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wanderer
Plenty of philosophers would deny that that's what philosophy is about. Even continental ones.
Are you referring about philosophers or philosophy professors?:wink:
Reply 21
CartesianFart
Why not educate yourself? Why go to a University and have someone else teach you philosophy when it is obvious that it can be self-taught?

I kind of find it funny that a subject about "self-knowing" or "know thy-self" requires someone else besides you to know what it is about how to know what you want to know about who you really are.


So that's why so many Philosophers STUDIED philosophy? Philosophy isn't only about self knowing; theories of "personal identity" can be applied to anyone.

How about, I'd rather study Philosophy at university than engineering... what are you studying?

A
CartesianFart
Why not educate yourself? Why go to a University and have someone else teach you philosophy when it is obvious that it can be self-taught?

I kind of find it funny that a subject about "self-knowing" or "know thy-self" requires someone else besides you to know what it is about how to know what you want to know about who you really are.

I do wish you'd stop talking about things you're obviously not even vaguely familiar with.
Reply 23
CartesianFart
Are you referring about philosophers or philosophy professors?:wink:


Just people who know what they're talking about.
MetalA
Philosophy isn't only about self knowing; theories of "personal identity" can be applied to anyone.
Then tell me what other categories that Philosophy can give us.


The Solitary Reaper
I do wish you'd stop talking about things you're obviously not even vaguely familiar with.

What are these "things" that I am not vaguely familiar with?:confused:

And what do you mean "not vaguely?" Does this mean that I am not capable of being vague?:biggrin:

wanderer
Just people who know what they're talking about.

And who are these "people?" I would like to meet someone for a change that happen to know what they are talking about.
Reply 25
Most philosophy professors, research fellows, lecturers, graduate students, undergraduate students and informed amateurs should do the trick.
Cartesian, how can you make an informed decision if you're not informed about some of the possible answers? Sure, I can sit here and think for myself. However it is through learning about the possible tools and previous methology - the previous convincing arguments - that one manages to acquire a decent and informed outlook on the world.

You're essentially saying, "You don't need an internation relations degree to understand how different countries act". Well, quite; but who are the people in the media commenting upon what they think Chinas response to North Koreas aggression towards the West would be? People who have studied the internation relations and history of those countries during a recent period.

tml :smile:
Ethelred the Unready
Cartesian, how can you make an informed decision if you're not informed about some of the possible answers?
This is an interesting question. How can I answer that?!

Well for starters, I can assume the answers as long I am informed on what is the premise is about. Of course you say that being "informed" on what decision to make is grossly misleading, and quite erroneous. Why? It is the very act of the decision that shows how informed you are while stating the answer.


Sure, I can sit here and think for myself. However it is through learning about the possible tools and previous methology - the previous convincing arguments - that one manages to acquire a decent and informed outlook on the world.

All you do is find a new language. That is - language of philosophy.

You may think you are thinking for yourself, but you are only being one of the many bearers of that philosophical language. It is not your own thoughts at all and you are only contributing your own Idiomatic style from the standard usage of that field.


You're essentially saying, "You don't need an internation relations degree to understand how different countries act". Well, quite; but who are the people in the media commenting upon what they think Chinas response to North Koreas aggression towards the West would be? People who have studied the internation relations and history of those countries during a recent period.
You can study international relations and never have had step into a shoe of a person that actually participate in international relations: such as people who are by trade are diplomats; a representative of a multinational corporation; a person who works for the Secretary of State; an errand boy in some remote embassy in some backward State, and other positions and places where people actually works in international relations. The others, are simply bull**** artist that never did this profession and somehow are hired by corporate media because they don't care about "real" life experiences, but just want someone to know how to talk about it.

Now, there is an exeception of former professionals who had engaged in international relations and change career as a television personality, a newspaper columnist, and other sorts. But, it is mainly a limited expertise since they no longer practice the profession and are totally out of touch with their fellow contemporaries who are still in present practising the profession. They are speculative mongerers with experiences backing their reputation, I say!

:smile:
CartesianFart
This is an interesting question. How can I answer that?!

Well for starters, I can assume the answers as long I am informed on what is the premise is about. Of course you say that being "informed" on what decision to make is grossly misleading, and quite erroneous. Why? It is the very act of the decision that shows how informed you are while stating the answer.

But do you not concede that this talk of "premises" is something that most [indeed, not all] non-studiers of philosophers might not understand? Philosophy is partly about consolidating beliefs and giving us the tools and methodology to tackle such big questions. You can see the history of thought and how other academics answered the question. By studying and learing such a broad subject you are instantaneously in a better position to ponder upon the world we live in - equipped with great analytical tools and an informed perspective. Studying philosophy is certainly not a redundant proposition, as you seem to be implying. Correct me if I'm wrong, by all means.
All you do is find a new language. That is - language of philosophy.

You may think you are thinking for yourself, but you are only being one of the many bearers of that philosophical language. It is not your own thoughts at all and you are only contributing your own Idiomatic style from the standard usage of that field.

Using such an analogy, when I think of a new idea, through the fault of using the language of English through which to communicate it, then suddenly it is not my idea. Indeed, to state that "Edward the Confessor gave an oath of fealty to William the Conqueror" isn't my own opinion just because such an opinion has been made in the past is a ridiculous idea. I may be drawn towards a certain philosopher's way of thinking. Does that mean I'm not thinking for myself? Of course not! I'm merely informing myself of the different routes someone has taken to reach a conclusion, applying my own tools that logic has given me, and then perhaps agreeing with aspects of a certain philosopher.

You can't enhance your own beliefs without looking at other philosopher's opinions that may challenge your own. It would only lead to ignorance.

You're still making your own decisions, but merely broadening your mind.
You can study international relations and never have had step into a shoe of a person that actually participate in international relations: such as people who are by trade are diplomats; a representative of a multinational corporation; a person who works for the Secretary of State; an errand boy in some remote embassy in some backward State, and other positions and places where people actually works in international relations.

Need a student of philosophy be a "philosopher"? Need a student of international relations be a "diplomat"? My analogy still applies. Students of international relations have a better insight into the world of that subject. The same thing applies to students of philosophy.

An international relations student may not be a diplomat. However how does it logically follow that he's not more informed about international relations than an ordinary person? Hey, perhaps even the diplomat himself had studied international relations, politics or another related area. Again, perhaps not... But that's rather irrelevant to my point, I would have thought...
The others, are simply bull**** artist that never did this profession and somehow are hired by corporate media because they don't care about "real" life experiences, but just want someone to know how to talk about it.

Now, there is an exeception of former professionals who had engaged in international relations and change career as a television personality, a newspaper columnist, and other sorts. But, it is mainly a limited expertise since they no longer practice the profession and are totally out of touch with their fellow contemporaries who are still in present practising the profession. They are speculative mongerers with experiences backing their reputation, I say!

Hmmm. This seems to be more of a rather uninformed opinion to confirm your own point rather than anything else...

Melancholy :smile:
CartesianFart
Why not educate yourself? Why go to a University and have someone else teach you philosophy when it is obvious that it can be self-taught?

I kind of find it funny that a subject about "self-knowing" or "know thy-self" requires someone else besides you to know what it is about how to know what you want to know about who you really are.


By this reasoning, no-one should bother to study English Literature.

'duh, why go to university to learn how to read books'

You KNOW there is more to all of this than what you pretend to think.
Ethelred the Unready
But do you not concede that this talk of "premises" is something that most [indeed, not all] non-studiers of philosophers might not understand?

What make you think that philosophers understand this talk of "premises?" And, what make you think that non-studiers of philosophers can be understood by philosophers?

Philosophy is partly about consolidating beliefs and giving us the tools and methodology to tackle such big questions.
So you are saying that philosophy is not about coming up with new set of questions instead of questions that has been already exhausted?

Maybe you should consider a different school to study in.:wink:

You can see the history of thought and how other academics answered the question. By studying and learing such a broad subject you are instantaneously in a better position to ponder upon the world we live in - equipped with great analytical tools and an informed perspective. Studying philosophy is certainly not a redundant proposition, as you seem to be implying. Correct me if I'm wrong, by all means.
Philosophy is a redundant proposition? Ha! After reading all of your quotes glorifying past philosophers (academics), you have nothing better to say about them, or even give me any reason to believe why should I read some of their works. All you talk about, vaguely, that it gives you some powers on pondering about the world and such vainglory prizes that it can give you.

Using such an analogy, when I think of a new idea, through the fault of using the language of English through which to communicate it, then suddenly it is not my idea. Indeed, to state that "Edward the Confessor gave an oath of fealty to William the Conqueror" isn't my own opinion just because such an opinion has been made in the past is a ridiculous idea.
Your problem is that you are restricting the word "opinion" as something to be a property of someone in the past. So, in fact, when you utter the same expression of that past opinion, all it does is change the time and place of that opinion by a different individual who has uttered it. And that different individual is you.

I may be drawn towards a certain philosopher's way of thinking. Does that mean I'm not thinking for myself?

No. You are thinking for yourself and not through the philosopher. Reading of other philosophers only give you the sense of how you interpret it. The meaning you derive from whatever paticular philosophical literature that you had read, is something of you deferring the text's meaning. And that my friend, is a fiction as well. Since you cannot know what the thoughts are from the mere words that is written down by the author. It is your own thoughts trying to make sense of it in your own idiosyncratic way.

Of course not! I'm merely informing myself of the different routes someone has taken to reach a conclusion, applying my own tools that logic has given me, and then perhaps agreeing with aspects of a certain philosopher.
The routes, the tools of your logic, and the opinions of whatever philosopher you had read, is your own.

You can't enhance your own beliefs without looking at other philosopher's opinions that may challenge your own. It would only lead to ignorance.
I can say it even better. You can enhance your own beliefs as long as you acknowledge that when you read of another philosopher's opinions, they are your own set opinions of what the Philosopher's opinions really means to you.

You're still making your own decisions, but merely broadening your mind.
I say: You are making your own interpretations, and sharpening your mind in order to broaden it.:smile:

Need a student of philosophy be a "philosopher"? Need a student of international relations be a "diplomat"? My analogy still applies. Students of international relations have a better insight into the world of that subject. The same thing applies to students of philosophy.
Then how would you define a "student?" Is there a criterion, or a set of criterions, that can differentiate on what is a good student and a bad one?

An international relations student may not be a diplomat. However how does it logically follow that he's not more informed about international relations than an ordinary person? Hey, perhaps even the diplomat himself had studied international relations, politics or another related area. Again, perhaps not... But that's rather irrelevant to my point, I would have thought...
It is relevant because it is not completely defined yet on how a student acquires the knowledge of international relations while studying it; and that the student not being a practioner of the craft, like a diplomat does on a regular basis.

Hmmm. This seems to be more of a rather uninformed opinion to confirm your own point rather than anything else...
How can my point be something of a uninform opinion?



Oddjob39A
By this reasoning, no-one should bother to study English Literature.
Your deduction is not what I am aiming at.

'duh, why go to university to learn how to read books'

Is this a question or a reactionary response of something I've had said?

You KNOW there is more to all of this than what you pretend to think.
Pretend to think? How about I pretend to think of pretending that you are not serious of me pretending to have such a thought of me pretending?:biggrin:
CartesianFart
What make you think that philosophers understand this talk of "premises?" And, what make you think that non-studiers of philosophers can be understood by philosophers?

That's ridiculous. There is only one philosophical definition of a premise, and it is the premises in which we make sense of the world. What you're trying to achieve is meaningless - merely moving the linguistic meaning of a premise. You've rather proved my point, if you had studied philosophy you would have known what you were doing.
So you are saying that philosophy is not about coming up with new set of questions instead of questions that has been already exhausted?

Maybe you should consider a different school to study in.:wink:

No. Where did I say that; you're putting words into my mouth... If you can't respond to what I'm actually writing, don't just interpret your own meaning. Philosophy involves studying how people have thought about questions in the past whilst also adopting and consolidating your own methods on how to deal with questions that might apear in the future.

You seem to be forgetting, however, that a substantial size of philosophy is actually objective truth [or as near as we can get to it]. If you ever study formal logic you'll realise that philosophy can equip you with much the same skills as some elements of maths can - only in a different, unique style. For instance, at its base, 'statement A' cannot equal 'not statement A'. Sure, that's simply a basic example. But it extends from there. A true logician could look at a set of statements and instantly tell you, using his own method, whether the conclusion follows from its premise. It's a skill taught in philosophy. It sharpens the mind.

After this journey, you're better equipped to deal with questions such as "Is logic empirical?"

So, 'away' with your snide comments and actually go and read some philosophy before you comment.


Philosophy is a redundant proposition? Ha! After reading all of your quotes glorifying past philosophers (academics), you have nothing better to say about them, or even give me any reason to believe why should I read some of their works.

I had no idea I had to give you some "suggested readings". 'The problem/history of philosophy' was by Bertrand Russel, I think. Or try reading up about Wittgenstein. Philosophy often ventures into linguistics and many other subjects. If you lack any interest in philosophy and can't see "why you should read these philsopher's books" then maybe philosophy isn't for you. Me? I find it bloody interesting. But not only that, it encourages me to think more deeply about my own perspective. I would never even have thought about my position on anti-natalism if I'd never read Schopenhauer [sp?].
All you talk about, vaguely, that it gives you some powers on pondering about the world and such vainglory prizes that it can give you.

No, I've given concrete examples of where it can sharpen and enhance your mind. Stop being a disingenuous fool!

Your problem is that you are restricting the word "opinion" as something to be a property of someone in the past. So, in fact, when you utter the same expression of that past opinion, all it does is change the time and place of that opinion by a different individual who has uttered it. And that different individual is you.
Again, the fallacy here is merely one of a linguistical nature. Just because somebody had "owned" the opinion that global warming is happening does not mean that my opinion, after considering and using it based on the evidence that I've also "borrowed", is not my opinion.

An opinion is not a property, per se. It's not helpful to think of an opinion as that. The whole way you're viewing this is thus fundamentally flawed.

Imagine you wrote an essay. How, I ask, do you develop your writing style without the advice of others? How do you develop your science without getting a degree in it? How can you possibly claim certainty in your philosophical beliefs without constantly reading up on the subject, other people's criticisms on how you derive your conclusion from the premises, other schools of thought on the issue..?

This is merely a matter of substance, irregardless of the analytical style you develop [i.e. organising premises and thoughts into strictly structered sentences to derive at a conclusion]. It's very much an academic subject - and I really think you're being quite ignorant to question it's usefulness in the way you are doing. Ignorant because you're ignoring the many vital skills and overall depth and breadth of knowledge of thought over the ages that one acquires with a degree in philosophy.
No. You are thinking for yourself and not through the philosopher. Reading of other philosophers only give you the sense of how you interpret it. The meaning you derive from whatever paticular philosophical literature that you had read, is something of you deferring the text's meaning. And that my friend, is a fiction as well. Since you cannot know what the thoughts are from the mere words that is written down by the author. It is your own thoughts trying to make sense of it in your own idiosyncratic way.

This is completely ludicrous! There's no interpretation needed when a philosopher is being explicit in its message. They're not the writers of the Bible - you do know that, don't you?

The routes, the tools of your logic, and the opinions of whatever philosopher you had read, is your own.

I can say it even better. You can enhance your own beliefs as long as you acknowledge that when you read of another philosopher's opinions, they are your own set opinions of what the Philosopher's opinions really means to you.

No, I'm afraid there's no interpretation involved on our behalf. The philosopher says what he/she means, perhaps even using the premises and conclusion structure. There is very little subjective bias to get in the way of interpreting what they're saying. Indeed, there's no intepretation involved (unless you mean translating). That's just mindless dribble.
Then how would you define a "student?" Is there a criterion, or a set of criterions, that can differentiate on what is a good student and a bad one?

The definition of a student varies from dictionary to dictionary. Since humans make language and words and define their meaning through society and through context then we can, somehow, get along by understanding what a student is. A horrendous number of philosophical problems are caused by not understanding (or using slightly different) meanings of words - that's a Greek idea, and also the opinion of Wittgenstein.

What's good or bad? Well, that's a debate in itself. But what's great is that I've heard examples of how other people have answered the question. I know what a valid argument is. I'm equipped to have an informed opinion.
It is relevant because it is not completely defined yet on how a student acquires the knowledge of international relations while studying it; and that the student not being a practioner of the craft, like a diplomat does on a regular basis.

An international relations student gets handed the information from perhaps an expert in the field, or an ex-diplomat, or an informed person

A scientist gets his/her information from a qualified scientist.

etc. etc.

What is your problem?

Your deduction is not what I am aiming at.

The poster was quite aware of that; but he was just bringing your argument to its logical conclusion - clearly something you disagree with. QED.
Is this a question or a reactionary response of something I've had said?

Erm, read the part you quoted in context :smile:
Pretend to think? How about I pretend to think of pretending that you are not serious of me pretending to have such a thought of me pretending?:biggrin:

Ooo, there's the point - you missed it. :p:
Reply 32
Is anyone here discussing my question?
Reply 33
EtU, you might be going a bit far in some of that - there are a good few philosophers who would scoff at the phrase 'objective truth'. And the strength of logic is debatable too, as non-classical logics show. As to a logician having the magic ability to detect a valid inference - how about 'this object is entirely black, therefore it is not white'?
Wanderer, I was very careful to clearly include the phrase "as near to objective proof as we can realistically achieve". Logicians don't have a 'magic ability to detect validity'. Don't reduce the argument to one of ridicule. It's been a long time since I've studied formal logic, but hopefully if I mention AEIO (I think those were the letters) then that would mean something to you - that a certain combination were objectively/concretely valid and the others were not.

Some A are B.
All A are C
Some C are B.


^The above will always remain valid. That's a simplistic model, but one could equally and easily browse through an undergraduates handbook to find more cunning examples. This is merely one area of philosophy.

Then you've got non-classical logic - equipping with you many of the "tactics" that people may employ in a discussion unfairly. You can instantly recognise an ad (insert fallacy) , for example. Again, this is merely one branch of philosophy.

To answer your question: if something is all black then it cannot be white.

Your very mentioning of skeptism develops from an understanding of philosophy.

So, ultimately, no; I stand by everything I said and don't think I've gone too far at all.
Reply 35
You misunderstand me - I'm not joining in the attack on academic philosophy in the slightest. I just have issues with an overly strong characterisation of logic. Non-classical logics are alternatives to the traditional setup, not examples of bad argument styles. And if you accept the black/white inference, you have a bit of a problem - it's not a logical truth under classical logic (or, as far as I know, any non-classical setup).
1. What part of the characterisation do you disagree with?

2. I never stated that non-classical logics aren't alternatives to the "traditional setup", nor that they were merely examples of bad argument styles.

3. If something is all black (i.e. there is no other "colour" on it except black), then it follows that it cannot be white. Would you like to expand on why such an argument is problematic?

Something is all black, it therefore has no other colour on it apart from black because it is all black, thus it is black and not white.

How can that be falsified without dishonestly changing the linguistic meaning of the words? It would be a valid inference, but perhaps I'm missing something :hmmmm:.

I do recognise and understanding that you're not attacking philosophy, per se; that's not the source of the alleged "misunderstanding". :smile:
Reply 37
Ethelred the Unready
3. If something is all black (i.e. there is no other "colour" on it except black), then it follows that it cannot be white. Would you like to expand on why such an argument is problematic?

It doesn't follow.

1. X is black.
2. It is not the case that X is white.

is an invalid argument. It needs an implicit premise (ie. "if X is wholly black then X is not white). But, without the implicit premise it seems that it is informally valid. The problem Wanderer is getting at is that it's not formally valid, and it's perhaps a problem for formal logics if they can't capture that sort of inference.
Reply 38
1 - Depends, when you say that logic gets close to objective truth, do you mean statements like 'Under the rules of classical (or whatever other variety) logic, C follows from P1, P2 ... Pn' or statements like 'Logical analysis demonstrates that C follows from P1, P2, ... Pn'?

2 - Ok.

3 - It's problematic because that's not a logically valid inference, at least not formally. The argument in predicate calculus is pretty much Fa, therefore ¬Ga. It was this kind of problem that led Wittgenstein to abandon the logic-centred position he held in his early period.
Ethelred the Unready

3. If something is all black (i.e. there is no other "colour" on it except black), then it follows that it cannot be white. Would you like to expand on why such an argument is problematic?

Something is all black, it therefore has no other colour on it apart from black because it is all black, thus it is black and not white.

How can that be falsified without dishonestly changing the linguistic meaning of the words? It would be a valid inference, but perhaps I'm missing something :hmmmm:.


Yeah, you are missing something here. It's certainly true that 'X is red all over and blue all over' is false, but it's pretty hard to argue that this is analytically so (i.e. is the case because of the meanings of the words involved). Try and come up with a synonym for 'red' that will make the previous proposition logically inconsistent - it's pretty hard to do.

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