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Healthcare isn't a right. watch

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    Nothing is a right. Food isn't a right - the homeless and hungry exist, and food doesn't suddenly become free. Water isn't a right, by the same logic. Healthcare, therefore, isn't a right.

    I think the point that I'm trying to make is that rights are effectively meaningless, unless they can be guaranteed (which they can't).

    They're all definitely nice-to-haves, though.

    Pretty much this:

    (Original post by TCFactor)
    I am not saying that, nor is CountBrandenburg.
    Let's put it in other terms. An MRI machine is part of healthcare. It costs money. It is not a right, it is a commodity.
    How about apples. An apple is a commodity, it costs money, is bought and sold etc.

    I'm not born with a right to use an MRI machine, just like I am not born with the right to buy an apple.


    Pretty much this, except the fact that anything that costs money and is bought and sold is a commodity, so healthcare isn't a right, it is a commodity, as said before.
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    (Original post by HateOCR)
    So what? How do you think people should get access to healthcare? You seem to mention money a lot so i assume you think health should be paid for?
    Well, to get it out of the way, emergency healthcare will be free. As for the rest of healthcare,
    Well, insurance companies.
    You see, profit drives companies.
    Let's have 3 insurance companies, 1,2 and 3.
    1, says to each customer, pay
    £5000.
    2, says £3000.
    3, says £2000.
    Now, Company 2 will appeal to middle class, 1 to upper classes, and 3 to the Lower Classes.
    They will all get the same treatment in the end, it's just that each company will do something different.
    1 might add some free perks in, that aren't really necessary, but people might want.
    3 might say, oh, we'll pay you if you refer a friend.
    Free Markets will work, just like with all commodities. For example, It could cost a few hundred to make a sandwich, by raising the animal/growing the plant etc. But you can buy one for a few quid in your local shop. Competition leads to greater variety.
    If the insurance companies wanted more profit, they would need to retain customers and so they would need customer satisfaction; good healthcare experiences.
    As sad as it might sound, everything in the world is one way or another driven by profit. All great things have come from desire for profits; cars, technology etc. You can buy a cheap car or an expensive car. They will both go from A to B.
    Just a longer ramble about Healthcare being a commodity.
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    (Original post by TCFactor)
    Well, to get it out of the way, emergency healthcare will be free. As for the rest of healthcare,
    Well, insurance companies.
    You see, profit drives companies.
    Let's have 3 insurance companies, 1,2 and 3.
    1, says to each customer, pay
    £5000.
    2, says £3000.
    3, says £2000.
    Now, Company 2 will appeal to middle class, 1 to upper classes, and 3 to the Lower Classes.
    They will all get the same treatment in the end, it's just that each company will do something different.
    1 might add some free perks in, that aren't really necessary, but people might want.
    3 might say, oh, we'll pay you if you refer a friend.
    Free Markets will work, just like with all commodities. For example, It could cost a few hundred to make a sandwich, by raising the animal/growing the plant etc. But you can buy one for a few quid in your local shop. Competition leads to greater variety.
    If the insurance companies wanted more profit, they would need to retain customers and so they would need customer satisfaction; good healthcare experiences.
    As sad as it might sound, everything in the world is one way or another driven by profit. All great things have come from desire for profits; cars, technology etc. You can buy a cheap car or an expensive car. They will both go from A to B.
    Just a longer ramble about Healthcare being a commodity.
    So what you are suggesting is a healthcare system similar to the US. Don’t you think the extra money provides premium treatments to upper/middle classes? Do you not see how you just created a divide in healthcare based on ability to pay? You are making healthcare appear as a business and as soon as you do that are you really prioritising patient care? Do you see where im coming from, healthcare is supposed to put people before money, yes i agree with your thoughts on emergency medicine but i think it should branch to all specialties and the UK is a living proof that a free healthcare system works.
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    (Original post by HateOCR)
    So what you are suggesting is a healthcare system similar to the NHS. Don’t you think the extra money provides premium treatments to upper/middle classes? Do you not see how you just created a divide in healthcare based on ability to pay? You are making healthcare appear as a business and as soon as you do that are you really prioritising patient care? Do you see where im coming from, healthcare is supposed to put people before money, yes i agree with your thoughts on emergency medicine but i think it should branch to all specialties and the UK is a living proof that a free healthcare system works.
    So, you think the UK healthcare system works?
    Hmm, let's see.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ongest-decade/
    Across the first six months of 2017, an average of 369,007 patients had been waiting longer than 18 weeks to start treatment after being referred by their GP.
    Oh, so the NHS is ignoring the 18 weeks maximum waiting time.
    But, you might just say that is due to mismanagement.
    How about this?
    People get their treatment, and they go home, with a bad experience. The NHS worked. But not well, so it didn't really work.
    Also, https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ountries-study
    NHS is working perfectly.
    No, it is a cash strapped idealistic system that will never work effectively. Just like socialism.
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    (Original post by TCFactor)
    So, you think the UK healthcare system works?
    Hmm, let's see.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ongest-decade/
    Across the first six months of 2017, an average of 369,007 patients had been waiting longer than 18 weeks to start treatment after being referred by their GP.
    Oh, so the NHS is ignoring the 18 weeks maximum waiting time.
    But, you might just say that is due to mismanagement.
    How about this?
    People get their treatment, and they go home, with a bad experience. The NHS worked. But not well, so it didn't really work.
    Also, https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ountries-study
    NHS is working perfectly.
    No, it is a cash strapped idealistic system that will never work effectively. Just like socialism.
    The NHS isn’t sustainable if it gets:
    - cuts in funding
    - lowered staff morale as their working hours increase
    - lack of education of the public
    - increasing demand
    - elderly population spending more time being sick
    - competition with the private health sector
    - an incompetent government (the NHS should be a separate body)

    Can you please at least make a balanced argument. Yes the NHS is not flawless and it is becoming more strained but it has worked for over 50 years serving people based on clinical need. You can’t deny the care and affect the NHS has had on our society.
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    (Original post by TCFactor)
    Well, to get it out of the way, emergency healthcare will be free. As for the rest of healthcare,
    Well, insurance companies.
    That is why the US system is so broken and inhumane.

    If you provide only only emergency care for free, but not preventitive care, you get to pay more when the a condition becomes serious. The suffering that is inflicted by not having free care before conditions are serious, or even life threatening, is inhumane.

    Then there's the whole issue of vacination, which is desirable for all of society.
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    (Original post by TCFactor)
    because taxation is theft.
    It is not.
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    (Original post by RogerOxon)
    That is why the US system is so broken and inhumane.

    If you provide only only emergency care for free, but not preventitive care, you get to pay more when the a condition becomes serious. The suffering that is inflicted by not having free care before conditions are serious, or even life threatening, is inhumane.

    Then there's the whole issue of vacination, which is desirable for all of society.
    The us healthcare system isn't a true free market which is what I'm proposing. Too much government intervention.
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    (Original post by TCFactor)
    Not really. Healthcare is paid for through taxes. We pay for other people's healthcare. We are forced to actually. Money is taken involuntarily from us, to benefit 'everyone'.
    Yes. To enforce the right to healthcare.

    By choose I mean we can decide to vote for a government that implements such a system.

    Yes of course coercion is involved. We are talking about the state here.

    I'm not arguing that the human right to healthcare is built into the universe. I am arguing I support the state taking money off of poeple, especially the rich and capital, to fund a healthcare system that is free at the point of use. Call it stealing if you like. I'm pro the Robin Hood version of stealing :top:
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    JaySoor
    As a fellow libertarian, I hope you share similar views to me and CountBrandenburg.
    If so, plz comment.
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    (Original post by alexschmalex)
    I live in the Netherlands, healthcare here private but it is a legal requirement so nobody goes without cover because it's cheaper to just pay for it than pay the fine for not having any. We have a quarter of your population so paying for it gives us great care, that doesn't mean that it being free in the UK is the problem. Mismanagement is
    Population size is largely irrelevant, Germany and France are similar sizes or slightly larger than the UK and yet have superior systems, all else being equal on a per capita basis population size shouldn't matter, if you have 10x as many people you need 10x the resources but also have 10x the resources.
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    (Original post by HateOCR)
    The NHS isn’t sustainable if it gets:
    - cuts in funding
    - lowered staff morale as their working hours increase
    - lack of education of the public
    - increasing demand
    - elderly population spending more time being sick
    - competition with the private health sector
    - an incompetent government (the NHS should be a separate body)

    Can you please at least make a balanced argument. Yes the NHS is not flawless and it is becoming more strained but it has worked for over 50 years serving people based on clinical need. You can’t deny the care and affect the NHS has had on our society.
    It has worked for 50 years and yet no other country has decided to emulate it, and even when it was at it's prime, when Labour was pumping money into it at an unsustainable rate, it was nowhere near being the envy of the world.

    This country needs to get over the idea that the NHS is near flawless and all it needs is more and more money throwing at it. It needs to stop being treated as sacrilege to say that maybe other systems are better. We need to sit down and have a mature discussion how to solve the problems, especially those who claim to care for the poor because the rich will just go private.
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    We still spend less than the people we want to compare ourselves too as a portion of our gdp.

    There’s no reason not to expect to perform at least as well if we fund it to the same level.

    The moneys gone down and it doesn’t perform as well..... what a shock
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    (Original post by TCFactor)
    Plz discuss. I think it isn't. You aren't inherently born with a right to go and get an MRI scan.
    Lol. I think you should read the Human rights declaration as made by United Nations and read 'Right to Health', it will explain it for you.
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    (Original post by TCFactor)
    Plz don't look at the US, it is a disaster. When it comes to health, it is a horrible mix of government intervention and private healthcare.
    What about Switzerland?
    Private healthcare, compulsory, albeit private. Far better than NHS.
    Netherlands?
    Private, and so much better than UK.
    I'm assuming you are talking about the NHS, when it comes to healthcare. Universal? Maybe.
    But, other people are paying for you to get better, when you may not need it.
    Healthcare isn't a right. It is a commodity.
    Please do not use Switzerland as an example of 'private' healthcare. Switzerland has an obligatory health care system, where premiums are more or less fixed by the Federal Health Agency (BAG, Bundesamt für Gesundheit). Private insurers have very little lee way in raising (or lowering for that matter) them. They try to compete in different areas such as type of service offered. This obligatory part is barely profit making in general. They then offer further care which is essentially private health care. Same way you can have private insurance in the UK beyond NHS. And mind you, the rich doctors in the UK are doctors working for private patients.

    Now, the NHS is an administrative nightmare and that could be fixed, except on the other hand that would also mean a lot of people going jobless. Might want to think about that, too. But in general to say "oh look, nationalized healthcare sucks cuz muh look at my two examples of countries with 'private' healthcare". Well I can point to the US for an example of private healthcare that is absolutely horrendous.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Please do not use Switzerland as an example of 'private' healthcare. Switzerland has an obligatory health care system, where premiums are more or less fixed by the Federal Health Agency (BAG, Bundesamt für Gesundheit). Private insurers have very little lee way in raising (or lowering for that matter) them. They try to compete in different areas such as type of service offered. This obligatory part is barely profit making in general. They then offer further care which is essentially private health care. Same way you can have private insurance in the UK beyond NHS. And mind you, the rich doctors in the UK are doctors working for private patients.

    Now, the NHS is an administrative nightmare and that could be fixed, except on the other hand that would also mean a lot of people going jobless. Might want to think about that, too. But in general to say "oh look, nationalized healthcare sucks cuz muh look at my two examples of countries with 'private' healthcare". Well I can point to the US for an example of private healthcare that is absolutely horrendous.
    I propose to put healthcare in the free market. America is not a free market and nor is switzerland. Healthcare is a commodity and should be treated as such in a free market.
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    (Original post by TCFactor)
    x
    The cynic in me reckons you have been bought into the whole privatisation/free market/commodity spiel without actually knowing a sufficient amount about it - at least, it is an impression felt from your responses here.
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    (Original post by TCFactor)
    I propose to put healthcare in the free market. America is not a free market and nor is switzerland. Healthcare is a commodity and should be treated as such in a free market.
    1. 'Free' markets don't exist.
    2. Read Kenneth J. Arrow, Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care, American Economic Review, 1963 or Amy Finkelstein, Moral Hazard in Health Insurance.

    Also if you use the word commodity in an economic setting as you did by talking about free markets, it means a raw material or agricultural product. If anything, healthcare would be a service.
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    Healthcare isn't a right, it's a commodity. Just beacuse something is vital and you can't live without it doesn't make you entilited to it. Bread isn't a right it's a commodity
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    (Original post by TCFactor)
    Plz discuss. I think it isn't. You aren't inherently born with a right to go and get an MRI scan.
    While your right to say that healthcare is not a human right, it is however a British right (access to healthcare). Government has a moral obligation to at least prevent the death of its citizens and thus ensuring that the populous has access to healthcare achieves this.

    Now the model of this access and the extent are both debatable but i certainly believe that all people born in the UK should have access to healthcare (i quite like the choice that the german system grants).

    (Original post by TCFactor)
    I am not saying that, nor is CountBrandenburg.
    Let's put it in other terms. An MRI machine is part of healthcare. It costs money. It is not a right, it is a commodity.
    How about apples. An apple is a commodity, it costs money, is bought and sold etc.

    I'm not born with a right to use an MRI machine, just like I am not born with the right to buy an apple.

    Pretty much this, except the fact that anything that costs money and is bought and sold is a commodity, so healthcare isn't a right, it is a commodity, as said before.
    The fact that something can be deemed a commodity is largely independent of whether you have a right to access it (most of Europe has private healthcare but government mandates that you must choose to purchase insurance) just as while you may not have a right to eat apples, you do in the UK have the right not to starve (whether the state provides apples, oranges or lets you choose is besides the point), especially so in the modern world where we don't live in a completely nationalised, completely privatised dichotomy.

    (Original post by TCFactor)
    Not really. Healthcare is paid for through taxes. We pay for other people's healthcare. We are forced to actually. Money is taken involuntarily from us, to benefit 'everyone'. That is a definition for both taxation and socialism. Anyway, If you use that sentence, it sounds like it is theft, because taxation is theft. Saying that you WILL do something if YOU want to, that violates someone else's rights isn't right, agreed? You are violating our rights by stealing money, thus, by regression, healthcare isn't a right, rather 'free healthcare' is a violation of our rights, rather than a right in itself.
    A classic libertarian argument.. which completely ignores the fact that if you voted at the last election you voted for taxation and that if you choose not to emigrate to Luxembourg et al.. then you are choosing to pay taxation.
 
 
 
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