most commonly attended universities for those in pupillage Watch

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NDGAARONDI
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Hi All

I've contacted staff at the Bar Council to enquire about statistics relating to education backgrounds of those students studying for the BVC. However, they could not help me on this not. However, they provided me with an alternative which may be of some use to you all.

Here is part of my letter I sent to them:

Dear Sir/Madam,
I have been researching a lot on where to go to study an LLB and it seems it matters considerably where you study. Is there any information I acquire to see how many current students studying the BVC have graduated from? It seems like if you cannot study at Oxford or Cambridge it might be a tough job. Is there similar information regarding pupillages?
Response:

I attach information showing the most commonly attended universities for those in pupillage. I do not have this data for those on the BVC, but it should be noted that pupillage is the more difficult of the two stages of training to obtain. Also note that the list only includes universities where 4 or more QLD students obtained pupillage. While it is considered important by some people from which university the degree was obtained, this view is less common than in the past. Overall around a third of pupils attended "ex-polytechnic" universities (10% more than Oxbridge). The distinction now between universities is not so much its age or history but its quality of teaching and students it produces.

I hope this helps, and please feel free to ask any further questions you may have.
There should be a successful attachment to this...

Any thoughts?
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NDGAARONDI
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Here's the attachment.
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kingslaw
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Kings College 3rd behind Oxbridge eh?!? Told you Kings College Law School was well worth considering (excuse my gloating, but these stats shocked even me!!).
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NDGAARONDI
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(Original post by kingslaw)
Kings College 3rd behind Oxbridge eh?!? Told you Kings College Law School was well worth considering (excuse my gloating, but these stats shocked even me!!).
They surprised me and yes KCL is still on my list

However, it has been said that other universities have more people on the solicitor route. Apparently this happens with UCL.

But there are some good universities that aren't on the list. I didn't see Queen Mary on there but Westminster is. I will be looking around for more statistics.
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chica
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Hey! Sorry, I have a really old version of Word on this PC...can't see the list Would someone mind typing in the first few unis ?
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kingslaw
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(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
They surprised me and yes KCL is still on my list

However, it has been said that other universities have more people on the solicitor route. Apparently this happens with UCL.

But there are some good universities that aren't on the list. I didn't see Queen Mary on there but Westminster is. I will be looking around for more statistics.
There is a website somewhere which asked all solicitor firms which universities they preferred to recruit from. I vaguely remember Bristol doing quite well, and KCL and UCL coming pretty much neck and neck. Cant remember the site though.
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kingslaw
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(Original post by chica)
Hey! Sorry, I have a really old version of Word on this PC...can't see the list Would someone mind typing in the first few unis ?
Oxford University
38 (73)
9.0%
Cambridge University
37 (58)
8.7%
Kings College, London
13 (16)
3.1%
University of Bristol
11 (17)
2.6%
University of East Anglia
11 (15)
2.6%
University of Nottingham
10 (15)
2.4%
University of Sheffield
10 (13)
2.4%
University of Liverpool
9 (14)
2.1%
University College Wales, Aberystwyth
9 (9)
2.1%
University of Northumbria
9 (9)
2.1%
University of Kent at Canterbury
8 (10)
1.9%
Middlesex University
8 (8)
1.9%
University of Durham
7 (16)
1.7%
Manchester Metropolitan University
7 (12)
1.7%
University of Leeds
7 (10)
1.7%
University of Leicester
7 (9)
1.7%
University of Hull
7 (8)
1.7%
Kingston University
7 (8)
1.7%
Nottingham Trent University
7 (8)
1.7%
University College London
6 (14)
1.4%
University of Hertfordshire
6 (8)
1.4%
University of the West of England
6 (7)
1.4%
Oxford Brookes University
6 (6)
1.4%
Thames Valley University
6 (6)
1.4%
University of Central Lancashire
6 (6)
1.4%
University of Exeter
5 (9)
1.2%
South Bank University
5 (6)
1.2%
Southampton University
5 (7)
1.2%
Manchester University
4 (11)
0.9%
University of London (External)
4 (9)
0.9%
University of Warwick
4 (8)
0.9%
London Guildhall University
4 (5)
0.9%
University of Westminster
4 (5)
0.9%
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NDGAARONDI
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Or try this....
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chica
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Thanks for the lists! :eek: Where's LSE?! How come UCL is so low?! If my maths is correct...there are 422 students in pupillage. Only 422?! I knew it would be competitive but not *that* competitive.
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~ o ~
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Manchester Met above Manchester Uni??? :eek: might I add ...waaayy above! Thats shocking
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NDGAARONDI
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(Original post by chica)
Thanks for the lists! :eek: Where's LSE?! How come UCL is so low?!
Because more of those students at LSE and UCL take the solicitor's route I guess.
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legalbeagle
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(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
Because more of those students at LSE and UCL take the solicitor's route I guess.
Could it not also be that the majority of law students from LSE either leave this country or do something totally law unrelated? eg banking, civil service, business,etc.
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chica
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(Original post by legalbeagle)
Could it not also be that the majority of law students from LSE either leave this country or do something totally law unrelated? eg banking, civil service, business,etc.
I suppose that's true, a lot of LSE students are international so they'd probably leave on completing the degree. Although, I'm not sure how many international students study law in England, they're more likely to do something like maths or econ which they can use in any country.

So it must be that LSE law students just don't become lawyers, or barristers anyway!

Looks like I'm all set to be a solicitor then
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kingslaw
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(Original post by chica)
I suppose that's true, a lot of LSE students are international so they'd probably leave on completing the degree. Although, I'm not sure how many international students study law in England, they're more likely to do something like maths or econ which they can use in any country.

So it must be that LSE law students just don't become lawyers, or barristers anyway!

Looks like I'm all set to be a solicitor then
They could go on into academia? Although it cant be so many that they've such a low ranking in the pupillage rankings.
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Six Dinners Sid
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Going to Oxbridge is still very important for the bar if you want to go to one of the 'Elite' Chambers (equally so is having a decent 1st), but i wouldn't advise anyone to be discouraged. Its definately true that some unis seem to produce more students who want to be solicitors though. me and all my mates want to be city solicitors (at durham).
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NDGAARONDI
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I was told by a current UCL student that appantly a lot more people apply for the LPC from UCL but with KCL it's the BVC

Interesting. I wonder what it is like for SOAS and QM...?
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Kurdt Morello
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i must say for my part that pupillage seems a rather unnecessary course given that since changes to the legal system in 1993 solicitors are able to do the same type of advocacy as barristers in both the magistrates' courts and the higher courts and can therefore attain the same prestige as barristers.

no doubt there is still a professional bias towards barristers but 4 or so solicitors have in fact made such a career out of advocacy that they recently took silk and in two cases became high court judges.

pupillage is very financially unrewarding and given the high competition for places at the bar and the lack of a guarantee that one could have a successful career as a barrister i think that becoming a solicitor is probably the smarter choice and the less soul-searching of the two, should one fail.
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NDGAARONDI
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The thing with gaining rights of audience in the higher courts through the solicitor-advocate route is that you need extra training for this, whereas barristers gain this right automatically. It's a handy route to go through. Perhaps certain areas of specialisms in law would prefer solicitor-advocates rather than just barristers or solicitors. Just a thought.
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Kurdt Morello
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(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
The thing with gaining rights of audience in the higher courts through the solicitor-advocate route is that you need extra training for this, whereas barristers gain this right automatically. It's a handy route to go through. Perhaps certain areas of specialisms in law would prefer solicitor-advocates rather than just barristers or solicitors. Just a thought.
a fair point - but then i take the view that since it is looking more and more likely that the two disciplines will eventually merge one is at an advantage coming from a solicitors background because in the end the benefits of automatic advocacy will be enjoyed by all + the already apparent pecuniary advantage of being a solicitor as compared with a junior barrister or worse yet a pupil at an Inns of Court
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jcw
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(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
a fair point - but then i take the view that since it is looking more and more likely that the two disciplines will eventually merge one is at an advantage coming from a solicitors background because in the end the benefits of automatic advocacy will be enjoyed by all + the already apparent pecuniary advantage of being a solicitor as compared with a junior barrister or worse yet a pupil at an Inns of Court
Firstly, I think most practising solicitors and barristers would dispell this common 'myth'. There is no realistic prospect of the bar merging with solicitors in the near future. If you go into the High Court, the chance of you seeing a solicitor advocating in any case (except quite trivial applications) is really quite low. Solicitors just do not build up the specialism (particularly in advocacy) that barristers do. Most often they don't get their rights of audience until very late; a pupil is on court from near day 1. If you want to be on your feet in court, become a barrister. The reality is that the bar has so much knowlege and experience, it will continue to train the best advocates and legal specialists, and it will not be threatened by solicitors firms. In fact, most firms are probably rather happy to have a competitive specialist bar available to them with experts in every area of law, rather than having to bring such expertise in-house. Similarly, as long as the bar continues to attract those with particularly strong intellects and advocacy skills, it will continue to thrive. The biggest threat to the self-employed bar is from another part of the bar: the employed bar!

Secondly, in terms of finances, if you compare like-for-like (ie: magic circle solicitor vs. pupil/junior at a leading commercial set), you'll find that the barrister does better. I'm going to be a barrister - my pupillage award is £37,500 (mostly tax-free). My friends are off to the magic circle - trainee wage is £28,000 (taxable) rising to £32,000 in their second year. I'll be qualified by my second year, and would expect to be earning *well* in excess of £32,000. Solicitors also hit a 'glass ceiling' very quickly - since they are waged, their earnings only increase gradually until partnership. On the other hand, barristers are self-employed and earn what they make. So, whilst the solicitor is working every hour god sends for their employer (and to ensure they get a shot at partnership), the barrister is earning money for themselves (and more work=more money). About the same time a solicitor makes partner, a barrister can take silk - commercial silk fees are very similar to a magic circle partner's 'pay'. So, in the end, the barrister does better. Of course, there are far fewer top commercial barristers than there are magic circle solicitors, but there are far fewer barristers overall. In other words, the prospects for an able candidate are far better as a barrister.

Thirdly, access-wise, about 950 graduates from the BVC are looking for pupillage (rather than returning to home jurisdictions, etc). Each year, over 700 people enter pupillage. A small minority fail to secure tenancy somewhere. Therefore the chance of failure is actually rather small. Of course, not all of those 700 are going into top commercial sets, but then most solicitors aren't going into magic circle firms! Of course, you need to be very clever to become a barrister; you need a talent for advocacy. If you have those qualities, you aren't really at all likely to have a problem finding somewhere, and - although it might be harder at the start - you are likely to do rather well. And, if you truly want to do court-work, you'll be much happier.

In other words, don't let statistics and myths put you off chosing the career that suits you best.
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