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    (Original post by constantine2016)
    God creates but is not created itself. God does not begin because God has always existed. To suggest that God has a beginning would suggest that he is human. God is the Prime Mover whose desire and will moves other things to come into existence.

    Also, there is no way to prove that God doesn't exist. Agnosticism seems the most logical viewpoint to have.

    It depends on what part of the bible you read as is the case with any holy book. The Old Testament certainly has more stories about God's Vengeance than the New Testament.
    Being created isn’t a ‘human’ thing. I created a sanwich for lunch today. My point is, for anything to exist it must have come into existence. But if god could sort out brexit that’d be great.

    There is no way to prove that something that doesn’t exist, doesn’t exist. You could tell me there’s an invisible fire breathing dragon standing in-front of me and there’s nothing I could do to prove that you are wrong, you can’t get tangible evidence that something is the figment of the imagination.
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    (Original post by alrarity09)
    at least you have a little chance
    Negligible as to mean nothing.
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    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    So religion has given nothing that a person cannot get somewhere else.
    But not everyone benefits from those other methods and in fact, theism (from my experience) has benefited countless of people in terms of improving and maintaining a healthy mind or mental health.
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    (Original post by Mil99)
    But not everyone benefits from those other methods and in fact, theism (from my experience) has benefited countless of people in terms of improving and maintaining a healthy mind or mental health.
    Religion has destroyed millions of lives and enslaved millions more (& I'm underestimating the numbers). The circumcision forced on boys (& some girls) too young to object to it, the force marriages of child brides, the numerous Inquisitions and Crusades /Jihads against non-believers, the mass rape and genocide of people in numerous countries to force them into one religion or other. Not to mention the numerous wars religions have waged against their own side in favour of one prophet/leader or other.

    In fact, most people benefit from mental health and other support provided by secular organisations and within their own family/social community. Religion is not necessary to help others. Most of the time, religion only help their own or when they think they can use their 'help' to convert someone.
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    (Original post by alrarity09)
    still its more than nothing but okay
    It's negligible so it's of no use pretending to believe in a god that it is, in real terms, just as likely to be non-existent as all the others. And that's not even taking into account the fact that it's impossible to make yourself believe something.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Although I am certain that gods of religions don't exist (because their texts are full of errors, contradictions and theological flaws), the arguments you've given above aren't very good ones in an attempt to disprove a general deity.

    1) The characteristic of omnipotence has not been defined as "being able to do anything" by theists for centuries now. They knew, all those years ago, that such a concept would include the flaws you've pointed out. Theists have therefore redefined omnipotence to mean "the power to do anything that is logically possible". In this way, God would still be omnipotent, he cannot make a square circle, not because he isn't omnipotent, but because a square circle is logically impossible. Not even God can make a married bachelor or a child who is its own parent, because these things are internally contradictory. Nonsense is still nonsense, even when applied to God.

    2) Not quite sure what you're trying to say by the omniscience point considering that most theists believe God has always existed and never came into existence.

    3) How does the expansion of the universe contradict an omnipresent god?
    Planta, Ive said this to you before, Allah exists because he created you.You did refute me upon this but I will happily say it again again. Just because Allah chose to hide himself does not mean he does not exist. He is aware of what we do every second.

    Allah has made the human brain in such a manner that when it comes to questioning his existence one would not come to a conclusion. This could be an ongoing debate for years or months to come.

    You will not get a definite answer. Not because there isnt any, but because one should not go too deep into such thinking's.

    There are no logical flaws in the Quraan, otherwise wouldnt have Islamic scholars picked upon this time ago?
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    Guy u can’t sit here and tell me that all this came from nothing or chance. Look at eachother. Everyone’s body is designed perfectly to do its function. It has to have been made by a designer 100%
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    (Original post by MiszshorTea786)
    Planta, Ive said this to you before, Allah exists because he created you.
    No, my parents created me and Allah doesn’t exist. That logic you used is horrendous. It’s equivalent to me saying “you exist because the all-mighty invisible rabbit created you”.

    You did refute me upon this but I will happily say it again again. Just because Allah chose to hide himself does not mean he does not exist. He is aware of what we do every second.
    But there is no evidence he exists and plenty of scriptural evidence he doesn’t.

    Allah has made the human brain in such a manner that when it comes to questioning his existence one would not come to a conclusion. This could be an ongoing debate for years or months to come.

    You will not get a definite answer. Not because there isnt any, but because one should not go too deep into such thinking's.

    There are no logical flaws in the Quraan, otherwise wouldnt have Islamic scholars picked upon this time ago?
    Bit of a silly question. Islamic scholars are Muslims so of course they’re not going to see errors because of their indoctrination, confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. But plenty of other people have identified the plethora of errors and contradictions in the Quran.
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    (Original post by Unkilled)
    Your arguments about God. I'm very interested to hear all your thoughts.
    Its unlikely he exists. But whether he exists or not is irrelevant because people will always seek meaning through the worship of some form of deity one way or another.
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    (Original post by myuniapplicn109)
    Guy u can’t sit here and tell me that all this came from nothing or chance. Look at eachother. Everyone’s body is designed perfectly to do its function. It has to have been made by a designer 100%
    Evolution does it just as well without demanding we fall on our knees in worship.

    We are the product of continuous evolution from the simplest forms of life to the complex beings that we are today. & we continue to evolve.

    There is no designer. & deffo not one who behaves much like a petulant immature human.
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    I would say with complete certainty that god doesn't exist, but I have no issue with people who choose to believe in god. I think that people who value truth do not believe in god, but people who value happiness do believe. Not that atheists can't be happy, but belief in anything supernatural (karma, heaven, rebirth, luck, astrology whatever) can help with well being, so each to their own.
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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    Being created isn’t a ‘human’ thing. I created a sanwich for lunch today. My point is, for anything to exist it must have come into existence. But if god could sort out brexit that’d be great.

    There is no way to prove that something that doesn’t exist, doesn’t exist. You could tell me there’s an invisible fire breathing dragon standing in-front of me and there’s nothing I could do to prove that you are wrong, you can’t get tangible evidence that something is the figment of the imagination.
    I never said to 'create' is a human characteristic. I said to have a beginning is a human and animal feature as humans and animals cannot exist forever. However, many philosophers and poets, such as William Blake, believed that the human ability to create things was an example of humans being created in the image of God.

    Something else had to always have eternally existed for other things to come into existence subsequently. Otherwise, you end up with a illogical argument that suggests a infinite chain of something always creating something and so on etc. God is what Aristotle calls the Prime Mover. Unmovable itself but able to move other things into existence.

    That is a false analogy though, much like the watchmaker argument. A fire-breathing dragon is very different to God, a being whose concept has existed for centuries. Dragons were never believed to have been as real as God. Information about dragons were passed down through oral traditions such as folktales which everyone knew to be mere stories. Moreover, dragons have never inspired philosophical writings to the same level that the concept of God has. Therefore, this analogy doesn't work as the two things are not remotely similar.

    God being a figment of the imagination is your opinion. It is not objective truth in the same way that theists believing in a God is true.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    No, my parents created me and Allah doesn’t exist. That logic you used is horrendous. It’s equivalent to me saying “you exist because the all-mighty invisible rabbit created you”.



    But there is no evidence he exists and plenty of scriptural evidence he doesn’t.



    Bit of a silly question. Islamic scholars are Muslims so of course they’re not going to see errors because of their indoctrination, confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. But plenty of other people have identified the plethora of errors and contradictions in the Quran.
    Yes and who created their sperm and egg?

    Like I keep saying, just because there is no evidence does not mean he doesnt exist. What do you classify his signs of this world as then?

    The highlighted in bold, does not really explain much sir. To be honest, just because they are of the Muslim faith does not mean that they would not take the fault out of Islam.

    They would do because they do not desire for their followers to be misguided. And they are not indoctrinated in their faith. Because they take all perspectives and are open-minded, regardless of the stigma that goes around of them.

    By the ways, if Allah did not exist I highly doubt he would give himself 99+ names. As well as Our Beloved Prophet Muhammad(SAW) to call upon?
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    (Original post by myuniapplicn109)
    Guy u can’t sit here and tell me that all this came from nothing or chance. Look at eachother. Everyone’s body is designed perfectly to do its function. It has to have been made by a designer 100%
    If that were true there would be no disability, no birth defects, and no need for hospitals or doctors because we’d have perfectly designed bodies that don’t fail and don’t get injured so easily.

    It’s not from ‘nothing’ it’s from evolution, which is backed up by scientific evidence. Unlike he-who-must-be-worshipped-or-you’re-going-to-hell
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    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Many humans have found the ability and strength to be brave and compassionate without need of religion.

    So religion has given nothing that a person cannot get somewhere else.
    You should read what I was replying to before jumping into a discussion. I was replying to someone saying a quote that said God is an example of human weakness.

    I was merely pointing out the generalisation in that statement when you consider the fact that many people have been inspired by their faith to be brave and compassionate.

    I don't see what right you have to look down on people who seek comfort and strength from spirituality.
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    (Original post by MiszshorTea786)
    Yes and who created their sperm and egg?
    My parents! Seriously Miszy, you need to brush up on basic biology if you didn’t know that a male body creates sperm and the female body makes eggs.

    Like I keep saying, just because there is no evidence does not mean he doesnt exist. What do you classify his signs of this world as then?
    If you are making claims he exists then the burden is on you to show it. In absence of that it is perfectly reasonable to not believe in a being unsupported by evidence.

    Signs of this world, what are you talking about?

    The highlighted in bold, does not really explain much sir. To be honest, just because they are of the Muslim faith does not mean that they would not take the fault out of Islam.
    Of course it does. To admit there are errors in the Quran would be to admit that Islam is false and that Allah doesn’t exist. And as being Muslim is often a huge part of someone’s identity they’re very unlikely to do this. And as I said, indoctrination has already impaired their critical thinking abilities and ensured that their ability to leave the faith as unlikely.

    They would do because they do not desire for their followers to be misguided. And they are not indoctrinated in their faith. Because they take all perspectives and are open-minded, regardless of the stigma that goes around of them.
    Of course they’re indoctrinated into their faith, just as the overwhelming majority of all religionists.
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    (Original post by constantine2016)
    I never said to 'create' is a human characteristic. I said to have a beginning is a human and animal feature as humans and animals cannot exist forever. However, many philosophers and poets, such as William Blake, believed that the human ability to create things was an example of humans being created in the image of God.

    Something else had to always have eternally existed for other things to come into existence subsequently. Otherwise, you end up with a illogical argument that suggests a infinite chain of something always creating something and so on etc. God is what Aristotle calls the Prime Mover. Unmovable itself but able to move other things into existence.

    That is a false analogy though, much like the watchmaker argument. A fire-breathing dragon is very different to God, a being whose concept has existed for centuries. Dragons were never believed to have been as real as God. Information about dragons were passed down through oral traditions such as folktales which everyone knew to be mere stories. Moreover, dragons have never inspired philosophical writings to the same level that the concept of God has. Therefore, this analogy doesn't work as the two things are not remotely similar.

    God being a figment of the imagination is your opinion. It is not objective truth in the same way that theists believing in a God is true.
    I don’t really see poets and philosophers as qualified to judge whether there is or is not an all mighty higher being tbh.

    I wasn’t actually claiming there was an imaginary invisible dragon, I was explaining that word of mouth isn’t a credible source or ‘evidence’ of something existing. God is passed down in stories, written by man. Religious scripture proves that humans always like to believe in something more meaningful and powerful watching over them. But it doesn’t prove god exists.

    I never claimed to know whether god is real, as I’ve said previously and many times, there’s no way to prove it either way. Just like the invisible fire breathing dragon.
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    (Original post by constantine2016)
    You should read what I was replying to before jumping into a discussion. I was replying to someone saying a quote that said God is an example of human weakness.

    I was merely pointing out the generalisation in that statement when you consider the fact that many people have been inspired by their faith to be brave and compassionate.

    I don't see what right you have to look down on people who seek comfort and strength from spirituality.
    Nowhere have I said I look down on people who seek comfort etc from religion.

    There's more than one way of doing things. Promoting just religion when it is flawed while ignoring other ways that are just as good (if not better) - is either done out of ignorance or with the intention to deceive.

    & the underlined part is the probably the biggest problem with religion.
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    I do not believe in a religious god but I don’t rule out the possibility of a higher power. I do rule out the possibility of a benevolent god that intervenes in the world’s affairs though.

    The bottom line is though, I don’t care.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    My parents! Seriously Miszy, you need to brush up on basic biology if you didn’t know that a male body creates sperm and the female body makes eggs.



    If you are making claims he exists then the burden is on you to show it. In absence of that it is perfectly reasonable to not believe in a being unsupported by evidence.

    Signs of this world, what are you talking about?



    Of course it does. To admit there are errors in the Quran would be to admit that Islam is false and that Allah doesn’t exist. And as being Muslim is often a huge part of someone’s identity they’re very unlikely to do this. And as I said, indoctrination has already impaired their critical thinking abilities and ensured that their ability to leave the faith as unlikely.



    Of course they’re indoctrinated into their faith, just as the overwhelming majority of all religionists.
    Planta, how can a human create bodily fluid? If that was the case then the organs itself a human creates that too? Such as our facial features and what have you? The sperm and the egg itself is incredible creation MashaAllah(I highly doubt that human thought of this themselves. Evolution has been going on for generations). I am aware of what a male produces and a female produces however that is not what I have written sir. Please refer back to my original post if in confusion.

    No burden is on me to prove anything. " for you is my religion for you its your religion. You have been told time and again but its all up to you sir if you want to refute. Thats your choice at the end of the day. The Holy Quraan is enough proof for you if anything. yet you reject that. The Hadeeth is another proof yet you reject this too. Therefore its entirely upon you sir to prove its not true.

    One can only guide and that itself is from Allah Alhamdulliah.

    Signs of this world?- I thought that was self explanatory. Obviously not. But thats for you to figure out not from me though. I rather you use that clever brain Allah gave you to figure this out for yourself.

    They are more open than what you think. If there was a fault in the Holy Quraan or Islam itself they would speak up. I guarantee you that much for certain. Having spent a lengthy period of my time in their esteemed company.

    I relate to you a true story about a female coming to an Islamic scholar to 'debate' to him about Allah. He simply gave her the detail and said "it's all up to you if Allah gives you guidance that's from him and not me, though you do not have to follow Islam if you are having doubts.". Now, how do you verify what I have stated is true? 🤔. I'm not stating it's not it happened in front of a class of 28 students back when I was in Thalithaa. Alhamdulliah. But my point here is that you demand proof which we can only give you two of in this world, but you reject it. That's not an issue with us. That's an issue between you and Allah sir.

    They would not keep it concealed for what benefit would that achieve?

    They have to learn about their religion somewhere if that is what takes their interest of course? Thats not indoctrination.
 
 
 
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