Racoon
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Muslims often ask me questions like this - "Christians believe that Jesus is God. Christians believe that Jesus died, so Christians believe that God died......"

Mil99;75413082 said ….. Just summarise his arguments or reasoning which justifies how a omnipotent deity could ever die (or cease to exist). It's far more beneficial to respond and criticize eachother's reasoning rather than responding to a youtube video…….

The response is as follows: The bible says in John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Verse 3 then says All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word was by essence and nature God.

Verse 14 says And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth (this is Jesus)

Christians are not saying that God Himself, who is eternal and incorruptible died one day. The second person in the Trinity became flesh as an eternal sacrifice for our sins.


A Muslim might say God cannot enter into His creation, if you say 'can't' then you aren't you contradicting the Quran as in Sura 27 v 7

“(Remember) When Moses said unto his family: ‘Verily I perceive a fire; soon will I bring you news of it, or I will bring you a flaming brand, that you warm yourselves.” 8. “So when he came to it, a voice was heard: ‘Blessed is whoever is in the fire and whoever is about it, and Glory be to Allah, the Lord of the World.” 9. “O’ Moses! Verily, I am Allah, The Mighty, The Wise;”

If Allah can enter into His creation and speak out of a fire can't he enter His creation and speak out of human flesh?

This is where we can agree? But now you can ask but how can he die? The illustration given is as such:-

The Quran has two natures. The eternal Word of Allah, has no beginning and cannot be destroyed.

On the other-hand the Quran you read from is man made, from paper, ink and glue. If that Quran becomes old and is destroyed somehow, like any old book then the physical nature is destroyed but the eternal nature remains undestroyed.

Do you see the reasoning? Two natures, the eternal undestroyable nature and the physical nature that can be destroyed.

How is this so very different from the Christian claim that the eternal Word of God became flesh, entered creation as Jesus of Nazareth?

Jesus's perishable human nature could die but His divine eternal nature could not die.



Here is the video 10 minute explanation.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM0Pjbkp3E4

Any questions ?
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k.n.h.
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:2euk48l:
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Mil99
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(Original post by Racoon)
x
(Just to inform you I didn't watch the video).

However, I fail to see how any omnipotent and omniscient deity could ever cease existing, even temporarily. It's inherently contradictory because otherwise said being could not be described as infinite.
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the bear
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yes Our Saviour Jesus harrowed the depths of hell to save us from sin and death.
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gjd800
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Ask Nietzsche.
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Racoon
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(Original post by Mil99)
(Just to inform you I didn't watch the video).

However, I fail to see how any omnipotent and omniscient deity could ever cease existing, even temporarily. It's inherently contradictory because otherwise said being could not be described as infinite.

It's only 10 minutes.
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adamantacademic
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(Original post by the bear)
yes Our Saviour Jesus harrowed the depths of hell to save us from sin and death.
Wow the God of the trinity is inherently unjust as his human counterpart has to bear the burden of humanity's sins.
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Mil99
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(Original post by Racoon)
It's only 10 minutes.
Just summarise his arguments or reasoning which justifies how a omnipotent deity could ever die (or cease to exist).

It's far more beneficial to respond and criticize eachother's reasoning rather than responding to a youtube video.
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the bear
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(Original post by adamantacademic)
Wow the God of the trinity is inherently unjust as his human counterpart has to bear the burden of humanity's sins.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...r_Leighton.jpg

arise Sir Edge of Edgerley
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Racoon
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Christians don't judge anyone.

Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, “Let me remove the speck from your eye”; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:1–5)
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Drummond
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(Original post by Racoon)
Any questions ?
I must hold my hands up and say that i know very little about the koran. Now that verse which is quoted from the koran in the video, sounds like a similar encounter which Moses had with God in Exodus 3. When God speaks with Moses He identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so my my question is, not only to Racoon but to Muslims.

When Muslims speak to Allah, do they believe they are talking to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? So is Allah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in a Muslim's mind? And what does 'Allah' translate to?

Just want to understand if Christianity and Islam both identify with the same God first off please.
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Racoon
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(Original post by Mil99)
Just summarise his arguments or reasoning which justifies how a omnipotent deity could ever die (or cease to exist).

It's far more beneficial to respond and criticize eachother's reasoning rather than responding to a youtube video.
The response is as follows:

The bible says in John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, andthe Word was God.

Verse 3 then says All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word was by essence and nature God.

Verse 14 says And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth (this is Jesus)

Christians are not saying that God Himself, who is eternal and incorruptible died one day.

The second person in the Trinity became flesh as an eternal sacrifice for our sins.

A Muslim might say God cannot enter into His creation, if you say 'can't' then you are contradicting the Quran as in Sura 27 v 7 “(Remember) When Moses said unto his family: ‘Verily I perceive a fire; soon will I bring you news of it, or I will bring you a flaming brand, that you warm yourselves.” 8. “So when he came to it, a voice was heard: ‘Blessed is whoever is in the fire and whoever is about it, and Glory be to Allah, the Lord of the World.” 9. “O’ Moses! Verily, I am Allah, The Mighty, The Wise;”

If Allah can enter into His creation and speak out of a fire can't he enter His creation and speak out of human flesh?

This is where we can agree? But now you can ask but how can he die?

The illustration given is as such:-

The Quran has two natures. The eternal Word of Allah, has no beginning and cannot be destroyed. On the other-hand the Quran you read from is man made, from paper, ink and glue.

If that Quran becomes old and is destroyed somehow, like any old book then the physical nature is destroyed but the eternal nature remains undestroyed.

Do you see the reasoning? Two natures, the eternal undestroyable nature and the physical nature that can be destroyed.

How is this so very different from the Christian claim that the eternal Word of God became flesh, entered creation as Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus's perishable human nature could die but His divine eternal nature could not die.
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Drummond
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(Original post by Mil99)
(Just to inform you I didn't watch the video).

However, I fail to see how any omnipotent and omniscient deity could ever cease existing, even temporarily. It's inherently contradictory because otherwise said being could not be described as infinite.
Why is it difficult to understand? Abraham died but he is not dead, his spirit sleeps, until he is awoken to eternal life. Any true believer alive now will be persecuted and more than likely be killed before being awoken for eternal life. God was showing us, look this happened to me, as it will happen to you also, He is saying, look I am dead, and now look again, I am back alive, as it will happen to you, so know that I have been through, what you will go through even before you, and gain encouragement from that.

Do you know that some alive will not see death? God is showing that for those that die, they will still live, that's all. Like as He died and lived, we shall die and live, but He didn't die die, He slept, like we will sleep. He was showing us, an example. If God died died, then Abraham died died. But Abraham didn't die die, he just died and slept to be awoken. It was the same for God as it shall be for us and those who went before us. Its love.

Don't get caught up on death being eternal unless you're a non-believer. Death has to happen for most of us before the resurrection. Its sleeping really and most of us are not shy of a bit of kip are we?
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Mil99
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(Original post by Racoon)
The response is as follows:

The bible says in John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, andthe Word was God.

Verse 3 then says All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word was by essence and nature God.
So thus far, do you believe the "word" is God or two separate deities?

(Original post by Racoon)
Verse 14 says And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth (this is Jesus)
So at this point, the "word" or God was transformed into a human being or a human being was created with similar characteristics of the "word" ?

(Original post by Racoon)
Christians are not saying that God Himself, who is eternal and incorruptible died one day.
Well the title states "how can God die" ?
(Original post by Racoon)
The second person in the Trinity became flesh as an eternal sacrifice for our sins.
You have to make the distinction whether the human being was the "word" or not.

If he was, then an omnipotent being died which cannot be possible.
If he wasn't, then God didn't die and your title is misleading.
(Original post by Racoon)
A Muslim might say God cannot enter into His creation, if you say 'can't' then you are contradicting the Quran as in Sura 27 v 7 “(Remember) When Moses said unto his family: ‘Verily I perceive a fire; soon will I bring you news of it, or I will bring you a flaming brand, that you warm yourselves.” 8. “So when he came to it, a voice was heard: ‘Blessed is whoever is in the fire and whoever is about it, and Glory be to Allah, the Lord of the World.” 9. “O’ Moses! Verily, I am Allah, The Mighty, The Wise;”

If Allah can enter into His creation and speak out of a fire can't he enter His creation and speak out of human flesh?
This doesn't prove that God was the fire, but merely a fire was seen and he heard a voice.

It is most likely that a voice was created to deliver those specific words, akin to how the fire was created.
(Original post by Racoon)
This is where we can agree? But now you can ask but how can he die?
The illustration given is as such:-

The Quran has two natures. The eternal Word of Allah, has no beginning and cannot be destroyed. On the other-hand the Quran you read from is man made, from paper, ink and glue.

If that Quran becomes old and is destroyed somehow, like any old book then the physical nature is destroyed but the eternal nature remains undestroyed.

Do you see the reasoning? Two natures, the eternal undestroyable nature and the physical nature that can be destroyed.
The Quran doesn't have a physical nature, the book and ink are merely use to store it. For it to be the Quran's nature, it must be something directly within or affecting the Quran. For instance, you have information (X) which is stored in mediums Y and Z. If Y or Z are changed, the original information X has not changed but rather only Y and Z has.

The Quran is knowledge from God transcribed to man. The book or ink is merely a method of storing said knowledge. When it was first revealed, it wasn't transcribed into a book and therefore it cannot be a "nature" of the Quran.

(Original post by Racoon)
How is this so very different from the Christian claim that the eternal Word of God became flesh, entered creation as Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus's perishable human nature could die but His divine eternal nature could not die.
The claims are that an omnipotent God transformed into a human (which is impossible because then, he is no longer God due to not being infallible) who died.

A human being cannot be equal to an omnipotent deity and by your own admission, "God himself did not die" and therefore the being that died and God aren't equal. Since God is omnipotent and infallible, the being that died cannot be greater than him and therefore must be inferior and thus not God (or not infallible or omnipotent).
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Mil99
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(Original post by Drummond)
Why is it difficult to understand?
Because it's a contention that logically cannot be justified.

An omnipotent deity cannot die otherwise it cannot be omnipotent and timeless (since it has ceased to exist).
(Original post by Drummond)
Do you know that some alive will not see death? God is showing that for those that die, they will still live, that's all. Like as He died and lived, we shall die and live, but He didn't die die, He slept, like we will sleep
So you don't believe God died but is sleeping???

Perhaps it's ideal to use words that accurately communicate your beliefs because after reading your post, I don't have a clue what you're saying.
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gjd800
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Dialetheism has the answers.
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Racoon
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(Original post by Mil99)
So thus far, do you believe the "word" is God or two separate deities? .......

If he was, then an omnipotent being died which cannot be possible.
If he wasn't, then God didn't die and your title is misleading.
This doesn't prove that God was the fire, but merely a fire was seen and he heard a voice.

It is most likely that a voice was created to deliver those specific words, akin to how the fire was created.

The Quran doesn't have a physical nature, the book and ink are merely use to store it.

The Quran is knowledge from God transcribed to man. The book or ink is merely a method of storing said knowledge. When it was first revealed, it wasn't transcribed into a book and therefore it cannot be a "nature" of the Quran......
Christians believe in one God. If we believed in many gods then we would be going against the bible's teachings. Here is a link that shows 20 bible verses which proclaim the truth about there being one God.

http://biblereasons.com/one-god/

We know God does not lie.

Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else, nor share my praise with carved idols.

Jude 1:4 ....... ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ....

People who do not understand the truth of the bible, pervert it, denying the deity of Jesus.

Above you said

"....... This doesn't prove that God was the fire, but merely a fire was seen and he heard a voice. It is most likely that a voice was created to deliver those specific words, akin to how the fire was created".

Please reread the verse, it clearly says Allah is speaking from the fire or are you doubting this?

“(Remember) When Moses said unto his family: ‘Verily I perceive a fire; soon will I bring you news of it, or I will bring you a flaming brand, that you warm yourselves.” 8. “So when he came to it, a voice was heard: ‘Blessed is whoever is in the fire and whoever is about it, and Glory be to Allah, the Lord of the World.” 9. “O’ Moses! Verily, I am Allah, The Mighty, The Wise;”

It's like Allah is reprimanding Moses in the end, saying O Moses.... listen to me, it is me!!!!!

Above you said

"The Quran doesn't have a physical nature, the book and ink are merely use to store it."

? isn't that which it is being stored in physical, isn't it a physical book you can pick up and read?


Again, you said above "The Quran is knowledge from God transcribed to man. The book or ink is merely a method of storing said knowledge. When it was first revealed, it wasn't transcribed into a book and therefore it cannot be a "nature" of the Quran......"

I'm not sure what you are saying here, could you explain this further. Thanks
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Drummond
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(Original post by Mil99)
Because it's a contention that logically cannot be justified.

An omnipotent deity cannot die otherwise it cannot be omnipotent and timeless (since it has ceased to exist).
So you don't believe God died but is sleeping???

Perhaps it's ideal to use words that accurately communicate your beliefs because after reading your post, I don't have a clue what you're saying.
Martha and Mary's brother Lazarus died, so his flesh was dead, but his spirit slept. So when God raised Lazarus, he was the same person as before, but he had been dead. This is an example, or proof, that when believers die, their spirit sleeps. God allowed Lazarus to die, and then raised Lazarus so that believers can trust He will raise them too.

God is showing that the flesh, our physical bodies, are meaningless and for us not to be fearful of our flesh dying, because God is in complete charge of our spirits, when we are dead. So He can raise us and give us new bodies, but we will still be Mil99 for example.
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Mil99
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(Original post by Racoon)
Christians believe in one God. If we believed in many gods then we would be going against the bible's teachings.
Okay, so in John 1, where it says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, andthe Word was God", you believe that the "word" and "God" are the same entity or deity.

Later, in verse 14, as you mentioned it says "And the Word was made flesh" and this "word" died. Therefore, you believe that God (an omnipotent deity) was transformed into "flesh" (human body) which died. It therefore follows that you do infact believe God died, contrary to what you said previously :
(Original post by Racoon)
Christians are not saying that God Himself, who is eternal and incorruptible died one day.
If you believe in 1 deity who was transformed into a human who died, you have to believe that God died.

Hence, a contradictory and flawed proposition.
(Original post by Racoon)
Above you said

"....... This doesn't prove that God was the fire, but merely a fire was seen and he heard a voice. It is most likely that a voice was created to deliver those specific words, akin to how the fire was created".

Please reread the verse, it clearly says Allah is speaking from the fire or are you doubting this?

“(Remember) When Moses said unto his family: ‘Verily I perceive a fire; soon will I bring you news of it, or I will bring you a flaming brand, that you warm yourselves.” 8. “So when he came to it, a voice was heard: ‘Blessed is whoever is in the fire and whoever is about it, and Glory be to Allah, the Lord of the World.” 9. “O’ Moses! Verily, I am Allah, The Mighty, The Wise;”
Yes, God created a fire and created a voice (informing him of who made the fire) and to allay Moses' fears. This obviously included telling Moses that God is with him and that he was responsible for the event/fire.

It makes perfect sense to me (from a holistic consideration of the Quran).
(Original post by Racoon)
Above you said

"The Quran doesn't have a physical nature, the book and ink are merely use to store it."

? isn't that which it is being stored in physical, isn't it a physical book you can pick up and read?
The Quran is God's knowledge and the book is a medium to store it for ourselves.

As previously reasoned, it's not a "nature" of the Quran.
(Original post by Racoon)
Again, you said above "The Quran is knowledge from God transcribed to man. The book or ink is merely a method of storing said knowledge. When it was first revealed, it wasn't transcribed into a book and therefore it cannot be a "nature" of the Quran......"

I'm not sure what you are saying here, could you explain this further. Thanks
The revelation of the Quran was not through a miraculous book that was sent down but rather is was directly revealed to Mohammed, not through writing. (This came afterwards).

Since the book and ink is merely for preservation and storage and thus a medium, it isn't considered a "nature" of the Quran.
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assassinbunny123
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can someone explain to me why Jesus died for our sins. Did he die for the sins of the people in the roman ERA or just died for the sins of the entire human race. If he died cause of the first reason then thats pretty arrogant of him, i mean what about us then huh where is your love and compassion now? furthermore if he died for the entire human race pre and post the roman era then i think its safe to say Christians can do whatever the **** they want, go forth and rape every single women you desire cuz you wont be punished for it, go murder anyone you want, go steal, lie, etc.... you'll enter heaven anyway, why waste your time here when you can just commit suicide and go straight to heaven where you have now limits whats so ever. The only person being punished is Jesus the person who God purposely created to deal with our sins. God is something that can do whatever it wants when ever it wants, yes he is described as merciful but only if you're sincere enough and even then it can decide to forgive or punish you.
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