That Bearded Man
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(Original post by Okorange)
How much do they work? I am genuinely interested in this answer. For example, how much do FY2s work, a General Surgery registrar vs a Core Medicine trainee ST2?
Honestly not sure, talking >60hrs a week though. Including locuming/nights.

Plus no sick leave, officially having no employer (so no employer responsibilities) and individual liability in hospital
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Helenia
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(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Honestly not sure, talking >60hrs a week though. Including locuming/nights.

Plus no sick leave, officially having no employer (so no employer responsibilities) and individual liability in hospital
Erm, where are you getting this from? Doctors do have to (officially) follow the EWTD; it is possible to opt out but rotas must be compliant. Some weeks will have more than 60 hours but there are compensatory rest days to make up for it. Locuming is optional. Though there is a LOT of unofficial extra hours done in many specialties, which is a longstanding issue.

As a hospital doctor, you have the same rights as any NHS employee to sick/maternity leave. The situation in GP is a bit different.
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That Bearded Man
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(Original post by Helenia)
Erm, where are you getting this from? Doctors do have to (officially) follow the EWTD; it is possible to opt out but rotas must be compliant. Some weeks will have more than 60 hours but there are compensatory rest days to make up for it. Locuming is optional. Though there is a LOT of unofficial extra hours done in many specialties, which is a longstanding issue.

As a hospital doctor, you have the same rights as any NHS employee to sick/maternity leave. The situation in GP is a bit different.
Is it not a case that surgery and ED are needed to avoid EWTD? I know the BMJ referred to the issues of the EWTD in surgery and my sis was obliged to sign it (ED.) I defer to you and your experiences.

I think Adam Kay summed it up well with the general expectation that you find someone to "swap" with you if you're ill, alot of pressure not to use locums.

How many hours do you work (average, and most/least)

Sure the Chris Day case specifically highlights the debate over whether NHS Employers or your NHS Trust officially hire you, hence the issues of whistleblowing protection - including maternity leave.
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nexttime
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(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Honestly not sure, talking >60hrs a week though. Including locuming/nights.

Plus no sick leave, officially having no employer (so no employer responsibilities) and individual liability in hospital
Yeah i too think you need to check your sources on this one.

Rotas must be less than 48 hours per week on average. Do people have to stay longer than this? Yes absolutely. But the new contract seems to have very much decreased the expectation that you stay behind doing unpaid overtime and if its longer than 20 mins or so you can report it and expect to either get some extra pay or some compensatory time off. You are expected to do research, audits and prepare for (very hard) exams in your own time that i guess you could argue counts as hundreds of hours of unpaid work, but that's not unique to medicine if we're honest.

You do have sick leave in line with national laws. Your don't get much as an FY1 and if you take too much they will hold you back a year but it increases with time and you do have it.

Not sure about 'officially having no employer' - other than the specific case of whilstlblowing and Chris Day, and when you apply for a mortgage, this makes no actual day to day difference.

Liability is a complex issue. You are liable for your decisions and as cases like Bawa-Garba have shown, if your employer screws you over by giving you an impossible workload, then you make some mistakes as a result, you can still be struck off and sent to prison for criminal negligence, whilst your employing managers sit pretty.

On the other hand, if you are sued under civil law for x-million pounds - its your trust that pays, not you. You only need medical liability insurance if you are doing private work.
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That Bearded Man
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(Original post by nexttime)
Yeah i too think you need to check your sources on this one.

Rotas must be less than 48 hours per week on average. Do people have to stay longer than this? Yes absolutely. But the new contract seems to have very much decreased the expectation that you stay behind doing unpaid overtime and if its longer than 20 mins or so you can report it and expect to either get some extra pay or some compensatory time off. You are expected to do research, audits and prepare for (very hard) exams in your own time that i guess you could argue counts as hundreds of hours of unpaid work, but that's not unique to medicine if we're honest.

You do have sick leave in line with national laws. Your don't get much as an FY1 and if you take too much they will hold you back a year but it increases with time and you do have it.

Not sure about 'officially having no employer' - other than the specific case of whilstlblowing and Chris Day, and when you apply for a mortgage, this makes no actual day to day difference.

Liability is a complex issue. You are liable for your decisions and as cases like Bawa-Garba have shown, if your employer screws you over by giving you an impossible workload, then you make some mistakes as a result, you can still be struck off and sent to prison for criminal negligence, whilst your employing managers sit pretty.

On the other hand, if you are sued under civil law for x-million pounds - its your trust that pays, not you. You only need medical liability insurance if you are doing private work.
I suspect there is a great amount of variation between Trusts pressure to stay longer/work without locums
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nexttime
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(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Is it not a case that surgery and ED are needed to avoid EWTD? I know the BMJ referred to the issues of the EWTD in surgery and my sis was obliged to sign it (ED.)
You legally cannot be forced to sign anything regarding EWTD.

Now you might be pressured to yes. That's a difficult issue but personally i have never felt the amount of pressure has been anything other than light and i have never agreed to do any extra work I did not spontaneously volunteer for.

I think Adam Kay summed it up well with the general expectation that you find someone to "swap" with you if you're ill,
I have never experienced that. It would be illegal to expect someone to work back sick time.
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ecolier
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I am not here to argue with the clearly incorrect poster, and I am here to offer my experience.

Base hours Monday - Friday 9-5pm
On-call hours 1 night (non-resident) per week
approximately 1 weekend per 4-5 weeks (day time resident)

Resident = you have to be on site. Non-resident = you can be at home, but should be near the hospital in case you are called in.

If you worked any extra hours under the new contract, you may be able to exceptionally report them to claim your time / hours back. (so in complete opposition to what the incorrect poster said)
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Helenia
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(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Is it not a case that surgery and ED are needed to avoid EWTD? I know the BMJ referred to the issues of the EWTD in surgery and my sis was obliged to sign it (ED.) I defer to you and your experiences.

I think Adam Kay summed it up well with the general expectation that you find someone to "swap" with you if you're ill, alot of pressure not to use locums.

How many hours do you work (average, and most/least)

Sure the Chris Day case specifically highlights the debate over whether NHS Employers or your NHS Trust officially hire you, hence the issues of whistleblowing protection - including maternity leave.
There have been many concerns about how the EWTD impacts training, and it is certainly well-known that some specialties will put pressure on you to come in on off days etc for extra experience or just because they're short staffed. It's not universal though, and no department can force trainees to opt out of the EWTD.

I have never known anyone have to swap to cover sick leave.

The Chris Day case is complicated, though does highlight some important issues about who is responsible for junior doctors when it comes to things like whistleblowing, but is specific to that and how it impacts on training. For day-to-day things like pay, sick leave and maternity leave, your current hospital is your employer and you have the same rights as everyone else. Maternity pay can be a bit faffy if a pregnancy falls across two different rotations, as different trusts have to pay different components, but despite some admin faff doctors are still entitled to the time off and the appropriate pay (8 weeks 90%, 18 weeks 50% + SMP, 13 weeks SMP only, then a further 13 weeks unpaid).

As for my hours, I work less than full time, so only do 60% of what a full-time trainee in my specialty would do. My normal day is 8am-6pm, I work 3 days a week while a FT doc would do all 5. In terms of out-of-hours, on my rota, in every 8 weeks a full-time trainee would do 7 long day shifts (8am-9pm), including a weekend, and 7 nights (8pm-9am) including a weekend - both usually split into blocks of 2, 3 or 4 long shifts. I do 60% of that. There are then compensatory days off after the antisocial shifts, and there's enough of those to bring the average total hours down to <48, also taking into account the fact that as our days are long, a "normal" week is actually 50 hours. As a LTFT trainee I average about 28 hours a week on the rota.

Anaesthetics is actually not too bad for unofficial overtime - cases sometimes overrun and you have to stay late, but often either the on-call team will take over or the boss will send you home. ICU, where I also spend quite a bit of time, can be a different matter.
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