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    (Original post by Jang Gwangnam)
    That's where sincerity come into place
    "I rather die believing in the off chance there is God as well as heaven and hell"

    Then if one wanted as a far end, and not high on the priority list, would want to go to heaven, then they wouldn't saying something like this. They'd believe for the right reasons, and for example, the way of God is the true way for them. heavn just shouldn't come into it if you're a true christain
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    (Original post by Jang Gwangnam)
    It's when what you say is what you'll do. You won't pull any strings and just do what you said.
    Sorry. So now we've clarified that Satan has no say in the struggles of mortals, does Satan deserve a place in society? Because it sounds like all Satan wants is for people to have fun!
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    (Original post by will'o'wisp2)
    "I rather die believing in the off chance there is God as well as heaven and hell"

    Then if one wanted as a far end, and not high on the priority list, would want to go to heaven, then they wouldn't saying something like this. They'd believe for the right reasons, and for example, the way of God is the true way for them. heavn just shouldn't come into it if you're a true christain
    The whole problem with heaven and hell is that every action in your life is governed by whether you will go to heaven or hell. You don't do the right things for right's sake, you do it because you're scared.
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    (Original post by will'o'wisp2)
    "I rather die believing in the off chance there is God as well as heaven and hell"

    Then if one wanted as a far end, and not high on the priority list, would want to go to heaven, then they wouldn't saying something like this. They'd believe for the right reasons, and for example, the way of God is the true way for them. heavn just shouldn't come into it if you're a true christain
    My friend we aren't all whole hearted believers. With all these atheists in this world its hard to expel even a small thought of doubt from your mind.
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    (Original post by Unkilled)
    Exactly! God looks like a dictator in Satan's situation. If he's a dictator, he definitely has no place in society.
    Yep, if a world leader acted like god does in the bible there would be outcry.
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    (Original post by Jang Gwangnam)
    Temptation is the best word to describe it.

    He essentially is the evil angel (Satan isn't an angle, he's a Jin) portrayed in cartoons on your left shoulder. He'll whisper in to your 'ears' the bad things you should do.
    I see. So, in other words, humans are actually free from sin and its just another little guy pulling the strings. Again, the justification of irresponsibility.

    And I know what you're going to say. Satan only urges. We all have urges. They're not necessarily Satan. Human nature might just be flawed.
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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    Yep, if a world leader acted like god does in the bible there would be outcry.
    I can see you and I are going to get on.
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    (Original post by Unkilled)
    Sorry. So now we've clarified that Satan has no say in the struggles of mortals, does Satan deserve a place in society? Because it sounds like all Satan wants is for people to have fun!
    Bro...

    If your definition of fun is back stabbing old friends for more power. Backbiting about people who are obese. Rapism becoming more of a thing.

    Then bloody hell i need some life support, cuz your crazy...
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    (Original post by PilgrimOfTruth)
    Did you ever stop to wonder why you are even interested in the name or term God?

    When you were born you have absolutely no knowledge of a God

    So when and where did this interest in this very specific "thing" occur?

    Let me answer

    Other humans, told you about this entity called God
    Other humans gave you stories about this entity
    Other humans have tried to limit and frame your life experience by confining it to this very specific concept of "God" and all that goes with it

    Why would they do that?

    Because by limiting people's thoughts, asking them to replace thinking and rationality with blind faith and compliance, they are able to control.

    Don't be a puppet.

    Stop worrying about whether this thing they call "God" exists or not. It's a man-made concept.

    Look at the world around you. Look at Nature for Nature is where you came from and what you are a part of. Understand how Nature operates and you will come to understand who and what you are, which is paramount.

    TEMET NOSCE

    Never let others limit you with specific concepts.

    If you are referring to the God in the Bible then know that the Bible is NOT meant to be read or taken literally. It is a heavily edited and censored creation of lots of separate documents and works and it contains many secrets hidden cryptically, allegorically and in code.
    The text in the Bible is merely padding to contain all those secrets.

    Never take a literal interpretation of the Bible. It makes no sense anyway if you do that, it is riddled with 100s if not 1000s of outright contradictions and the "God" described there is a vengeful entity, who engages in genocide, ethnic cleansing, killing and maiming of children and other atrocious behaviours.

    The questions you need to ask:

    Who am I?
    What am I?
    How do I avoid death?
    What does my body lack that causes me to age and get ill?
    What does Nature offer to help me?

    and so on

    Religion and other brainwashing merchants seek to distract you from this crucial search. It seeks to limit your thinking by directing it down singular paths, just like your question. Too many people are obsessed with "does God exist". It's a diversion, a distraction nothing more.
    The truth is out there, you only have to Seek to Find.

    But first we have to put aside all the conditioning and brainwashing we received from other humans throughout our childhood and into adulthood and be prepared to think wider and without those chains.

    TEMET NOSCE

    Free Your Mind
    You're just dismissing the debate on the grounds that God is a product of society. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have the dialogue.
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    (Original post by Unkilled)
    I see. So, in other words, humans are actually free from sin and its just another little guy pulling the strings. Again, the justification of irresponsibility.

    And I know what you're going to say. Satan only urges. We all have urges. They're not necessarily Satan. Human nature might just be flawed.
    I agree with that, though Satan just enhances these urges so that we are blinded by the benefits and not the drawbacks.
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    (Original post by Jang Gwangnam)
    Bro...

    If your definition of fun is back stabbing old friends for more power. Backbiting about people who are obese. Rapism becoming more of a thing.

    Then bloody hell i need some life support, cuz your crazy...
    Dude, I'm not advocating for any of those things. The state already has legislative sanction on them. What about the sins? Greed? Gluttony? Lust? Wrath? Envy? Sloth? Pride? I can see extreme manifest of them, sure, but God wants wants to restrict everyone's lives to be nothing. Thus, he shouldn't be in control of government.

    I can totally see Satan whispering in my ear "don't do your homework" or "hack a school computer". But I can also see preachy eve-angelical freaks saying not to have any fun at all.
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    (Original post by Jang Gwangnam)
    I agree with that, though Satan just enhances these urges so that we are blinded by the benefits and not the drawbacks.
    I'm afraid I fundamentally disagree that an imp on my shoulder can be responsible for my sins. I, as a person, am responsible for my sins.
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    (Original post by Unkilled)
    Yep. Why don't we move on to that? So, here's my question: is God right?

    Nope. If we take his actions on the grounds of ethics, which I've never read a single book, by the way, I don't think he has any place to influence society. Remember, he destroyed that whole city because people were having fun. Also, he tries to justify homophobia, violence, sexism. All of which are undeniably bad things.

    Three problems with this thread here:

    1. You say "Does God exist?" but you appear to only be referring to the Christian God (and thus analyzing God only from a New/Old Testament perspective).

    This makes for a confusing discussion as some people are giving their 2c on the question as it is ("Does God exist?") whereas others are debating from a "Does the Christian God exist?" perspective.

    This is an important thing to clarify, because people's interpretation of God/s can vary wildly from religion to religion or as a general philosophical construct etc.


    2. Even if the title of the thread was changed to "Does the Christian God exist?", that is still problematic, because Christianity (like most religions) is no singular religion. More like, it is a collective of different sub-religions (Catholicism, Church of England, Protestantism etc) who all arguably have quite differing perspectives on what kind of God they're actually following (and how best to follow him).

    Ways to follow Christianity are extremely diverse (and range from the ultra liberal to the ultra conservative). For some, the Old Testament simply exists as a Jewish context backdrop to the religion that Jesus Christ worked to change (and that it's the New Testament which is the book that Christians should focus on). But for others, the Old Testament is considered very much Christianity (not Judaism) and something to be taken just as seriously as the New Testament (with things like the 10 commandments and the story of Creation being just as important to believe in and follow as lessons like Jesus's story of The Good Samaritan).
    Etc.

    3. So this results in the third issue: What exactly do Christians believe in?

    Because most people who follow Christianity, do not follow it 100%/believe in all of it literally. Explanations for the less 21st century appealing aspects of the bible are extremely diverse.


    Personally I think that if you take the Christian God as depicted in Old Testament literally, then yes, you do end up with a rather genocidal and unsavory character. But as someone who is not Christian, trying to figure my moral compass around what's written in the bible, is not such a big deal for me.

    But since religion affects me regardless, I still think we should try to understand other people's perspectives on the matter, which should be less about whether people believe in God or not (and more about what they believe about following God).

    From my personal experience: Most Christians in England, do not pay roo much heed to what's written in the Old Testament. Most of the focus is on the New Testament, which is arguably what Christianity (A.K.A the teachings of Jesus Christ) is really about. And I think we can all agree that most of what Jesus Christ taught, its pretty agreeable stuff (even from a 21st century perspective). Even I (who am not Christian), believe that Jesus was absolutely spot on about some things.

    In America though, I've noticed that there are much greater numbers of people who follow more Old Testament-style ways of following Christianity. But I think the times are changing (with a general trend towards much more liberal style spirituality).

    Personally I think that religion has a place in society (and that when it leans towards the much more liberal end of perspectives, it generally causes no real issues in society). So what we need to do is to try and encourage and be more accommodating towards liberal religious folks (as opposed to trying to judge and attack anyone who simply happens to believe in a God).

    The real question is not whether people believe in a God or not, but what their interpretation of the God they believe in is (which in practice, is almost never actually the literal God portrayed in all of the religious texts).
    Ironically, you cannot actually sum up/understand well anyone's belief's simply by knowing the name of their religion. This is a major mistake that many people make (and often leads to the worst sort of ignorance, political decisions, condescending opinions and social divisions).
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    (Original post by Jang Gwangnam)
    Temptation is the best word to describe it.

    He essentially is the evil angel (Satan isn't an angle, he's a Jin) portrayed in cartoons on your left shoulder. He'll whisper in to your 'ears' the bad things you should do.
    Ah the famous Iblees. The wrongdoer and the misguider.

    Yes he does make an individual fall into sinning on a daily basis however one can control their nafs by constant supplication.

    Remember he can only tempt an individual. The initial action is then carried out by the individual itself.
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    Does it really matter, if people believe in a God empirical evidence will not deter them, if people choose not to believe in a God no amount of philosophical argument will persuade them.

    In my opinion it is clear, that if there was a good it would be intransigent, inhumane and transcendent, the entity would not be concerned about humanity.

    The underlying issue, is that humans can never attain certainty, so in essence no one can ever make a statement about God that is true. The only statement you could make is, God may or may not exist.
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    (Original post by Unkilled)
    Well, I would say that there isn't a god. Not that I think that it isn't possible for some higher entity to exist: that could be credible, but I don't think there is enough evidence to support that belief. However, I do think that the God described in religious texts does not exist.

    This is because it is not logically possible for a god to possess any of the following factors:
    - Omnipotence
    - Omniscience
    - Omnipresence
    - Omnibenevolence
    - Supernatural

    Omnipotence is not possible because you can't make a square circle. Omniscience because then the God would've known his own existence before he existed. Which is impossible. Omnibenevolence speaks for itself, and I refuse to believe that God is supernatural giving that his existence MUST have a scientific explanation. As for Omnipresence, the universe constantly expands. So there.
    Could he build a stone so heavy he could not lift himself?
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    (Original post by Unkilled)
    Because nothing can defy logic. You can't make a square circle. Just not possible, I'm afraid. And if you wanted to have all the powers, then why invent circles and squares in the first place. Also, nothing is beyond our comprehension. If you solve each unknown in every equation, anything can be understood.

    Also, why create logic if it disproves God's own existence?
    Perfect explanation.
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    (Original post by TrotskyiteRebel)
    Could he build a stone so heavy he could not lift himself?
    This does not make sense, unless you meant to add it between lift and himself.
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    (Original post by Feastful)
    Three problems with this thread here:

    1. You say "Does God exist?" but you appear to only be referring to the Christian God (and thus analyzing God only from a New/Old Testament perspective).

    This makes for a confusing discussion as some people are giving their 2c on the question as it is ("Does God exist?" whereas others are debating from a "Does the Christian God exist?" perspective.

    This is an important thing to clarify, because people's interpretation of God/s can vary wildly from religion to religion or as a general philosophical construct etc.


    2. Even if the title of the thread was changed to "Does the Christian God exist?", that is still problematic, because Christianity (like most religions) is no singular religion. More like, it is a collective of different sub-religions (Catholicism, Church of England, Protestantism etc) who all arguably have quite differing perspectives on what kind of God they're actually following (and how best to follow him).

    Ways to follow Christianity are extremely diverse (and range from the ultra liberal to the ultra conservative). For some, the Old Testament simply exists as a Jewish context backdrop to the religion that Jesus Christ worked to change (and that it's the New Testament which is the book that Christians should focus on). But for others, the Old Testament is considered very much Christianity (not Judaism) and something to be taken just as seriously as the New Testament (with things like the 10 commandments and the story of Creation being just as important to believe in and follow as lessons like Jesus's story of The Good Samaritan).
    Etc.

    3. So this results in the third issue: What exactly do Christians believe in?

    Because most people who follow Christianity, do not follow it 100%/believe in all of it literally. Explanations for the less 21st century appealing aspects of the bible are extremely diverse.


    Personally I think that if you take the Christian God as depicted in Old Testament literally, then yes, you do end up with a rather genocidal and unsavory character. But as someone who is not Christian, trying to figure my moral compass around what's written in the bible, is not such a big deal for me.

    But since religion affects me regardless, I still think we should try to understand other people's perspectives on the matter, which should be less about whether people believe in God or not (and more about what they believe about following God).

    From my personal experience: Most Christians in England, do not pay roo much heed to what's written in the Old Testament. Most of the focus is on the New Testament, which is arguably what Christianity (A.K.A the teachings of Jesus Christ) is really about. And I think we can all agree that most of what Jesus Christ taught, its pretty agreeable stuff (even from a 21st century perspective). Even I (who am not Christian), believe that Jesus was absolutely spot on about some things.

    In America though, I've noticed that there are much greater numbers of people who follow more Old Testament-style ways of following Christianity. But I think the times are changing (with a general trend towards much more liberal style spirituality).

    Personally I think that religion has a place in society (and that when it leans towards the much more liberal end of perspectives, it generally causes no real issues in society). So what we need to do is to try and encourage and be more accommodating towards liberal religious folks (as opposed to trying to judge and attack anyone who simply happens to believe in a God).

    The real question is not whether people believe in a God or not, but what their interpretation of the God they believe in is (which in practice, is almost never actually the literal God portrayed in all of the religious texts).
    Ironically, you cannot actually sum up/understand well anyone's belief's simply by knowing the name of their religion. This is a major mistake that many people make (and often leads to the worst sort of ignorance, political decisions, condescending opinions and social divisions).
    So, you're just saying that people can move the goalposts. The reason I'm arguing against the christian God is that it has the most objectively defined parameters that I can think of.
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    (Original post by TrotskyiteRebel)
    Could he build a stone so heavy he could not lift himself?
    nope.
 
 
 

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