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Student at University of Edinburgh
University of Edinburgh

University of Edinburgh, any help?

So, I am starting this discussion simply because I would like to get some opinions about my situation with the University of Edinburgh.

First of all, I am a student from Switzerland that has unfortunately decided to take the Federal Swiss Matura as a high school diploma (I took this decision 4 years ago and I was not really planning to attend university outside my mother country at that time). I said unfortunately since not only it is very difficult to take good grades in this diploma (there are too many subjects to study and exams are too much demanding), but also because it is a very un-international qualification. The biggest problem is that UoE fellows think that they know my diploma when this is clearly not the case. Indeed, they have standard entry requirements for the Swiss Matura but they do not make distinctions between the different versions of the same. To make a long story short, the fact is that they are asking for grades that not even Oxbridge would ever ask for (and I am not joking about that, you can check their website later if you do not believe me). They came to the (absolutely wrong) conclusion that grade A in A-Level is the equivalent of a grade 6 in my diploma (this is the maximum grade), whereas the majority of the other universities tend to compare grade A* with a 5.5 (the mark that comes before 6 in my diploma). So they told me that I am not good for their entry requirements since I have 5.5 in Maths in the Federal Swiss Matura as they ask for an A in A-Level. In addition to that, I have also to say that I have undertaken the higher level examination in Maths and, to be honest, this one is more similar, in both difficulty and level of knowledge required, to FM A-Level papers rather than standard level ones (I have seen past papers online for both so I know what I am talking about).
The big problem is that the people working at UoE admission office do not really understand the above facts and subsequently told me that my qualification is insufficient. I have tried to convince them, but they are more stubborn than a wiener dog (or a mule, you choose the word here). So they basically told me that they would have considered my application only if I had decided to take AP Calculus BC this May, and so I have accepted their request. Anyway, I would just like to point out the fact that AP Calculus BC is an examination way easier (and I mean a lot) than the one I have undertaken for maths in my diploma... and they only ask for grade 4 out of 5 here. But hey never mind, I can waste an entire day of my life and also some money earned by my parents just to take a standardized test to prove to them that I know something about maths... why not after all? So this was the plan until 2 days ago. That day, they have contacted me and asked for a predicted grade in order to be able to further consider my application. As I will take AP Calculus BC only because they insisted on that I obviously can't give them predictions as no one is teaching me anything!!! They already knew that as I have told them I am no longer in high school in our email correspondence and they confirmed me that it was okay... and now it seems like they have completely changed their mind.
What should I do? Do I have to insist by saying that they do not really need predictions since I cannot give them anything? Should I contact my maths high school teacher and ask him to guess a number (he does not even know what APs papers are)? Or should I convince UoE friends that a 5.5 in maths higher level in my diploma is actually a very good grade and well beyond their minimum entry requirements, for example by sending them a copy of my examination papers and school program description for maths (even if these documents are only available in Italian)?
Any suggestion would be appreciated.

Ps. I would also like to say that the only reason I am still here dealing with them is that they are the only one (of my choices) that offer a joint degree in CS&Physics, and I would really appreciate being able to get in a program like that.

Ps2. I apologize for the long text, it was not my initial plan to write that much.
(edited 6 years ago)
Reply 1
Sorry, this is kind of off topic, but have you considered Durham's Computer Science and Physics programme? It comes under Natural Sciences: http://www.maths.dur.ac.uk/php/natural.sciences.php?dept1=comp&dept2=phys&programme=jh_bsc if so, I would recommend contacting admissions.

As for Edinburgh, I think you should say that since your old high school teacher doesn't know AP Calculus BC, he can't give a prediction, so you can't actually provide a predicted grade (as you're self studying it). It's honest and polite, and they should take it into consideration.
I agree (unless I'm missing something) it does seem a bit ridiculous, even Cambridge only requires 5.5 in three subjects! You might want to point that out, but I'm unsure if that's a good idea since they might well take it the wrong way (you'd be implying Cambridge is somehow better right to their faces).
Student at University of Edinburgh
University of Edinburgh
Reply 2
Thank you for your post @430

Original post by 430
Sorry, this is kind of off topic, but have you considered Durham's Computer Science and Physics programme? It comes under Natural Sciences: http://www.maths.dur.ac.uk/php/natural.sciences.php?dept1=comp&dept2=phys&programme=jh_bsc if so, I would recommend contacting admissions.

I have already sent out my UCAS application with 5 choices, so I assume that I can't also apply for that course. Am I wrong?
Anyway, thank you to let me know that.

Original post by 430
As for Edinburgh, I think you should say that since your old high school teacher doesn't know AP Calculus BC, he can't give a prediction, so you can't actually provide a predicted grade (as you're self studying it). It's honest and polite, and they should take it into consideration.

I have already told them almost exactly the same thing, but they do not seem to be able to understand.

Original post by 430
I agree (unless I'm missing something) it does seem a bit ridiculous, even Cambridge only requires 5.5 in three subjects! You might want to point that out, but I'm unsure if that's a good idea since they might well take it the wrong way (you'd be implying Cambridge is somehow better right to their faces).

Well Cambridge is Cambridge, they know it too.
Anyway, I have already hinted that in my email correspondence before having my application sent. They politely told me that every university has the right to choose for its entry requirements. I think that they forgot to say that every university has also the right (apparently, at least) to be inconsistent with entry requirements across different qualifications.
Reply 3
Original post by 534443
Thank you for your post @430


I have already sent out my UCAS application with 5 choices, so I assume that I can't also apply for that course. Am I wrong?
Anyway, thank you to let me know that.


I have already told them almost exactly the same thing, but they do not seem to be able to understand.


Well Cambridge is Cambridge, they know it too.
Anyway, I have already hinted that in my email correspondence before having my application sent. They politely told me that every university has the right to choose for its entry requirements. I think that they forgot to say that every university has also the right (apparently, at least) to be inconsistent with entry requirements across different qualifications.


How long ago did you send out your UCAS application? I believe you can substitute a choice within two weeks of sending, but beyond that it gets a little more complicated I think.

Sorry to hear about the rest of it though, if they're going to be difficult and stubborn then there's not much you can do :frown: the only other thing I could think of is contacting someone higher up the hierarchy about the inconsistency in entry requirements.
Reply 4
You're just whining. In my many years, you're the first person with this problem - which suggests it isn't the problem, and you are.

And yes, I realise you're not going to take that well.

You could substitute a choice but it would be classed as a late application. You should have done your research before the deadline and not after (omg I am so mean).
Reply 5
Original post by Juno
You're just whining. In my many years, you're the first person with this problem - which suggests it isn't the problem, and you are.

And yes, I realise you're not going to take that well.

You could substitute a choice but it would be classed as a late application. You should have done your research before the deadline and not after (omg I am so mean).


I mean, all we know is that he's the first person to have the problem who has brought it up on TSR. There aren't many Swiss applicants in the first place, and even fewer on TSR, so it may well be coincidence that this is the first instance of it here.

I did some research on entry requirements for several universities for Swiss applicants.
For comparison:
St Andrews requires a 6 in three subjects!
For maths related subjects, LSE requires a 6 in maths (though LSE always has some funky entry requirements, like not considering further maths a third A Level for some subjects).
Glasgow requires a 5.5 average and in required subjects.
Warwick has some Warwick-specific foundation course.
Durham/Bath had no information (would probably need to contact admissions department for it).
Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, UCL, Lancaster and Bristol all require between 5 and 5.5 at most in various subjects (Lancaster says overall average ranging from 4.5 to 5.7, but I presume 5.7 isn't required in most subjects).

So in retrospect, this actually seems more like a Scottish thing, especially with Glasgow being disproportionately high compared to some of the others with usually higher entry requirements. The entire thing is bizarre.
Reply 6
Also, OP, Juno has an important point I forgot - substituting a choice would mean the application (for that specific course) would be considered late. So definitely contact the admissions department at Durham to see if they would still consider it before doing so (this would also be a good opportunity to contact them about the Swiss qualifications, since they don't have much information on international qualifications on their website).
Reply 7
Original post by 430
How long ago did you send out your UCAS application? I believe you can substitute a choice within two weeks of sending, but beyond that it gets a little more complicated I think.

Thank you to let me know that. I may consider the affair.

Original post by 430
Sorry to hear about the rest of it though, if they're going to be difficult and stubborn then there's not much you can do :frown: the only other thing I could think of is contacting someone higher up the hierarchy about the inconsistency in entry requirements.

That would be an idea. I need to think if it is doable though.


Original post by Juno
You're just whining. In my many years, you're the first person with this problem - which suggests it isn't the problem, and you are.

And yes, I realise you're not going to take that well.

As I have already stated in my thread my diploma is not international at all. When you take the Swiss Matura you usually proceed to university in Switzerland. And, again, there are different versions of this diploma. There are Cantonal and federal ones, and they also differ from one linguistic area to another. They are not the same for every student as it happens for A-Level IB or similar.

Original post by Juno
You could substitute a choice but it would be classed as a late application. You should have done your research before the deadline and not after

I have done my research before and (again, as I already said) I had email correspondence with the UoE. Maybe you should take another look at my thread instead of posting nonsense things.

Original post by Juno
(omg I am so mean).

No, you are not. You are only childish my friend.
Reply 8
Original post by 534443
Thank you to let me know that. I may consider the affair.


That would be an idea. I need to think if it is doable though.



As I have already stated in my thread my diploma is not international at all. When you take the Swiss Matura you usually proceed to university in Switzerland. And, again, there are different versions of this diploma. There are Cantonal and federal ones, and they also differ from one linguistic area to another. They are not the same for every student as it happens for A-Level IB or similar.


I have done my research before and (again, as I already said) I had email correspondence with the UoE. Maybe you should take another look at my thread instead of posting nonsense things.


No, you are not. You are only childish my friend.

2/10

You clearly haven't done any research. If you had, you wouldn't be in this position - and you would also know I have a hell of a lot of experience so your insults are irrelevant.
Reply 9
Come on, dude. OP clearly ****ed up by not checking the entry requirements for Edinburgh (and/or not searching for other Compsci+Physics courses like Durham), but he's here asking for our support. Telling him what he could've done back then contributes literally nothing to this thread; what we should discuss is the options he has now (especially regarding what he could email Edinburgh with regards to his AP Calculus BC predicted grade).
Reply 10
Original post by 430
I mean, all we know is that he's the first person to have the problem who has brought it up on TSR. There aren't many Swiss applicants in the first place, and even fewer on TSR, so it may well be coincidence that this is the first instance of it here.

I did some research on entry requirements for several universities for Swiss applicants.
For comparison:
St Andrews requires a 6 in three subjects!
For maths related subjects, LSE requires a 6 in maths (though LSE always has some funky entry requirements, like not considering further maths a third A Level for some subjects).
Glasgow requires a 5.5 average and in required subjects.
Warwick has some Warwick-specific foundation course.
Durham/Bath had no information (would probably need to contact admissions department for it).
Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, UCL, Lancaster and Bristol all require between 5 and 5.5 at most in various subjects (Lancaster says overall average ranging from 4.5 to 5.7, but I presume 5.7 isn't required in most subjects).

So in retrospect, this actually seems more like a Scottish thing, especially with Glasgow being disproportionately high compared to some of the others with usually higher entry requirements. The entire thing is bizarre.

The fact that Lancaster asks for 5.7, and UCL for 5.1/5.2 in some cases, clearly shows how my diploma is not well known in the UK. Indeed, you cannot achieve these grades, as the evaluation scale is 0.5.
Given what I have seen on unis websites I honestly think that Oxbridge, Imperial, Bristol and KCL are the only universities that have undertaken some serious research on how the Swiss Matura works.

Original post by 430
Also, OP, Juno has an important point I forgot - substituting a choice would mean the application (for that specific course) would be considered late. So definitely contact the admissions department at Durham to see if they would still consider it before doing so (this would also be a good opportunity to contact them about the Swiss qualifications, since they don't have much information on international qualifications on their website).

Got it.

Original post by Juno
2/10
You clearly haven't done any research. If you had, you wouldn't be in this position -

Maybe you still didn't get it, I have sent my application after having contacted UoE and after they told me that AP Calculus BC would have been a good substitute for grade 6 in maths. Again, I was well aware of their entry requirements when I sent my application.


Original post by Juno

and you would also know I have a hell of a lot of experience so your insults are irrelevant.

First of all, I didn't insult you, I was honest to you and that is a different thing. Secondly, you may have "a hell of a lot of experience" but I can tell you that you also have a hell of a lot of arrogance.
If you do not have anything useful or constructive to say, then you are not forced by anyone to join a discussion.

Original post by 430
Come on, dude. OP clearly ****ed up by not checking the entry requirements for Edinburgh (and/or not searching for other Compsci+Physics courses like Durham),

I have checked the entry requirements.
I did not search for other Compsci+Physics courses since I already had 5 choices.

Original post by 430
but he's here asking for our support. Telling him what he could've done back then contributes literally nothing to this thread; what we should discuss is the options he has now (especially regarding what he could email Edinburgh with regards to his AP Calculus BC predicted grade).

Thanks to have pointed it out.
(edited 6 years ago)
Reply 11
Okay, I write this post since I would like to update the thread.

First part (article).
***
So, the other day I came across an article written by a Swiss national who is currently studying in the UK at KCL. (link: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/opinion_what-i-learned-when-applying-to-a-british-uni/43480892)

He goes through a lot of interesting points in the article but the thing that I am more concerned about is the part entitled "Lack of understanding".
I think that he brings a lot of interesting arguments here. For example, he starts by saying:
"Meanwhile, several British university admissions offices were making applying difficult by setting ridiculously high entry requirements. One may be predisposed to believe that the top universities in the country have justifiably high standards, but of the five universities I applied to in 2012, four of them displayed a misunderstanding of the Swiss marking criteria and therefore of the Swiss education system in general."

I agree with his words as I have found myself that sometimes the entry requirements for the Swiss matura are either slightly or moderately inconsistent with those for others well-known qualifications such as IB, A-Level or APs. It also appears that this discrepancy is always against the swiss students, or at least this is what I have found in my experience. Furthermore, if universities in the UK do not know what the marking criteria for the Swiss matura are, they will presumably also do not have a clue about the difficulty level of the latter.

The OP goes on and adds:
"For example, the matura entry requirements to study history at St Andrews, currently ranked 3rd in the UK by The Complete University Guide 2018, were set at “an overall average grade of 5.5 or above, with three specified subjects at 6.0 or above”.
Now, every Swiss child will tell you that there is no such thing as “6.0 or above”. Marks go from 1 to 6, with 4 being a pass."

I think that this passage is self-explanatory. After all, it seems like Edinburgh is not the only university which made a mess with the Swiss entry requirements.

This section ends with a statement that made me think a lot about the different approaches that the UK and Switzerland have to higher education:
"An average of 4 at matura level will get you into any university in Switzerland. In other words, receiving the diploma matters more than the results. It is not like in Britain where everything depends upon the A-level results and students are under immense pressure to get the top grades that elite universities require."

Indeed, both the ETH and the EPFL only ask for an average of 4 for the Swiss matura and there is no selection, no competition, nothing like that for university admission. Also, if I understood correctly, you also do not need any PS or reference for admission to uni in Switzerland, you just send the application, which is more like an acknowledgment letter, and you are automatically in. Maybe the above facts, plus the almost inexistent tuition fees in CH, are enough to make anyone understand why there are not a lot of Swiss national students in the UK, and consequently, no post like mine on this forum.

But, to be honest, the previous statement is quite understandable when we consider that:
"What British universities fail to grasp is that there are years of pre-selection involved before a student even gets to a Swiss high school. In England, the number of 16-18 year-olds that continue in full-time education stands at 71.5% (2016). In Switzerland, only 20% take a high school diploma to get into university, while the rest pursue vocational training." as OP later says in the article.

It is also worth noticing the following statements:
"To make a direct analogy between the British and Swiss marking criteria is to assume that high results in one system are equivalent to high results in another. This was Durham University’s mistake. To study History there, I would have needed an “overall average score of 6, with 6 in specified subject(s)”. This was a preposterously high demand to make. If a student does achieve an average of 6 in Switzerland, they become newsworthy. No student in England ever made the headlines for getting straight A*s unless of course they passed far more than the usual 3 or 4."

So, I presume that Durham would also have been a tough one for me, fortunately, it was not included in my university choices.

Then OP also came to this (political/hot) point:
"But it is important that British universities get this right, and not only in the case of the Swiss matura. If a university’s entry requirements are wide off the mark, then the university might lose a fruitful pool of able and willing foreign students something it may not be able to afford in the present political climate surrounding Brexit.

Is he right, maybe? Actually, he took a good point.

And, last but not least:
"Moreover, prospective students might feel slighted."

Nailed it. 10 out of 10.

Well, should I add something more? Maybe he was not completely right about all points that he made but I think that he got the "big picture" very well. At least I do not feel alone in this situation anymore.
***

Second part (UoE related).
***
Back to the thread itself, I have tried to contact UoE again and I am still waiting for a reply at the moment. Honestly, I have to say that I do not hold any hope anymore and I do not think that we will come to a good ending in this matter.

Anyway, I have checked UoE website again and I have now noticed that they ask for a minimum of 655 at HL in the IB (where 7 is the maximum mark). I have also remembered that a little while ago they told me that for the Swiss matura (where 6 is the maximum mark, only achievable by getting 100% of the points from examinations) grade 6 in Maths and grade 5 in Physics are the minimum entry requirements, which are the same as the ones for the IB, the only thing different is the formulation of the concept.
So, haven't they found out that the marking scheme is different in the Swiss matura until now?
Have they ever received a Swiss applicant with grade 7 in any subject? I don't think so.
Haven't they ever noticed that in the Swiss matura there are also .5 points?
I came to the conclusion that being a world-leading university does not always result in being a well-informed university, at least not in the UK.
***

I will update this thread again for future reference when I will get an update from UoE. Thus, any Swiss national student with a willingness to come to study in the UK will have a clearer view of the present situation. Hopefully, it will eventually help somebody.
Reply 12
I have eventually been rejected just a few days ago.
I would just like to tell any Swiss national reading this in the future that you had better not to apply to Edinburgh if you do not already hold the "mostly impossible to obtain" grades that they require for the Swiss Matura. However, since Cambridge, Oxford and similar universities ask for far "worse" grades you will probably have a greater chance to get admitted there with those grades anyway (it seems legit, right?).
So, forget about Edinburgh, it will make your life easier (and avoid you a great amount of wasted time).
Reply 13
Hi 534443, I just read the entire thread, and I'm flabbergasted. Even though I'm only an outsider and my knowledge about the Swiss education system is very minimal, it's obvious to me that your situation is extremely unfair. It's sad to see that despite your hard work and perseverance, you still got rejected. Unfortunately there isn't much I can do for you at this point, but I just wanted to let you know that I feel for you. I sincerely hope that you will end up at a university that is right for you. One that does understand the Swiss grading system. Quite frankly, if I was in your position, I wouldn't want to go to Edinburgh anyways. Good luck to you!!
(edited 6 years ago)
Reply 14
Original post by samdam
...

Thank you very much for your message samdam.
I really appreciate your words and I am happy to know that there is at least someone that sympathizes with my situation.

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