Turn on thread page Beta

Lack of migrant workers left food rotting in UK fields last year, data reveals watch

    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ByEeek)
    I think we need to accept that there are many processes that robots just can not do. I find it fascinating watching How its Made or Inside the Factor where you have some of the most advanced production lines in the world, but it is still a person who takes them of the conveyor belt and puts them in a box / palette / truck.

    The irony is that it is going to be white collar workers that suffer the scourge of automation whilst low paid workers will be generally unaffected. You can't make a robot clean a hotel room for example, but you can replace the hotel manager to an extent.
    You'd be surprised at what automation can do these days, but the capital costs are high. I read an interesting article recently which said that Brexit may actually make our economy more like that of France or Germany - in both countries the cost of hiring (and especially firing) is comparatively high, and so levels of automation are higher, leading to higher productivity but with the penalty of fewer jobs. The situation in the UK at present is that it's relatively easy and cheap to hire low skilled workers, so there is less incentive to invest large amounts of capital in automation. If and when labour becomes harder to hire there will be an increase in automation.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by CurlyBen)
    You'd be surprised at what automation can do these days, but the capital costs are high. I read an interesting article recently which said that Brexit may actually make our economy more like that of France or Germany - in both countries the cost of hiring (and especially firing) is comparatively high, and so levels of automation are higher, leading to higher productivity but with the penalty of fewer jobs. The situation in the UK at present is that it's relatively easy and cheap to hire low skilled workers, so there is less incentive to invest large amounts of capital in automation. If and when labour becomes harder to hire there will be an increase in automation.
    True. But it is regulation that causes the costs of hiring to be high. In the UK we are very much of the American, low regulation model. I would imagine that if demand outstrips supply, the government will simply cave in and allow more immigrants to come, just as they have done for the last 20 years. Except they are more likely to be non-EU migrants. Just what the Brexiteers want eh?
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ByEeek)
    True. But it is regulation that causes the costs of hiring to be high. In the UK we are very much of the American, low regulation model. I would imagine that if demand outstrips supply, the government will simply cave in and allow more immigrants to come, just as they have done for the last 20 years. Except they are more likely to be non-EU migrants. Just what the Brexiteers want eh?
    It is indeed regulation that causes hiring to be more expensive, but if a shortage of labour causes labour costs to increase (basic supply and demand) then that effectively leads to the same situation and increases the incentive to automate.

    This is the article I mentioned in my previous post - most of it is hidden behind a paywall, but in the first paragraph is an example of a manufacturer in England who has already started to automate instead of relying on cheap Eastern European labour.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Also in the article were some British farmers were moving production overseas some to China so better get those trade talks underway so we can import strawberries that we used to grow in this country before Brexit.

    I expect a lot of producers that are making stuff in Britain will look at the difficulties hiring workers after Brexit and decide its more profitable to move production to cheaper countries and import the products from all those countries like India we will have trade deals with.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Maker)
    Also in the article were some British farmers were moving production overseas some to China so better get those trade talks underway so we can import strawberries that we used to grow in this country before Brexit.
    Not in the article I posted???

    I expect a lot of producers that are making stuff in Britain will look at the difficulties hiring workers after Brexit and decide its more profitable to move production to cheaper countries and import the products from all those countries like India we will have trade deals with.
    You're presumably aware that this was happening well before Brexit? Twinings even used a £10 million EU grant to effectively move a factory from England to Poland (which was an abuse of the grant and lead to the grant being denied, but the jobs in the UK had already been lost). I know Cadbury's moved a factory from Bristol to Poland as well, despite promising they wouldn't. I'm not strongly pro- or anti-Brexit, but some on the remain side are just as delusional as some on the leave side.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Exclusive: Brexit fears and falling pound left fruit and vegetable farms short of more than 4,000 workers, with senior MPs warning of a ‘crisis’

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...r-data-reveals

    :lol:

    Come on Leave voters. This is what you have been waiting for. Time to get up and take these jobs. British jobs for british people.

    Where are all the fat middle aged gammons volenteering to do these jobs?

    I shant be doing these jobs as I don;t want to be getting up at 4am to pic fruit for some farmer. But then again, I didn't vote Leave and I am not against immigration. I don't see why it is up to me to fill the gap made by blokes who think they fought in the war :beard:

    I propose a third solution. Lets automate these processes. Come on farmers. It seems you can no longer rely on exploiting eastern europeans to make your profit. Lets see some of this capitalist inovation I hear so much about.


    They need to start paying a decent wage if they want british people to get up at 4am and go pick fruit

    if fruit are left in the fields it's because greedy employers can't find enough desperate migrants to work for a pittance

    raise the wages and british people will come.....
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    I don't oppose EU immigration for the most part however your assumption is a bit wrong given that many nations manage to farm their food.

    This is a short term reflection of lazy farmers depending too much on one source of labour.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by CurlyBen)
    Not in the article I posted???



    You're presumably aware that this was happening well before Brexit? Twinings even used a £10 million EU grant to effectively move a factory from England to Poland (which was an abuse of the grant and lead to the grant being denied, but the jobs in the UK had already been lost). I know Cadbury's moved a factory from Bristol to Poland as well, despite promising they wouldn't. I'm not strongly pro- or anti-Brexit, but some on the remain side are just as delusional as some on the leave side.
    Brexit will make a lot of companies assess whether they should stay in the UK or move else where, not necessarily to the EU but to other countries where Britain needs a good trade deal like China.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ANM775)
    They need to start paying a decent wage if they want british people to get up at 4am and go pick fruit

    if fruit are left in the fields it's because greedy employers can't find enough desperate migrants to work for a pittance

    raise the wages and british people will come.....
    Farmers will just move production to a different country where they can make more money. They are already doing it.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by CurlyBen)
    It is indeed regulation that causes hiring to be more expensive, but if a shortage of labour causes labour costs to increase (basic supply and demand) then that effectively leads to the same situation and increases the incentive to automate.
    Agreed. Except that isn't happening. Wages in sectors that have shortages of candidates are not indicative of that shortfall. By contrast, France has a culture of invest and automation despite strong labour laws. I think the UK has a cultural problem when it comes to investment more than anything.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)

    As for getting people to do it, there is a simple solution and that is to take away benefits from those unwilling to work,
    I am afraid that makes the assumption that there are people on benefits to take off them.

    Take Boston, a deeply Brexit voting local authority in the food producing heartlands in Lincolnshire.

    In December 2017 there were 605 JSA/UC claimants. The most there had been at any point in 2017 was 680. There have not been 700 claimants since April 2015.

    The is a huge range of fitness between eligible for sickness/disability benefits and able to stand out in a field for 10-12 hours a day. How many of that 605 are physically able to do the work?

    Unemployed parents are required to claim ESA when their youngest child is five. 220 of those claimants are female. How many of those 605 could realistically be expected to start work at 6AM or earlier?

    In practical terms, Boston has full employment. The same is true for most of the main vegetable and fruit producing areas of the UK.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    British farmer moves fruit-growing to China over Brexit uncertainty

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-uncertainty

    I'm not sure this is going to help the working class leave vote. Or that they voted leave with the intention of moving more jobs to China.
    Offline

    7
    ReputationRep:
    thing is, most people coudn't give a rats about fruit picking on a farm - it's hardly a skill to aspire to , a temp hollday job perhaps , so is really a moot point in the bigger scheme of brexit
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    British farmer moves fruit-growing to China over Brexit uncertainty

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-uncertainty

    I'm not sure this is going to help the working class leave vote. Or that they voted leave with the intention of moving more jobs to China.


    With a turnover exceeding 100 million that british farmer is almost certainly a rich multi millionaire

    he can afford to pay people a decent wage, he just doesn't want to because he'll get a few less million

    it's GREED making him relocate

    what did farmers do before were had tons of immigrants here?

    they paid british folk to man the fields.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ANM775)
    With a turnover exceeding 100 million that british farmer is almost certainly a rich multi millionaire

    he can afford to pay people a decent wage, he just doesn't want to because he'll get a few less million

    it's GREED making him relocate

    what did farmers do before were had tons of immigrants here?

    they paid british folk to man the fields.
    It's almost like capatalism is the reason poeple are paid peanuts as apposed to migrant labour...
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Exclusive: Brexit fears and falling pound left fruit and vegetable farms short of more than 4,000 workers, with senior MPs warning of a ‘crisis’

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...r-data-reveals

    :lol:

    Come on Leave voters. This is what you have been waiting for. Time to get up and take these jobs. British jobs for british people.

    Where are all the fat middle aged gammons volenteering to do these jobs?

    I shant be doing these jobs as I don;t want to be getting up at 4am to pic fruit for some farmer. But then again, I didn't vote Leave and I am not against immigration. I don't see why it is up to me to fill the gap made by blokes who think they fought in the war :beard:

    I propose a third solution. Lets automate these processes. Come on farmers. It seems you can no longer rely on exploiting eastern europeans to make your profit. Lets see some of this capitalist inovation I hear so much about.
    The farmers that are ‘exploiting’ low wage Easy European workers could simply offer a competitive wage for pickers.

    The title of this article should read, farmers let food rot rather than pay someone a decent wage to pick it. Also, if leaving the EU is something you don’t want, why stay here?

    The EU is still there, you have a long family ancestry here in the UK? Some financial interest that requires you stay?

    My guess is no, I’d be willing to bet you are the child of immigrants that is openly sneering at the indigenous populations desire for autonomy like some sort of elitist colonialist. Tell me if I’m wrong. And tell me why you aren’t leaving for the EU, or even, your home continent.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 72nalyomluap)
    The farmers that are ‘exploiting’ low wage Easy European workers could simply offer a competitive wage for pickers.

    The title of this article should read, farmers let food rot rather than pay someone a decent wage to pick it.
    Except that the margins in agriculture are squeezed so much by the supermarkets that they can't. Even if the supermarkets increased what they paid that cost would be passed on to the consumer, who'd then buy the product produced more cheaply overseas. Generally, people are more than happy with the idea of workers being paid more but baulk at the idea of actually paying more themselves.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 72nalyomluap)

    The EU is still there, you have a long family ancestry here in the UK? Some financial interest that requires you stay?

    My guess is no, I’d be willing to bet you are the child of immigrants that is openly sneering at the indigenous populations desire for autonomy like some sort of elitist colonialist. Tell me if I’m wrong. And tell me why you aren’t leaving for the EU, or even, your home continent.
    Well my great grandmother was an illegal Irish immigrant, other than that though my acestors were all born in England as far as I know. I'm commited to english socialism :france:

    also lol I'm not going somewhere else. This is where me and my family live and I will continue to be a pain in the butt for my country.
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by CurlyBen)
    Except that the margins in agriculture are squeezed so much by the supermarkets that they can't. Even if the supermarkets increased what they paid that cost would be passed on to the consumer, who'd then buy the product produced more cheaply overseas. Generally, people are more than happy with the idea of workers being paid more but baulk at the idea of actually paying more themselves.
    This is where captalism shines, the competitive nature of the financial model spurs inventiveness and drives down prices.

    Pretty sure we survived without a migrant workforce before and can do so again.

    While I don’t know the specifics, people always seem more than willing to pay a premium for good locally sourced food over imported cheap stuff in my experience. Maybe we tax the imported EU [email protected] to subsidise our farmers lol.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by 72nalyomluap)
    This is where captalism shines, the competitive nature of the financial model spurs inventiveness and drives down prices.
    The opposite is happening. The weak bargaining power of labour is allowing capitalists to get away without having to innova the means of production. Instead of making more productive machines they are just fidning novel ways of paying poeple less.

    This isn't exactly capitalism doing what it cheer leaders say it does.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: February 14, 2018
Poll
How are you feeling in the run-up to Results Day 2018?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.