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    Genuine question here regarding this - I know that this is becoming more and more popular in medical schools up and down the country (where you perform cardio, abdo, resp exams on your peers after being taught by a tutor).

    Does anyone else feel embarrassed about having to take their top off and getting examined (especially by members of the other sex) ? Especially when you're the model and everyone else is watching.

    I'm 3rd year at one of the med schools that uses this learning method (we did it in Years 1 and 2); its pretty much a part of the course and other than for religious reasons (ladies); everyone is expected to participate. Everyone in our year did.

    From talking to others; I've heard of several problems that have arisen.
    1) Guys who have gynecomastia embarrassed to get examined.
    2) Girls with body dysmorphia not feeling very comfortable.
    2) Students being placed in the same group as someone that they are attracted to (which is hard to overlook when auscultating as the other persons heartbeat naturally speeds up).
    3) Girls feeling uncomfortable being in the same group as immature guys.

    I know you could say it teaches us what its like to be a patient but there are really a lot of issues it causes which I feel people have been talking about but not raising ?
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    Not to say I completely agree with it but do you not think this will teach future doctors how some of their patients may feel uncomfortable about being examined thus teaching them empathy?
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    (Original post by abracajuna)
    Genuine question here regarding this - I know that this is becoming more and more popular in medical schools up and down the country (where you perform cardio, abdo, resp exams on your peers after being taught by a tutor).

    Does anyone else feel embarrassed about having to take their top off and getting examined (especially by members of the other sex) ? Especially when you're the model and everyone else is watching.

    I'm 3rd year at one of the med schools that uses this learning method (we did it in Years 1 and 2); its pretty much a part of the course and other than for religious reasons (ladies); everyone is expected to participate. Everyone in our year did.

    From talking to others; I've heard of several problems that have arisen.
    1) Guys who have gynecomastia embarrassed to get examined.
    2) Girls with body dysmorphia not feeling very comfortable.
    2) Students being placed in the same group as someone that they are attracted to (which is hard to overlook when auscultating as the other persons heartbeat naturally speeds up).
    3) Girls feeling uncomfortable being in the same group as immature guys.

    I know you could say it teaches us what its like to be a patient but there are really a lot of issues it causes which I feel people have been talking about but not raising ?
    We also did this in first year too - certainly there was no obligation to take part, but most people did. I don't remember anyone feeling uncomfortable about it (at least vocally) and there weren't any concerns raised. Personally I found it quite fun and it was what I imagined med school teaching would be like, just like the images on the website or in the prospectus. So for me personally, it was one of those moments where I thought "wow, I've made it to med school".

    Your points are slightly misnumbered, but I would suggest the second point 2 is rather silly and sounds a bit Sweet Valley Medical School more than irl med school

    Out of curiosity, what would you propose as an alternative method of learning?
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    (Original post by Democracy)
    We also did this in first year too - certainly there was no obligation to take part, but most people did. I don't remember anyone feeling uncomfortable about it (at least vocally) and there weren't any concerns raised. Personally I found it quite fun and it was what I imagined med school teaching would be like, just like the images on the website or in the prospectus. So for me personally, it was one of those moments where I thought "wow, I've made it to med school".

    Your points are slightly misnumbered, but I would suggest point 3 is rather silly and sounds a bit Sweet Valley Medical School more than irl med school

    Out of curiosity, what would you propose as an alternative method of learning?
    You'd be surprised about point 3 and the behaviour of some first year medical students ! ...

    As for alternative method; IMHO, I think the best thing would be to be taught either on simulated models or have subjects brought in (which is what they used to do until there were funding cuts).
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    (Original post by usernamenottaken)
    Not to say I completely agree with it but do you not think this will teach future doctors how some of their patients may feel uncomfortable about being examined thus teaching them empathy?
    I agree it can; but I think that since its generally seen as an obligation to engage then it can leave some students feeling alienated or distressed on the inside from what I've heard.
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    (Original post by abracajuna)
    You'd be surprised about point 3 and the behaviour of some first year medical students ! ...
    To clarify, I meant this point is a bit silly:

    "Students being placed in the same group as someone that they are attracted to (which is hard to overlook when auscultating as the other persons heartbeat naturally speeds up)"

    ...you had two (2)s!

    As for alternative method; IMHO, I think the best thing would be to be taught either on simulated models or have subjects brought in (which is what they used to do until there were funding cuts).
    I don't think simulated models (even those with heart and breath sounds) can compare to actual human beings with their normal and abnormal variations, as well as their capacity to give you feedback. If you're practising on a number of your peers you'll also get more of a variety of what examination feels like compared to a single subject.
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    (Original post by Democracy)
    To clarify, I meant this point is a bit silly:

    "Students being placed in the same group as someone that they are attracted to (which is hard to overlook when auscultating as the other persons heartbeat naturally speeds up)"

    ...you had two (2)s!



    I don't think simulated models (even those with heart and breath sounds) can compare to actual human beings with their normal and abnormal variations, as well as their capacity to give you feedback. If you're practising on a number of your peers you'll also get more of a variety of what examination feels like compared to a single subject.
    Oh, ok ! ... Well I think it can be something to consider; however when they did a study a while ago (would link source if I could find it again); one of the thoughts students had was this - developing attraction to peers and how it makes the process awkward.

    I agree with the second point, but you're unlikely to find pathology in such peer classes; and I agree it has its positives but don't you think there are negative elements too ?
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    (Original post by abracajuna)
    I agree with the second point, but you're unlikely to find pathology in such peer classes; and I agree it has its positives but don't you think there are negative elements too ?
    Oh I don't mean pathology - that's what clinical years are for. I mean getting a feel for normal anatomy and physiology (and the normal variations thereof).

    I can see that there could be negative elements yes, but I think that's very often situation and person dependent.
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    (Original post by abracajuna)
    Genuine question here regarding this - I know that this is becoming more and more popular in medical schools...
    Pretty sure its been a thing for as long as formal medical training has existed.

    1) Guys who have gynecomastia embarrassed to get examined.
    Your patients may be embarrassed to be examined. They have to deal with it.

    Regardless, its not like anyone is forced.

    2) Girls with body dysmorphia not feeling very comfortable.
    Guys can have body dysmorphia too.

    This is the same point as point 1)

    2) Students being placed in the same group as someone that they are attracted to (which is hard to overlook when auscultating as the other persons heartbeat naturally speeds up).
    Maybe you'll have to examine an attractive patient one day? Again, deal with it.

    3) Girls feeling uncomfortable being in the same group as immature guys.
    Said guys need to grow up fast.

    Removing something as simple as voluntary examination practice on the grounds that some people might be too sensitive is clearly ridiculous. You will need to learn to be mature and professional at medical school and peer examination is a nice, very tame, start.
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    Interesting, at my med school they removed peer-to-peer examination (I think last year) because they did lots of surveys and found that lots of people did feel pressured/ forced into it, and felt embarrassed being topless in front of all their peers, which I would argue is a very different dynamic to doctor-patient?
    I do have memories of a boy essentially being forced to get topless in a teaching session because we were mainly girls, and looking like he wanted to die the entire time.
    Anyways now they hold sessions with voluntary patients instead, that apparently work much better.
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    I do get the feeling that boys are much more pressured to be the model by the tutors in order to 'save the girls from losing their dignity', which I think is completely silly. In fact, I often feel sorry for the boys cause the girls are having peer to peer examination practice on both genders and most of the boys are limited to just practice on one until they are faced with real patients.

    Personally, I have no problem with taking my top off for either gender during peer to peer examination because it's a learning experience, and I'd rather get it wrong practicing with a peer than with a real patient. This gives a bit more room to become more comfortable before moving on to non-medical volunteers and patients, where you can hone the communication skills more rather than panicking about the steps and techniques of the examination.
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    Hmm, interesting perspective. Yes I do feel sorry for the boys too.
    Do you not have patient contact from first year though? I was in GP once a week, examining patients, long before we formally got taught clinical exams. I don't think you can massively 'get it wrong' examining someone, sure it might not be OSCE style but as long as you're not trying to put a stethoscope up their bum or something, it's not hard to follow a doctors lead on what to do.
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    (Original post by Cheesychips44)
    Hmm, interesting perspective. Yes I do feel sorry for the boys too.
    Do you not have patient contact from first year though? I was in GP once a week, examining patients, long before we formally got taught clinical exams. I don't think you can massively 'get it wrong' examining someone, sure it might not be OSCE style but as long as you're not trying to put a stethoscope up their bum or something, it's not hard to follow a doctors lead on what to do.
    Though we begin our patient contact in year one, we only have a couple of visits split between GP and hospitals. The expectation is that during these visits we practice our history taking and clinical examinations, so we have to be at least slightly competent in doing them prior to the visit. I don't mean get it wrong massively, but we do get drilled into us that we are there representing the university and basically future doctors, so we should try to practice as much as we can before them; which we can only do with peer to peer practice.
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    At my medical school we mainly practice examinations on actors/real patients which have been brought in for that exact purpose. I believe they do this to simulate a more clinical environment as often when your doing this on peers it can get a little to relaxed and silly (especially in first year when all some people want to do is chat about the night before).
    I found this method to work really well because it encouraged us to adopt a formal technique from the start (as these patients are "professional patients" who have been examined many times before or actors who have repeatedly done this) because they know how it should be done and often have real pathology to find.

    We have done some examination on SIM dolls, this is very sophisticated because the doll is controlled behind a screen by somebody who can change its Obs and talk. To me though it was just so fake, it gets you into the swing of how to manage acute situations without causing harm to anybody. But for routine examination in a chronic setting it was hopeless because it was hard to approach the patient in a normal manner with the doll and the examination techinique was not the same as the dolls anatomy was very different to a patients.

    We have done some examination on each-other formally as part of the medical curriculum. We did spinal examination on eachother but people were asked to volunteer if they felt comfortable. We also have done many clinical skills on each-other including venepuncture which was compulsory.

    I personally dont like peer examination, nobody took it seriously!
 
 
 
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