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Why do women want gender equality in the workplace, but not in dating? watch

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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    Have you ever actually met a woman in real life or do you just make your assumptions off movies? Where are these places that have one “good looking high class male” standing around, surrounded by eligible females waiting to be selected?
    Not just one male obviously. Maybe several. But going by the Pareto principle, approximately 20% of men get 80% of the women. So it's going to be approximately 1 in 5 men who are sought after by the majority of women.

    The 80% majority of women will usually just wait, trying to look as pretty as possible, giving absurdly obscure signals, hoping eventually one of the men will notice and ask her out.

    The intelligent people just walk up and talk to people. That gives you a far better chance than this nonsense 1950's attitude of "oh a man should ask me out".
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    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    That is the key problem. A woman should not have the right to take another person’s life.

    If she gets pregnant and finds out that she is unable to take care of the offspring then there are opportunities for adoption and public support. There are women who take that step rather than terminating the unborn child.

    I am getting tired of going round circles. It is ridiculous how people have attempted to bring up reasons to justify the killing of an unborn child.

    In the end, like i wrote before, the woman can do whatever she wants. If she rips out her womb today, i would not care. However, my view is nobody should have a right over the fate of another person’s life.
    Its not killing an unborn child though, its a foetus; not a person, if it was a person it would have right and liberties
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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    Where are these places that have one “good looking high class male” standing around, surrounded by eligible females waiting to be selected?Have you ever actually met a woman in real life or do you just make your assumptions off movies?



    it happens..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hpv1l3kES8


    Spoiler:
    Show




    being serious now ...it doesn't tend to happen quite like this in real life, on dating sites though what typically happens isn't a million miles away from this...



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    To all the men and women on this thread, do you agree to this video?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HjSh_esW9W4

    I think this should be used to discuss dating. Feel free to disagree.
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    (Original post by EqualitySloth)
    Its not killing an unborn child though, its a foetus; not a person, if it was a person it would have right and liberties
    What? Is a foetus not an unborn child?

    What do you think about this video?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HjSh_esW9W4
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    (Original post by snowman77)
    It's so funny to see women all pining over 1 particular guy (usually some good looking, high status male), trying to look hotter than all the other girls, waiting and hoping that guy will ask her out (then when he doesn't, they sit at home wallowing in self-pity, watching rom-coms and eating tubs of Ben&Jerry's).

    You'd have so much more success if you walked over to him, actually talked to him and made your intentions very clear from the outset. The women who get the men they want, either ask the man out themselves or make the signals so blindingly obvious, it's literally impossible for the guy to miss.
    In an ideal world this is how it would be, but a bit of honesty from me here.

    I'm a man, and if a woman put the effort in and was the one that came up to me I would automatically think there is something wrong with her or something dodgy is going on. I know it shouldn't be like that, but society isn't ready for women to take the lead in this. Whether we like it or not, it's the men that do the chasing, anything else is out of the norm and questions are asked.

    Another example...

    Dating sites. If you set up a woman's profile it is almost guaranteed that the women will have men after men messaging her. She doesn't need to make the move because she will definitely get offers, so as a man on a dating site if a woman messaged you first the chances are all is not what it seems. Maybe it's a fake scam profile, maybe she's crazy, there could be a million and one reasons. She could well be genuine, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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    (Original post by EqualitySloth)
    Its not killing an unborn child though, its a foetus; not a person, if it was a person it would have right and liberties
    In Canada, for instance, women weren't considered 'Persons' until 1929.

    Would you agree that, despite them not being considered persons, terminating their life prior to 1929 without their permission would be considered wrong and bad?
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    (Original post by EpicBrum)
    In an ideal world this is how it would be, but a bit of honesty from me here.

    I'm a man, and if a woman put the effort in and was the one that came up to me I would automatically think there is something wrong with her or something dodgy is going on. I know it shouldn't be like that, but society isn't ready for women to take the lead in this. Whether we like it or not, it's the men that do the chasing, anything else is out of the norm and questions are asked.

    Another example...

    Dating sites. If you set up a woman's profile it is almost guaranteed that the women will have men after men messaging her. She doesn't need to make the move because she will definitely get offers, so as a man on a dating site if a woman messaged you first the chances are all is not what it seems. Maybe it's a fake scam profile, maybe she's crazy, there could be a million and one reasons. She could well be genuine, but I wouldn't bet on it.
    Yes, women who do approach men are usually doing it for an ulterior motive or as a piss-take.

    Same goes for dating sites - it's basically always going to be a gay/bi man posing as a woman.

    But if you make it clear you're serious, genuine and not trying to mess him around (and in online dating, you actually prove you're a real girl by going on webcam), the guy will be more than pleased you made the first move.

    Also men have higher sex drives, which explains why men are more likely to pursue women than the other way around.


    Just a sidepoint: online dating is awful for men. Odds are stacked heavily against you.
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    It is just absurd how this turned into an offensive conversation real quick, and talking of gender stereotypes I have to admit, the girls in this conversation destroyed them all.
    Being a female myself, I thought about all the things that you just mentioned above, we usually talk about 'equality' in the sense that women are being treated unequally. If man now are concerned that there is inequality on the other part of the spectrum, than I'm glad. This means that there are just two genders who think that the grass is greener on the other genders territory.
    On the other hand, I find myself fitting the description above, I love it when a guy treats me well (eg.opening the door) while at the same time treating me as an equal (eg.in regards to having equal rights in decision making). Can't this be though as a product of the differences between genders and therefore things that make them happy? My bf always says 'It makes me feel like a king only when I treat you like a queen'. That being said, I wouldn't want to generalise, bc individual differences and all that, but I think that there's shared pleasure even in something which seems as unaided as 'giving your girlfriend your coat when she's cold'. Yes, that might make her feel warm, but the real contribution of such gesture I believe that stands on the fact that the female feels loved and the male feeling powerful and able to 'protect' his girl. I don't think this is either female or male egoism, rather a mutually beneficial innate behaviour (as well as socially constructed).
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    (Original post by ThatOldGuy)
    In Canada, for instance, women weren't considered 'Persons' until 1929.

    Would you agree that, despite them not being considered persons, terminating their life prior to 1929 without their permission would be considered wrong and bad?
    But those woman were alive, it all depends on when you think a foetus is ‘alive’
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    (Original post by EqualitySloth)
    But those woman were alive, it all depends on when you think a foetus is ‘alive’
    A foetus is “alive” at conception. If it was dead it will be classified as a stillbirth. It lives and grows until it is ready to be born.
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    (Original post by snowman77)
    Yes, women who do approach men are usually doing it for an ulterior motive or as a piss-take.

    Same goes for dating sites - it's basically always going to be a gay/bi man posing as a woman.

    But if you make it clear you're serious, genuine and not trying to mess him around (and in online dating, you actually prove you're a real girl by going on webcam), the guy will be more than pleased you made the first move.

    Also men have higher sex drives, which explains why men are more likely to pursue women than the other way around.


    Just a sidepoint: online dating is awful for men. Odds are stacked heavily against you.
    All of what you say is true, but it does show that there is a lot of negativity attached to women making moves on men.

    If I am in a night club and a woman hits on me, I'm not gonna lie, my immediate thought will be "wow, she must be easy". As I say, this is for the simple fact that women don't need to go after men, so for her to come up to me I immediately assume it's something she must do all the time.

    Whether it's fine for someone to sleep around or not is a different story, but that is my initial thought and it would take a lot to change it. So if the woman happens to be genuine then it makes it harder for her and that's a shame, it really shouldn't be like that.

    I'm not single any more, but if I was, I would love it if society would allow for women to make moves on men, because I for one don't like doing it.
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    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    A foetus is “alive” at conception...
    Being 'alive' in a nominal sense isn't the same as being a person. You have made it clear you regard a fertilised egg as a person but plenty of us don't.
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    This misunderstanding of the problem at hand is a key part of why it is difficult to achieve change.

    1. As reported by the telegraph in 2017 "For women working full time the average weekly wage stood at £13.19 in 2017- 9.1% less than the average £14.59 earned by men working full time"
    2. There is evidence from studies in UK, Europe and the US that only between 2% and 6% of sexual harassment accusations are SUSPECTED to be false. One in five women is reported to have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace. AddiNG TO THIS 75% of harassment cases in the US go unreported showing this to be a huge issue. Adding to this reports of sexual abuse should benefit both men and women, men should also be encouraged to speak up against harassment.
    3. Why shouldn't we have the same opportunities as men? We account for 50% of the population, in the UK women are a third more likely to attend university. How is it fair to be set at a disadvantage due to our gender. Also, not all women choose to have children and even if they do, men aren't given fewer chances due to having children. Society enforces the expectation that women should take maternity leave after they give birth to raise their child. So if this is society's expectation shouldn't they evolve to accommodate this?
    4. Isn't it also true that women who make the first move are called out for being too forward?
    5. Many of these expectations presented are not true of many relationships.
    6. A big part of the feminist movement is the belief in equality and that there should be a break down of stereotypes allowing men to be more vulnerable and share their emotions. This also will encourage positive mental health.
    7. In the past 20 years the number of mothers in full time work has risen by one million. That makes 75% of mothers in employmeIs it so unfair that men are expected to put an equal amount of effort into housework and childcare?

    (Original post by snowman77)
    This is what I don't understand about the modern day gender equality/feminism movement. They want equality in some areas, but other areas they are happy for things to stay the same as long as they receive the benefit.

    Women want equal treatment in the workplace with their male colleagues. They want equal pay (FWIW the gender pay gap is a myth - same job for same hours get paid the same, otherwise it's illegal), they don't want to experience sexual harassment in the workplace (what about all the false accusations which ruin men's careers?), they want the same opportunities men have, they want equal opportunities for promotion (despite many of them taking time off for maternity leave).

    This is all fair enough. Except they don't want equality in dating. Men are still expected to:

    - ask the woman out and face possible rejection (women might give subtle hints, but under no circumstances will they ask the man out - that is "his job"
    - pay for the first date (and possible subsequent dates as well)
    - propose to the woman
    - treat her with meals/gifts
    - hold open the door for her
    - give up his coat if she's cold, so he can freeze (but never the other way around)
    - put the majority of effort into sex (this is centered around pleasing the woman - the man's enjoyment is always assumed)
    - be manly and dominant, never show any weak emotions, keep his problems bottled up because otherwise it's "unmanly"
    - household chores must now be shared. Women no longer have to do all the cooking and cleaning, it's shared equally between men, because otherwise it's gender discrimination/oppression. Despite the fact men are still seen as the primary breadwinner in the household and a man without a job is a virtual disaster.


    So back to the original question: Why do women want gender equality in the workplace (and indeed many other areas), but not in dating? I'm interested to hear to views of men, women and any feminists.
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    (Original post by Axiomasher)
    Being 'alive' in a nominal sense isn't the same as being a person. You have made it clear you regard a fertilised egg as a person but plenty of us don't.
    Can you tell me what you think are the fundamental determinants that show proof of life?
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    (Original post by Axiomasher)
    Being 'alive' in a nominal sense isn't the same as being a person. You have made it clear you regard a fertilised egg as a person but plenty of us don't.
    So true. Plants are considered alive, it doesn’t make them people.
    I guess if people believe in the concept of a soul, and that we have a soul that is some kind of complex entity that thinks and feels which begins at the moment of conception, then I can understand why they’d be against that. But valuing a foetus over the mental wellbeing and quality of life of an actual living person is ridiculous to me. :confused:
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    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    Can you tell me what you think are the fundamental determinants that show proof of life?
    That's not an easy one to answer to everyone's satisfaction but whether or not a foetus is alive at any given point isn't the same thing as determining whether or not it is a person. In any event we can hardly describe a foetus as an independently existing living thing until birth at best.
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    (Original post by Axiomasher)
    That's not an easy one to answer to everyone's satisfaction but whether or not a foetus is alive at any given point isn't the same thing as determining whether or not it is a person. In any event we can hardly describe a foetus as an independently existing living thing until birth at best.
    I have explained this to other posters but I guess that i have to do so again.

    Ignoring religious versions of life, we should look at agreed scientific versions. There are 2 main determinants for the existence of life in a human being: a beating heart and a functioning brain.

    A beating heart is the central determinant and is the most important of them all. If your heart stops you are dead.

    The close second is the brain, which coordinates everything that happens in our body and therefore our life. The brain has been argued to be the last thing that shuts down when a person dies. Rigor mortis, which is the third stage of death, is the body muscles’ reaction to a dead brain.

    Now, I assume that everyone would accept both elements as the key determinants of human life. So when you look at a foetus or an unborn child, you see the exactly same determinants of human life from as early as 6 weeks old.

    The idea that an unborn child with a beating heart and functioning plus developing brain is not considered human is very astounding.

    Some people have used the argument that the unborn child is dependent on the mother, so it is not a separate entity. Yet, they feel uncomfortable to kill a 8 or 9 month baby, but alright with a 6 months or 24 weeks baby.
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    (Original post by EpicBrum)
    All of what you say is true, but it does show that there is a lot of negativity attached to women making moves on men.

    If I am in a night club and a woman hits on me, I'm not gonna lie, my immediate thought will be "wow, she must be easy". As I say, this is for the simple fact that women don't need to go after men, so for her to come up to me I immediately assume it's something she must do all the time.

    Whether it's fine for someone to sleep around or not is a different story, but that is my initial thought and it would take a lot to change it. So if the woman happens to be genuine then it makes it harder for her and that's a shame, it really shouldn't be like that.

    I'm not single any more, but if I was, I would love it if society would allow for women to make moves on men, because I for one don't like doing it.
    So basically you think it's weird for a woman to approach a man. That's your point of view. Plenty of women approach men and plenty of men have no problem with that. Plenty even like it. Society does allow it...and apps like Bumble are making it increasingly normal. Also women can approach men in a non-nightclub setting...

    It strikes me that any weird outdated opinions on this thread are only expressed by male voices. All the women here are disagreeing with every backwards comment. I know plenty of forward-thinking, progressive men, just not apparently on the student room!

    Also 'women don't need to go after men' - what the heck? Some men are shy, some men don't chat girls up, some men don't approach girls at all. What do you think we just wait around like wilting wallflowers and don't bother to approach anyone we might think is interesting ever? It's not as if women only ever approach someone if they're interested in them romantically either. In my experience few men approach women - it's a daunting prospect - particularly to approach a random group of people you don't know. It's daunting both for men and women to approach someone of the opposite sex they might be interested in.

    Why are all the boys on this thread propagating this outdated notion of masculinity like they've been reading some kind of 1950s etiquette manual?
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    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    ...Now, I assume that everyone would accept both elements as the key determinants of human life..
    That assumption is an error. Of course a growing foetus will have emergent functioning organs like a heart and brain but these do not of themselves constitute either independent life (as at birth) or personhood.
 
 
 
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