Turn on thread page Beta
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by constantine2016)
    You should read what I was replying to before jumping into a discussion. I was replying to someone saying a quote that said God is an example of human weakness.

    I was merely pointing out the generalisation in that statement when you consider the fact that many people have been inspired by their faith to be brave and compassionate.

    I don't see what right you have to look down on people who seek comfort and strength from spirituality.
    Nowhere have I said I look down on people who seek comfort etc from religion.

    There's more than one way of doing things. Promoting just religion when it is flawed while ignoring other ways that are just as good (if not better) - is either done out of ignorance or with the intention to deceive.

    & the underlined part is the probably the biggest problem with religion.
    Online

    15
    ReputationRep:
    I do not believe in a religious god but I don’t rule out the possibility of a higher power. I do rule out the possibility of a benevolent god that intervenes in the world’s affairs though.

    The bottom line is though, I don’t care.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    My parents! Seriously Miszy, you need to brush up on basic biology if you didn’t know that a male body creates sperm and the female body makes eggs.



    If you are making claims he exists then the burden is on you to show it. In absence of that it is perfectly reasonable to not believe in a being unsupported by evidence.

    Signs of this world, what are you talking about?



    Of course it does. To admit there are errors in the Quran would be to admit that Islam is false and that Allah doesn’t exist. And as being Muslim is often a huge part of someone’s identity they’re very unlikely to do this. And as I said, indoctrination has already impaired their critical thinking abilities and ensured that their ability to leave the faith as unlikely.



    Of course they’re indoctrinated into their faith, just as the overwhelming majority of all religionists.
    Planta, how can a human create bodily fluid? If that was the case then the organs itself a human creates that too? Such as our facial features and what have you? The sperm and the egg itself is incredible creation MashaAllah(I highly doubt that human thought of this themselves. Evolution has been going on for generations). I am aware of what a male produces and a female produces however that is not what I have written sir. Please refer back to my original post if in confusion.

    No burden is on me to prove anything. " for you is my religion for you its your religion. You have been told time and again but its all up to you sir if you want to refute. Thats your choice at the end of the day. The Holy Quraan is enough proof for you if anything. yet you reject that. The Hadeeth is another proof yet you reject this too. Therefore its entirely upon you sir to prove its not true.

    One can only guide and that itself is from Allah Alhamdulliah.

    Signs of this world?- I thought that was self explanatory. Obviously not. But thats for you to figure out not from me though. I rather you use that clever brain Allah gave you to figure this out for yourself.

    They are more open than what you think. If there was a fault in the Holy Quraan or Islam itself they would speak up. I guarantee you that much for certain. Having spent a lengthy period of my time in their esteemed company.

    I relate to you a true story about a female coming to an Islamic scholar to 'debate' to him about Allah. He simply gave her the detail and said "it's all up to you if Allah gives you guidance that's from him and not me, though you do not have to follow Islam if you are having doubts.". Now, how do you verify what I have stated is true? 🤔. I'm not stating it's not it happened in front of a class of 28 students back when I was in Thalithaa. Alhamdulliah. But my point here is that you demand proof which we can only give you two of in this world, but you reject it. That's not an issue with us. That's an issue between you and Allah sir.

    They would not keep it concealed for what benefit would that achieve?

    They have to learn about their religion somewhere if that is what takes their interest of course? Thats not indoctrination.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    x.
    I specifically mentioned theism as opposed to religion.

    The belief that there's always a being observing/caring and willing to help you has helped countless of people with struggles and difficulties pertaining to their mental health, whether you appreciate this or not. And before you mention that there's lots of other "solutions", I should remind you that the only valid examples here are those without (obvious) adverse effects.

    Take care.
    Offline

    6
    ReputationRep:
    Guys I will pray for all of you today hoping you find god the way i did. Much love for all of you and I hope find him
    Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Of course they’re indoctrinated into their faith, just as the overwhelming majority of all religionists.
    Could like the data for this ?

    As far as I know, when children ask questions regarding religion they are given answers and are not shunned or instructed to think uncritically (of course this is not to say that it does not happen, unfortunately).
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MiszshorTea786)
    Planta, how can a human create bodily fluid?
    The body creates fluids all the time. You really do need to learn basic biology.

    If that was the case then the organs itself a human creates that too? Such as our facial features and what have you?
    Your genes regulate the processes that create your organs and facial features.

    The sperm and the egg itself is incredible creation MashaAllah(I highly doubt that human thought of this themselves. Evolution has been going on for generations). I am aware of what a male produces and a female produces however that is not what I have written sir. Please refer back to my original post if in confusion.
    The bodies create sperm and eggs. The fact we do it without consciously thinking doesn’t change this.

    No burden is on me to prove anything. " for you is my religion for you its your religion. You have been told time and again but its all up to you sir if you want to refute. Thats your choice at the end of the day. The Holy Quraan is enough proof for you if anything. yet you reject that. The Hadeeth is another proof yet you reject this too. Therefore its entirely upon you sir to prove its not true.


    No, the Quran is proof that Allah doesn’t exist.


    One can only guide and that itself is from Allah Alhamdulliah.

    Signs of this world?- I thought that was self explanatory. Obviously not. But thats for you to figure out not from me though. I rather you use that clever brain Allah gave you to figure this out for yourself.
    No. If you make random and vague claims then the burden is on you to explain them.

    They are more open than what you think. If there was a fault in the Holy Quraan or Islam itself they would speak up. I guarantee you that much for certain. Having spent a lengthy period of my time in their esteemed company.

    They would not keep it concealed for what benefit would that achieve?

    They have to learn about their religion somewhere if that is what takes their interest of course? Thats not indoctrination.
    They don’t see the faults due to their indoctrination, that’s the point. As explained, the rest of us have identified the many faults without a problem.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mil99)
    I specifically mentioned theism as opposed to religion.

    The belief that there's always a being observing/caring and willing to help you has helped countless of people with struggles and difficulties pertaining to their mental health, whether you appreciate this or not. And before you mention that there's lots of other "solutions", I should remind you that the only valid examples here are those without (obvious) adverse effects.

    Take care.
    Theism is religion. Calling it something else changes nothing.

    Agree your point that the only valid examples are those without adverse effects. Religion based solution also have adverse effects like destroying the sanity of those it claims to save. How many child abuse victims came out of religious institutions? & did religion deal with this or did the solution had to come from non-religious institutions, like the govt and the Police?

    Appreciate religion worked for you and other religious people. But you cannot ignore the areas where religion not only did not work, but actually caused harm to many people.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Theism is religion. Calling it something else changes nothing.
    Well, it seems that one of us isn't up to date with definitions.

    To my knowledge and understanding, theism is the belief in a God (which can include specifically an interventionalist God) where as religion implies the social or political aspect involving this belief and it's propagated by mankind for mankind (and thus no longer a personal relationship with a God).

    To summarise, religion is the social embodiment of theism and generally is more restrictive (primarily because it relies on group based belief and practices e.g praying or attending religious events).
    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Agree your point that the only valid examples are those without adverse effects.
    And therefore you agreed that theism is without adverse effects ?
    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Appreciate religion worked for you and other religious people. But you cannot ignore the areas where religion not only did not work, but actually caused harm to many people.
    I am not talking about religion but rather theism. Since it doesn't officially involve the typical social element that religion does, all of your criticisms are irrelevant and not valid.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    They don’t see the faults due to their indoctrination, that’s the point. As explained, the rest of us have identified the many faults without a problem.
    I find it funny how you decide to skip the important parts in my explanation. You only answer what you can, and just ignore the rest because you're critical thinking was flawed.
    Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MiszshorTea786)
    I find it funny how you decide to skip the important parts in my explanation. You only answer what you can, and just ignore the rest because you're critical thinking was flawed.
    You’re seeing things. I replied to all the main parts of your post. You lack a basic understanding of biology and have failed to provide any evidence for Allah’s existence.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    You’re seeing things. I replied to all the main parts of your post. You lack a basic understanding of biology and have failed to provide any evidence for Allah’s existence.
    I like to see things in wider perspective sir. That doesn't mean I don't know my biology.

    Just like you won't believe Allah doesn't exist I refuse to believe what biologist have to say in terms of human evolution. I don't care about evidence in this field because they do not do assist to think beyond the picture of reproduction.

    The 2 elements are sufficent proof in this world. You reject it therefore that's rejecting Islam. That's not my issue that's between you and Allah sir.
    Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MiszshorTea786)
    you're critical thinking was flawed.
    This is very interesting.

    I personally believe people who conform to the beliefs of a group without considering the argument somewhat objectively (and thus never seem to contradict eachother) are likely to lack critical reasoning.

    And so, it becomes ironic when people here claim to be logical or rational.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Mil99)
    This is very interesting.

    I personally believe people who conform to the beliefs of a group without considering the argument somewhat objectively (and thus never seem to contradict eachother) are likely to lack critical reasoning.

    And so, it becomes ironic when people here claim to be logical or rational.
    I don't refer to ones thinking capabilities unless deemed appropriate. In this context I had no option but to result to critical thinking because I don't spoon feed information.

    It's best to leave an individual to think for themselves.

    As evident from our conversation.
    Posted on the TSR App. Download from Apple or Google Play
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    To understand god you need to stop thinking of god and some dude sitting around and judging all of his creation. God isn't a person, it is an attempt at humanising the energy that holds the universe together. Like the electricity that makes a clock tick.

    We look at the world not how it is, but filtered through our ego. We live our lives with a running dialogue in our heads; all the space that is silent we cram up with distractions. With our phones and music and books and stuff because that silence is uncomfortable.
    If you go out to a mountain range or a lake or somewhere not touched by people, it feels very beautiful and peaceful and connected to nature.

    This feeling of beauty is seen through the lens of ego as well so we have organised religion which is influenced by society and economy and law. The end result of what is fed to us in religious institutions is no longer the base connection to nature and the universe that is god, but the centuries of human law.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Unkilled)
    The whole problem with heaven and hell is that every action in your life is governed by whether you will go to heaven or hell. You don't do the right things for right's sake, you do it because you're scared.
    if you do it because you're scared what kind of god is it then?
    (Original post by Jang Gwangnam)
    My friend we aren't all whole hearted believers. With all these atheists in this world its hard to expel even a small thought of doubt from your mind.
    i too myself am not a rock hard atheist either but i do accept the possible notion of one existing if there's enough sufficient reliable evidence to prove it
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mil99)
    Well, it seems that one of us isn't up to date with definitions.
    To my knowledge and understanding, theism is the belief in a God (which can include specifically an interventionalist God) where as religion implies the social or political aspect involving this belief and it's propagated by mankind for mankind (and thus no longer a personal relationship with a God).[/quote]

    An attempt at fudging the issue by over complicating what is actually a simple argument and then inserting an answer that doesn't relate to the original argument. Nice try.

    (Original post by Mil99)
    To summarise, religion is the social embodiment of theism and generally is more restrictive (primarily because it relies on group based belief and practices e.g praying or attending religious events).
    And therefore you agreed that theism is without adverse effects ?
    Nope. Projecting something I never said. Although religion worked for you and others like you, doesn't mean it works overall. I refer back to my earlier points about genocide and crimes committed in the name of religion.


    (Original post by Mil99)
    I am not talking about religion but rather theism. Since it doesn't officially involve the typical social element that religion does, all of your criticisms are irrelevant and not valid.
    Wrong. Religion (or theism as you like to call it) involves the social element and cannot exist without it. What is religion without believers? Like the dinosaurs who no longer exist and nobody cares about them.

    Why do religion put so much emphasis on seeking converts and controlling institutions like marriage, having children, education, society, even over how people die, if the society or the control of it, is not at the heart of religion? Religion seeks to control the community, the country and ultimately the world. Your God aims to be not a god of one religion among many other religions, but the only God of the only religion. This is religious totalitarianism. Totalitarianism really needs people and societies to help it achieve world domination.

    Just as a totalitarian religion cannot accept the validity of other religions and no religion, a believer of a totalitarian religion cannot accept the non existence of God or their god-like dictator/prophet/saviour. If their God does not exist, their belief is meaningless.

    And that I think, is what many believers are scared of.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ThePricklyOne)
    Nowhere have I said I look down on people who seek comfort etc from religion.

    There's more than one way of doing things. Promoting just religion when it is flawed while ignoring other ways that are just as good (if not better) - is either done out of ignorance or with the intention to deceive.

    & the underlined part is the probably the biggest problem with religion.
    Not everyone is happy being a atheist. A lot of people are happy believing in a religion. Trying to suggest following one idea is better for everyone, is incorrect because we are all individuals with our own way of understanding things.

    Could one not say the same thing about atheism? Promoting atheism whilst ignoring equally good ideologies such as deism/pantheism is an intention to deceive.

    There are many religions in the world. You are going to have to be a bit specific as to which religions you are referring to.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by constantine2016)
    Not everyone is happy being a atheist. A lot of people are happy believing in a religion. Trying to suggest following one idea is better for everyone, is incorrect because we are all individuals with our own way of understanding things.

    Could one not say the same thing about atheism? Promoting atheism whilst ignoring equally good ideologies such as deism/pantheism is an intention to deceive.

    There are many religions in the world. You are going to have to be a bit specific as to which religions you are referring to.
    Nowhere have I stated following one way is best. The person I'm arguing with is ignoring the many negative sides to belief in God, so I've pointed this out with examples why religion/God isn't all that great. Otherposters have also done the same.

    Atheism, when it is turned to a dogmatic totalitarian belief that doesn't allow dissent, is equally evil. But there are no good ideologies in religions that seek to control everyone and everything. The intention to deceive is what your faith especially has done for thousands of years (the Prince of Peace, the God of Peace - really?). The fact that some good has come out of it doesn't excuse the bad or the massive deathtoll sacrificed for the benefit of growing the religion.

    I think it is obvious what religions I'm referring to. Certainly not the small/non violent religions that can happily co-exist with other groups of people (with or without religion), and who have no reference to violence against non-believers etc. in their scriptures.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MiszshorTea786)
    I like to see things in wider perspective sir. That doesn't mean I don't know my biology.
    MiszShortee, you really do need to stop with these word salads that are meaningless. You are not looking at it "from a wider perspective". You were asking ridiculous questions which we know the answer to, biologically. Our bodies create the sperm and egg which contain all the genetic information needed to construct a human being. There's no god needed for this nor evidence of one involved in this process.

    Just like you won't believe Allah doesn't exist I refuse to believe what biologist have to say in terms of human evolution. I don't care about evidence in this field because they do not do assist to think beyond the picture of reproduction.
    Evolution is true whether you like it or not and it's actually backed up by tonnes upon tonnes of evidence. It really does speak volumes about your level of indoctrination that you are happily admitting that you'll refuse to accept evidence because it goes against your worldview. Evolution is much more than simply reproduction, although how that's relevant to anything I don't really know.

    The 2 elements are sufficent proof in this world. You reject it therefore that's rejecting Islam. That's not my issue that's between you and Allah sir.
    But they are clearly not sufficient because they are riddled with faults, conclusively proving Allah is a fictitious being.
 
 
 
Poll
How are you feeling in the run-up to Results Day 2018?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.