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    (Original post by Golden State)
    It is more important to belief in something than nothing at all, especially since religion has a big influence on shaping civilization and unlike Atheism has a system of ethics and morality. I
    Please explain how humanism has no ethics or morality.
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    (Original post by Ninja Squirrel)
    I was agnostic for many years until I embraced Islam and it's answered a lot of questions I had about the meaning of life and the universe, couldn't be happier.
    I hope you like islamaphobic TSR pile ons
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Please explain how humanism has no ethics or morality.
    Because there is no universal standard of morality, and humanism borrows from the Judeo-Christian foundation. Humanism was greatly shaped by the enlightenment movement of the 1700s. Humanism has no moral exemplars, like Buddha, or Jesus Christ. Additionally, it promotes excessive individualism, which is not good for the greater good of society.
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    (Original post by Golden State)
    Humanism has no moral exemplars, like Buddha, or Jesus Christ. Additionally, it promotes excessive individualism, which is not good for the greater good of society.
    HUmanists repsonse to that is that the morality found in religion, such as do to others as you would liek done to you, is based on social relations that are a product of evolutionary biolgy in shaping the behaviour of humans. Obviously these aspects find themselves expressed in religions such as christrianity. The Golden Rule is not unique to christianity, in fact it surives pretty much in tact as scoietry moves away from organised christianity.

    Humanism gets wound up in world views like socialism which are based on collectavism. There is certainly an element of humanism that is based on respecting the individual though and thier rights. Often as a moral response against what humanism seess as the moral failure of religion to respect individual choice to not submit totally to a doctrine of life. Individualist morality is still a form or morality.

    There is loads of moral philosophy that deals with morality in a godless context. To say that all athiest thinking involves no morals is beyond stupid. Like they are all nihilists that think you can do whatever the **** you want.
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    (Original post by Ninja Squirrel)
    I was agnostic for many years until I embraced Islam and it's answered a lot of questions I had about the meaning of life and the universe, couldn't be happier.
    I'm glad you found peace in Islam. I found a real sense of purpose in Christianity and couldn't be happier. Such is the beauty of religion.
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    (Original post by Axiomasher)
    You're promoting religious belief on the grounds of fear and self-serving calculation, your God must be so proud of you.
    I'm not promoting anything. I'm just saying that according to Pascal's Wager it's more rational to believe in a creator than to disbelieve in a creator as you have a greater chance for an infinite gain. Even if you belief in the wrong conception of God you still have a greater chance for an infinite gain than if you choose to disbelieve in the existence of a creator, whatever that may be.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Wow. You have just solved moral philiosphy in one fell swoop. Congradulations.

    Humanism gets wound up in world views like socialism which are based on collectavism. There is certainly an element of humanism that is based on respecting the individual though and thier rights. Often as a moral response against what humanism seems as the moral failure of religion to respect individuality. Individualist morality is still a form or morality.

    There is loads of moral philosophy that deals with morality in a godless context. To say that all athiest thinking involves no morals is beyond stupid. Like they are all nihilists that think you can do whatever the **** you want.
    Yes, but Atheists don't have any moral exemplars who set a moral standard, like Buddha or Jesus Christ. So, in Atheism it's anything goes really. What's considered immoral now, may be considered morally acceptable as according to Atheists morality is subjective, and merely down to the will of the people.

    I honestly believe that people will do absolutely anything immoral if they can get away with it. Thus, religion provides them with restraints.

    Atheism does in fact lead to nihilism because in Atheism there is no God and there is no purpose to life. So, everything is just a matter of action and inaction, and down to the individual's own subjective desires.

    At a state level this would lead to anarchy and the breakdown of civilization. People need a purpose in life to incentivise them and guide their behaviours. Religion provides people with a purpose and incentivises them towards collectivist goals that lead to the greater good of society.

    Atheism can exist alongside religion, and Atheists should be respected and be able to exercise their individual liberty. However, we should also value the importance of religion as well. In this sense, religion or the existence of a God need not be true for it to still serve a purpose in society.
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    (Original post by Golden State)
    Yes, but Atheists don't have any moral exemplars who set a moral standard, like Buddha or Jesus Christ.
    Yes they do.

    Bertrand Russel. Peter Singer. Noam Chomsky. Then there are also all the flipping enlightenment atheists. All have talked about morality and are all atheists and have influenced my moral outlook. Bertrand Russel's views on love and sexual relationships I find much more moral than conservative christian views on the topic. I also haven;t ignored relgiouse figures, Buddism influences my moral outlook for example and I could find things with Jesus I agree with. Liberation Theology is another one.

    The appeal of having a fixed moral doctrine deosn't appeal to me. That is one of the problamtic featuies of beleif systems which inlcude religion. I don;t actually think religion is fundamentally like that as the New Atheists like to say but it definitly has a strong rpesence. I find that repellant.
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    (Original post by Robby2312)
    Atheists have morality.It comes from millions of years of evolution.All the great apes are social animals and will work together if they need to.The idea that we would all descend into anarchy without religion is baseless.Scandanavia is one of the least religious countries on earth and they don't seem to have succumbed to anarchy yet.In fact it's one of the best places to live.Compare with places that are extremely religious like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan,.Not exactly great places.

    It's Christian morality that is largely responsible for child abuse in the Catholic church.If they allowed priests to marry and fulfil a basic human need a lot less child abuse would have gone on.And that stems directly from Catholic teaching.What about how Christians worsened the Aids crisis by teaching that condoms are sinful.Or how about the thousands of gay people driven to suicide by Christian teaching? Don't talk to me about Christian morality.Its not a thing.

    As for Pascal wager you still have infinite loss if you choose the wrong God because most God's don't like you worshipping other God's.Not to mention wasting the one life you actually have on something false.
    Atheists do not have any independent morality. Their morality is based on the religious and cultural environment in which they grow up in. That’s why the moral beliefs of Atheists in India, Indonesia and the United Kingdom are going to be completely different as they are shaped by three distinct religion and cultures.

    Scandinavia is not that great, and certainly not somewhere that I would want to live, particularly with all the recent crime wave there. Scandinavia’s success is down to three things: It’s Judeo-Christian foundation, small population size, and abundance of natural resources.

    The Islamic countries that you mentioned are not places that you would particularly want to live in. But, that’s because Islam has it’s own independent morality, and so in these countries the religion has too much dominance over the state and has not evolved. Yes, unfortunately people can still do evil things in the name of religion. But, they can also do evil things without religion too. Just because there are problems within religion it doesn’t mean that we should discard religion all together. We should instead evolve in our behaviours and try to eliminate the injustices carried out, and justified in the name of religion.

    Blaise Pascal already addressed that problem. We know that Zeus, Odin and the Easter Bunny are not real. There is no infinite loss to be had if you believe in a creator. I don’t believe in Allah, because I have studied the history of Islam. There can only be four possibilities, from which I have derived that belief in a creator still gives me a higher chance of an infinite gain.

    It’s better to take an exam and get a C, than to not try at all and end up with an F. And it’s not a waste of time at all, because it’s better to spend you’re life doing something that is meaningful to you, than to not try at all. So, in this sense being a Christian is a positive net gain in my life.
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    (Original post by Golden State)
    Atheists do not have any independent morality. Their morality is based on the religious and cultural environment in which they grow up in. That’s why the moral beliefs of Atheists in India, Indonesia and the United Kingdom are going to be completely different as they are shaped by three distinct religion and cultures.

    Scandinavia is not that great, and certainly not somewhere that I would want to live, particularly with all the recent crime wave there. Scandinavia’s success is down to three things: It’s Judeo-Christian foundation, small population size, and abundance of natural resources.

    The Islamic countries that you mentioned are not places that you would particularly want to live in. But, that’s because Islam has it’s own independent morality, and so in these countries the religion has too much dominance over the state and has not evolved. Yes, unfortunately people can still do evil things in the name of religion. But, they can also do evil things without religion too. Just because there are problems within religion it doesn’t mean that we should discard religion all together. We should instead evolve in our behaviours and try to eliminate the injustices carried out, and justified in the name of religion.

    Blaise Pascal already addressed that problem. We know that Zeus, Odin and the Easter Bunny are not real. There is no infinite loss to be had if you believe in a creator. I don’t believe in Allah, because I have studied the history of Islam. There can only be four possibilities, from which I have derived that belief in a creator still gives me a higher chance of an infinite gain.

    It’s better to take an exam and get a C, than to not try at all and end up with an F. And it’s not a waste of time at all, because it’s better to spend you’re life doing something that is meaningful to you, than to not try at all. So, in this sense being a Christian is a positive net gain in my life.
    I'll grant you that the easter bunny is not real but how do we know that Zeus or Odin aren't? From where I'm standing they look just about as likely to exist as Yahweh.They all have just as much evidence for their existence.Indeed the depiction of god in most christian paintings is actually based upon the roman god Jupiter.The difference between the christian god and zeus is that the christian God is the current thing that people believe in.However 2000 years ago people believed in the greek gods just as fervently as you believe in yours.

    Atheists don't need religion to give them morality.Its quite an instinctive thing that killing another human is bad.You don't need religion or a thousand year old book to tell you that.And if you do then you're not actually that moral.If the only thing stopping you killing someone is because you believe some deity told you not to then you are not a good person.And actually if you actually read the bible our morality isn't really based upon it at all.St Paul for example is perfectly ok with keeping slaves.He tells slaves to obey their masters in the new Testement.But you completely ignore that.Going by biblical morality you should be perfectly ok with slavery.After all St Paul was chosen by Jesus.If he says its ok then it must be.
    Yet presumably you're not ok with it.Why?

    Its that little thing called a conscience.
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    (Original post by Golden State)
    I'm not promoting anything. I'm just saying that according to Pascal's Wager it's more rational to believe in a creator than to disbelieve in a creator as you have a greater chance for an infinite gain. Even if you belief in the wrong conception of God you still have a greater chance for an infinite gain than if you choose to disbelieve in the existence of a creator, whatever that may be.
    As in my earlier reply you cannot choose to believe in anything, you have to find the lack of evidence compelling. Any God worth the title would be able to see if you do believe or not so it would be pointless to even pretend you believe.
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    (Original post by Ninja Squirrel)
    I was agnostic for many years until I embraced Islam and it's answered a lot of questions I had about the meaning of life and the universe, couldn't be happier.
    What questions about "the meaning of life" did it answer, and what were those answers?
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    (Original post by Golden State)
    I'm glad you found peace in Islam. I found a real sense of purpose in Christianity and couldn't be happier. Such is the beauty of religion.
    But for one of you, your sense of peace, happiness and purpose is false and will result in an eternity of unbearable torture.
    I wonder which one it is?
    And is each of you comfortable with the other's fate?
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    (Original post by Golden State)
    Yes, but Atheists don't have any moral exemplars who set a moral standard, like Buddha or Jesus Christ. So, in Atheism it's anything goes really. What's considered immoral now, may be considered morally acceptable as according to Atheists morality is subjective, and merely down to the will of the people.
    For the millionth time, atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. That is all.
    It is not a belief system or a moral code or even a lifestyle guide.
    An atheist can hold any moral or philosophical position as long as it doesn't involve the existence of gods.

    Seriously, how hard is this to understand?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    But for one of you, your sense of peace, happiness and purpose is false and will result in an eternity of unbearable torture.
    I wonder which one it is?
    And is each of you comfortable with the other's fate?
    I personally don't believe in Islam. But, if it gives someone a sense of purpose in life then I don't see anything wrong with it.

    I actually don't believe in eternal torture. I think religions should evolve with the times.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    For the millionth time, atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. That is all.
    It is not a belief system or a moral code or even a lifestyle guide.
    An atheist can hold any moral or philosophical position as long as it doesn't involve the existence of gods.

    Seriously, how hard is this to understand?
    Yeah, I know that's what I was trying to say. In Atheism it's anything goes really as there is no objective moral code like in Buddhism or Christianity for example, which are based on the teachings of Buddha and Jesus Christ. Also, because Atheism is just a lack of belief in God(s) it doesn't have the same purpose as religion, which brings people together, and has good moral teachings that you can incorporate into your life. So, in this sense my religion has been a positive net contribution to my life as I put Jesus at the centre of everything that I do.
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    (Original post by Golden State)
    I personally don't believe in Islam. But, if it gives someone a sense of purpose in life then I don't see anything wrong with it.
    That wasn't what I asked.

    I actually don't believe in eternal torture.
    What you believe or don't believe is irrelevant. If Christianity as described in the Bible is true, then your god will subject NinjaSquirrel to an eternity of torture. How do you feel about that?

    I think religions should evolve with the times.
    Me too. However, that somewhat makes a mockery of the idea of divine revelation.

    It also means that your "objective morals" are actually "socially evolved morals" - which is what an atheists morals are. So you argument about morality fails.
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    (Original post by Golden State)
    In Atheism it's anything goes really as there is no objective moral code like in Buddhism or Christianity for example, which are based on the teachings of Buddha and Jesus Christ.
    As you have just admitted that morality evolves socially, you cannot also claim divinely revealed objective morality.
    • TSR Support Team
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    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by QE2)
    What questions about "the meaning of life" did it answer, and what were those answers?
    Our purpose, why we're here, what the end goal is etc, I'm not going to go into detail about it here though.

    (Original post by QE2)
    But for one of you, your sense of peace, happiness and purpose is false and will result in an eternity of unbearable torture.
    I wonder which one it is?
    And is each of you comfortable with the other's fate?
    By the way when you tag me don't forget to include the space otherwise it tags someone else

    Obviously I would prefer Golden State to believe in Islam as that is what I feel is correct but each to their own and as long as he is happy and gets meaning and purpose from Christianity then I say to his religion him and to my religion me
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    Interesting little thread to look through.
    Seems a few people have gone on the journey of monotheism > atheism > deism/general belief in a god.

    I shouldn't think there are many people who ever find their way back Christianity, Judaism or Islam once they've crossed the bridge into atheism though - once you've really begun to think in those terms and view the world through that kind of lens, I just don't think a person would find the lack of explanation that faith offers satisfying anymore.
 
 
 

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