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Labour discussing plans to include trans women on women only shortlists watch

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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    That’s not what this quote is saying, it’s saying that it’s much more easy to get into politics as a white man than it is for a transgender woman. So people implying men will self identify as a woman to get some kind of extra help in achieving their career goals is counter productive.
    Well, of course it is. There are a lot of white men in this country, and hardly any transgender women.

    I can very much see the scenario you're ridiculing happening. Not necessarily in politics, but generally. If the values that are being advanced by the alt-left become normalised, then rational people will make rational choices.

    If it is possible to self-identify as a woman (without a GRC as is being proposed) then it truly means that gender would be entirely self-defining and changeable at any time. There would be no downside to claiming whatever gender you wish at any time for convenience.
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    (Original post by Andrew97)
    I disagree that it is rigged on favour of white men. I personally think (im happy to be proved wrong) that in some cases white men are held to a higher standard than other demographics. If a white man had said the kind of things that Diane Abbot and Emma Dent Coad have said, they would be fired.


    Just for balance. George Osbourne should have lost his editor job over his Theresa May freezer comments
    .
    I wouldn’t say rigged, but politics is still a very white male world. People would be much more likely to vote for a white man than a transgender woman.

    I agree there are some areas that men are held to a higher standard, like with the sexual harassment claims atm. Some are very justified, but it must be an unnerving time to be a man in a position of power right now, even if they are innocent. Once claim can ruin a career, family, life.

    However in high up positions, the large amount of white men is very high. That’s not to say they aren’t good at their jobs and didn’t earn it, but it’s a question of why there aren’t woman who are as qualified or as experienced, as they are certainly as capable.
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    (Original post by the beer)
    Why shouldn't we normalise mental illness?
    Because it isn't normal.
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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    I wouldn’t say rigged, but politics is still a very white male world. People would be much more likely to vote for a white man than a transgender woman.

    I agree there are some areas that men are held to a higher standard, like with the sexual harassment claims atm. Some are very justified, but it must be an unnerving time to be a man in a position of power right now, even if they are innocent. Once claim can ruin a career, family, life.

    However in high up positions, the large amount of white men is very high. That’s not to say they aren’t good at their jobs and didn’t earn it, but it’s a question of why there aren’t woman who are as qualified or as experienced, as they are certainly as capable.
    What’s your detention of high up positions in this debate may I ask? Business (in which case you have a point) or politics, because in politics all major parities apart from Labour in the U.K either have a female leader or a female deputy leader.
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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    However in high up positions, the large amount of white men is very high. That’s not to say they aren’t good at their jobs and didn’t earn it, but it’s a question of why there aren’t woman who are as qualified or as experienced, as they are certainly as capable.
    Like the two female Prime Ministers and 3 of the 4 Home Secretaries in the last 10 years?

    As for being "white". The vast majority of the country is white. The vast majority of people participating in politics are white. It stands to reason that the majority of people in the higher echelons of politics will be white.
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    (Original post by Andrew97)
    What’s your detention of high up positions in this debate may I ask? Business (in which case you have a point) or politics, because in politics all major parities apart from Labour in the U.K either have a female leader or a female deputy leader.
    I was meaning high up positions in companies (business), but politics have definitely stepped up the equality game. House of commons is still a sausage fest though!
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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    I was meaning high up positions in companies (business), but politics have definitely stepped up the equality game. House of commons is still a sausage fest though!
    I am inclined to agree with you this seems male heavy. However, I think more research needs to be done. So who applied for the role, and things like that?

    There is also a case (albiet a shaky one) that men tend to take more risks than women, and thus are possibly more likely to attempt to start up a company. I know this is a long shot.
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    If they were women i might be inclined to agree. Alas a man in drag does not a women make so why should one be allowed on the female shortlist?
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    Like the two female Prime Ministers and 3 of the 4 Home Secretaries in the last 10 years?

    As for being "white". The vast majority of the country is white. The vast majority of people participating in politics are white. It stands to reason that the majority of people in the higher echelons of politics will be white.
    I’m aware of all of those things you’ve stated but thanks for the lesson. Of the 75 prime ministers we’ve had, 2 have been female. Things are improving, doesn’t mean it’s all equal now we’ve had a few woman be successful.
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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    I’m aware of all of those things you’ve stated but thanks for the lesson. Of the 75 prime ministers we’ve had, 2 have been female. Things are improving, doesn’t mean it’s all equal now we’ve had a few woman be successful.
    How is it not equal now?
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    (Original post by Andrew97)
    I am inclined to agree with you this seems male heavy. However, I think more research needs to be done. So who applied for the role, and things like that?

    There is also a case (albiet a shaky one) that men tend to take more risks than women, and thus are possibly more likely to attempt to start up a company. I know this is a long shot.
    Honestly I think it starts as far back as boys being encouraged more to be academic and girls to follow more creative paths. Attitudes are definitely changing, but at every turn people take on their path to a career it’s second guessing yourself as a woman. I think a lot of that stems from the small number of woman who have done it before. How many girls parents told them that politics is a mans game, and she gave up the dream before trying?

    Men would be less likely to be confident in a field that’s dominated by woman (though that’s just an assumption). Finding out how you flow in a system that already has the whole thing sussed is scary, even if you’re a confident and capable person.

    TL;DR it’s not as surface level as job interviews or promotion, but the seeds of doubt that have been planted in girls who feel like they aren’t good enough to play the boys game, so they give up before trying.
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    Eddie Izzard? You must be kidding me.
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    Funny idea but how about we keep Women only shortlists for you know... actual women.
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    (Original post by Napp)
    If they were women i might be inclined to agree. Alas a man in drag does not a women make so why should one be allowed on the female shortlist?
    I think the actual question is so much deeper.

    Consider the idea that this is essentially embracing the idea of complete gender fluidity. Jeremy Corbyn has been very clear on this - he says he is entirely supportive of self-identifying gender without a GRC.

    If this is the case, then anyone who says they are a woman - is a woman. In Corbyn's own words "The position of the party is that where you have self-identified as a woman, then you are treated as a woman.”

    This surely makes the whole point of an all-female shortlist utterly redundant. If anyone can get on it - it's just a shortlist.

    I'd also add that the Labour member who was most voiciferously against this, the radical feminist Jennifer James - was slung out the party for her opposition to this.

    (Original post by Trinculo)
    So - a party led by a man; suspends a woman who supports women; for being opposed to men who say they're women getting on to a list that is only for women.
    That's Labour Momentum for you.
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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    I was meaning high up positions in companies (business), but politics have definitely stepped up the equality game. House of commons is still a sausage fest though!
    and? just because something is not 50/50 or close it does not meant that something is wrong, women have the option they just need to run and be electable
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    and? just because something is not 50/50 or close it does not meant that something is wrong, women have the option they just need to run and be electable
    I’m just going to tag you in a previous post because I feel like it answers this and I cba to type it all out again
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    (Original post by cat_mac)
    Honestly I think it starts as far back as boys being encouraged more to be academic and girls to follow more creative paths. Attitudes are definitely changing, but at every turn people take on their path to a career it’s second guessing yourself as a woman. I think a lot of that stems from the small number of woman who have done it before. How many girls parents told them that politics is a mans game, and she gave up the dream before trying?

    Men would be less likely to be confident in a field that’s dominated by woman (though that’s just an assumption). Finding out how you flow in a system that already has the whole thing sussed is scary, even if you’re a confident and capable person.

    TL;DR it’s not as surface level as job interviews or promotion, but the seeds of doubt that have been planted in girls who feel like they aren’t good enough to play the boys game, so they give up before trying.
    (AperfectBalance ^)
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    I find it much more likely that people will look back on this short period of time and think of us as utter morons for the social ideas we let take hold.
    Time will tell.

    If we do look back unfavourably it will be because we slided back into Fascism -___-


    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    Funny idea but how about we keep Women only shortlists for you know... actual women.
    As if you support women shortlists :rofl:


    You don;t even like Labour. Why are we gonna listen to you when managing our internal affairs?
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    why is this even in place? considering MPs are put in place by vote of constituency it doesn't matter what the gender of the MP is as long as the people of the constituency feel as though the MP represents them(or at least the majority). there shouldn't be a shortlist of any kind. democracy and politics isn't about diversity it's about who best represents the people. People vote for MPs based on the MP's beliefs and ideals not based on their race or gender.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Time will tell.

    If we do look back unfavourably it will be because we slided back into Fascism -___-
    Arguably the whole move toward this kind of statist direction of people's opinion - telling them what they must or must not understand as a fact is fascism.

    Telling people they must not treat people unfairly because of their gender or sexual orientation is one thing. However, telling people with the force of law what they must understand as gender is fascist in the extreme.
 
 
 
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