the global community has not done enough to stop the human right abuses

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Wolfram Alpha
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committed by North Korea

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04MR17
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Which human rights abuses do you believe have been committed by North Korea and is that due to the influence of the Western media over your thoughts?:holmes:
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tonedown
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All this talk of intervening with North Korea sounds like an excuse for war. It's reminiscent of the "weapons of mass destruction" and "freedom" talk. I may sound pessimistic but history repeats itself and I'm very much against any kind of "help".
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Napp
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Pray tell what exactly they could 'do' about them? They're already sanctioned to the hilt and invading them would do infinitely more harm than good.
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AperfectBalance
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China is worse, no one wants to do anything because they give us a lot of money and goods
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stoyfan
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Which human rights abuses do you believe have been committed by North Korea and is that due to the influence of the Western media over your thoughts?:holmes:
Well mandatory public executions, forced labour camps and the fact that you cannot express your opinions without the fear that you will be executed/imprisioned would be a great start.

Although there is unfortunately very little we can do.


(Original post by AperfectBalance)
China is worse, no one wants to do anything because they give us a lot of money and goods
It is quite a stretch to say that China is worse. Sure, it is a communist reigime, and they clamp down on media, and they restrict freedom of speech but NK does the same, and to a larger extent and more.
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AperfectBalance
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(Original post by stoyfan)
Well mandatory public executions, forced labour camps and the fact that you cannot express your opinions without the fear that you will be executed/imprisioned would be a great start.

Although there is unfortunately very little we can do.




It is quite a stretch to say that China is worse. Sure, it is a communist reigime, and they clamp down on media, and they restrict freedom of speech but NK does the same, and to a larger extent and more.
It is pretty probable that China harvests the organs of people that should not be persecuted, they have labour camps and everything they do is on a far wider scale than NK, they also have the power to influence the rest of the world for the worse
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stoyfan
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
It is pretty probable that China harvests the organs of people that should not be persecuted, they have labour camps and everything they do is on a far wider scale than NK, they also have the power to influence the rest of the world for the worse
The North Koreans carries out force abortions, they have abducted people from south korea, they are known to torture people, there are reports that some women are forced to draft into forced prostitution, forced resettlement in NK has occured and freedom of movement is so restricted that it is incredibly hard to go to another province.

Not to mention, they don't allow their citizen to travel abroad (unless for specific reasons) and if someone did manage to escape NK, then their family is in danger of being arrested and executed.
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AperfectBalance
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(Original post by stoyfan)
The North Koreans carries out force abortions, they have abducted people from south korea, they are known to torture people, there are reports that some women are forced to draft into forced prostitution, forced resettlement in NK has occured and freedom of movement is so restricted that it is incredibly hard to go to another province.

Not to mention, they don't allow their citizen to travel abroad (unless for specific reasons) and if someone did manage to escape NK, then their family is in danger of being arrested and executed.
China does all of those (bar prostitution? and the abduction) on a much larger scale, freedom of movement is heavily limited and moving from one province to another can sometimes be near impossible
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fallen_acorns
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
It is pretty probable that China harvests the organs of people that should not be persecuted, they have labour camps and everything they do is on a far wider scale than NK, they also have the power to influence the rest of the world for the worse
China also lifted more people out of poverty/starvation in the past few decades then all other nations combined.. its worth remembering with China, that whilst there are bad points, a western intervention would likely have been an absolute disaster for the billion+ people in China.

Countries need to make their own way, with support and condemnation.. actual intervention, militarily or covertly, has a very very dodgy track record of success.

Take China for example, it has become far far more westernised and liberal (if these are the metrics we use to measure success) over the past 20 years on its own, just due to the nature of a country developing and contending with what development brings. E.g. their new and huge urban-middle class are incredibly demanding and resourceful in getting what they want, and in pressuring their opinion. Whilst they can't do it democratically, it doesn't mean that the government does not have to respond to the will of the people.

I would honestly say the most reliable arpoach to countries who have methods we disagree with is to open up as much visability to our way of life, and prove that our ideas are worthy of fighting for and changing too. One of the biggest problems at the moment is that Chinese citizens are looking at the west and seeing a messy argumentative declining society. Support for the Chinese goverment has shot up here since brexit/trump/euro migration crisis. They look at trump, and then back to their own leader and say 'is their way really better?'

We need to show them our own values and what those values achieve.. my concern is that we don't even understand our own values any more.
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AperfectBalance
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
China also lifted more people out of poverty/starvation in the past few decades then all other nations combined.. its worth remembering with China, that whilst there are bad points, a western intervention would likely have been an absolute disaster for the billion+ people in China.

Countries need to make their own way, with support and condemnation.. actual intervention, militarily or covertly, has a very very dodgy track record of success.

Take China for example, it has become far far more westernised and liberal (if these are the metrics we use to measure success) over the past 20 years on its own, just due to the nature of a country developing and contending with what development brings. E.g. their new and huge urban-middle class are incredibly demanding and resourceful in getting what they want, and in pressuring their opinion. Whilst they can't do it democratically, it doesn't mean that the government does not have to respond to the will of the people.

I would honestly say the most reliable arpoach to countries who have methods we disagree with is to open up as much visability to our way of life, and prove that our ideas are worthy of fighting for and changing too. One of the biggest problems at the moment is that Chinese citizens are looking at the west and seeing a messy argumentative declining society. Support for the Chinese goverment has shot up here since brexit/trump/euro migration crisis. They look at trump, and then back to their own leader and say 'is their way really better?'

We need to show them our own values and what those values achieve.. my concern is that we don't even understand our own values any more.
You realise that a lot of the "raised out of poverty" statistics are either based on chinese measures or put those people just slightly above the serious poverty line, most people in China earn so little and are and held down by the government, china commits disgusting human rights abuses
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fallen_acorns
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
You realise that a lot of the "raised out of poverty" statistics are either based on chinese measures or put those people just slightly above the serious poverty line, most people in China earn so little and are and held down by the government, china commits disgusting human rights abuses
I live in china - in a city that was largely built in the last 20 years. Almost all of the families that I work with through my business now live in flats. They are not good flats, but they live in a flats that were in most cases given to them free by the goverment.. they have heating, food is cheap and afordable, their kids have far more opertuntiies then they do.. they have mobile phones, TVs, electric cockers, hot water, plumbed toilets etc.

The thing is that it hasn't been a slow change, all of these families, a single generation ago were living in huts in the countryside without any modern conveniance, most were hungry and desperate.. in this area in particular they had lived under japanese rule for years or had kids that grew up in the aftermath of it. (google Unit 731 - if your interested, it happened in the town I live in). I chat with older chinese people who tell me of the starvation and the poverty that they grew up with.

They know their life now isn't perfect, but for most of them they are incredibly thankful for the progress they have seen, and they are very very optimistic about their kids futures, and what their kids can go on to do.

They are also not blind to the bad actions of their goverment, but they also ackowledge the good - and there is a lot to be said about both.

-- Its always worth putting things into context when looking at how goverments are formed and why structures exist. Look at china before the communist party took control. They had lived under a weak isolationist leader for a long time..they had fallen behind all of their rivals, and then eventually they had been humiliated and destroyed by japan in the 2nd world war. After that a power vacume and a huge strong anger was present, and a massive desire to never get into these circumstancse again. So what happenned? the vacume was filled by a strong leader who had enough strength to unify china, push back the japanese, and restore control. Obviously the catch with that is a strong and ruthless leader will do awful things, and he sure did.

Since the cultural revolution ended though, China has been on a very positive course.. They take a different aproach then we do in the west, but most people here on the ground would argue that results justify means.
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stoyfan
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(Original post by AperfectBalance)
China does all of those (bar prostitution? and the abduction) on a much larger scale, freedom of movement is heavily limited and moving from one province to another can sometimes be near impossible
Freedom of movement isn't heavily limited as you can move from one province to the other with no problem. The only thing is that you need your passport but otherwise it shouldn't be a problem.

Additionally, as far as I am concerned China does not try to keep the vast majority of the population within its borders and they don't practice generational punishment.

Sure, China may not be great in terms of human rights, but it is definitely not worse than North Korea.
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AperfectBalance
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(Original post by stoyfan)
Freedom of movement isn't heavily limited as you can move from one province to the other with no problem. The only thing is that you need your passport but otherwise it shouldn't be a problem.

Additionally, as far as I am concerned China does not try to keep the vast majority of the population within its borders and they don't practice generational punishment.

Sure, China may not be great in terms of human rights, but it is definitely not worse than North Korea.
bar the hukou system that stops poor people from migrating and gettin g benefits from the """""""""""""""""communist""""""""""""""""""" regime.

For scale and abuse china easily wins
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