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Reports of a shooting in a Florida school watch

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    Extremely sad news. In the UK, we're lucky to be living in this great country where we do not have to live in fear of being shot everywhere we go. Every country has its problems and it is sad to hear of the constant shootings in the US especially when young people with a whole life ahead of them have their lives cut short like this. Just shows that we shouldn’t take license for granted, even if we live in a very safe country like the UK. Any of us could die tomorrow. I pray that God helps the families of those who died and gives them comfort at this difficult time and I pray that God will give America’s leaders the strength to stand up against the NRA and find ways to prevent such tragedies in the future.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    There can be no serious dispute that the wide availability of guns in America has led to a much higher rate of gun homicide. Construing the Second Amendment to mean people must be able to buy semi-automatic rifles and semi-auto pistols without licensure literally means dead children. Refusing to introduce proper background checks, limits on numbers of firearms, closing the gunshow loophole, literally means dead children.

    It's nauseating that there are American right-wingers who will consciously decide that they would prefer some children die (and thousands of adults) so that they can maintain their almost completely unrestricted right to buy and own guns.

    Of course, I guess many of them may not be consciously deciding that; they are so biased, and so willing to believe whatever crap Fox News, Breitbart, Infowars and the NRA pour down their gullet, that they genuinely believe that more guns makes people safer.

    This proclaimed need to have guns so that they can violently rise up against a future tyrannical government is total idiocy. It's not guns that prevent tyranny, it's centuries of political norms and conventions, of the rule of law, of respect for political plurality and civil rights, these centuries of accretions of rights and democratic norms, that prevent tyranny. Ironically, many of these extremist right-wingers are right now setting fire to the rule of law, to centuries of political norms and conventions, in defence of the Orange Fuhrer and because they will happily destroy democracy as long as it "triggers liberals"
    Exactly. If the US required prospective gun owners to do tests and extensive training and have long waiting periods, as well as restrict the amount of firearms and ammunition one could own, this could vastly reduce the number of mass shootings. It's not a gun ban that is needed, especially in a country where many people treasure their right to own firearms and where the culture is different from ours, but there are simple measures America could take. The problem is that the NRA is far too powerful there, especially when it comes to Republican politicians.
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    I notice quite often that when there is a mass shooting in the US, there’s a lot of compassion and condolences from Americans on social media but from Brits it tends to be “Americans are a bunch of stupid gun-toting psychos”, “fix your gun problem America”, “just another day in the US who cares”. At the end of the day, this is an extremely sad and horrific event. We shouldn’t use it merely as a platform for expressing our dislike for American gun laws while failing to stand in solidarity with our great ally. Obviously America is in mourning, especially since these people were very young, and we should be horrified and saddened at this incredible tragedy. It’s frustrating that there seems to be a lack of compassion and respect for America and Americans at times like this.
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    17 dead so far
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    (Original post by gjd800)
    Well, as long as we all send thoughts and prayers, it'll be fine.
    Love the sarcasm

    But yes, year after year, mass shooting after shooting, same attitudes towards it, never changes. USA wants this so they'll keep getting it unfortunately.

    Divide it up. US - South with 150 million (roughly, Trumpers, gun support, racists etc)

    US-North 150 millions (roughly)

    Like Sudan which currently split into two
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    Extremely sad for all of the victims and their families.

    I can't say I'm surprised; this kind of thing happens far too often in the US.
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    (Original post by Notoriety)
    Can you be a grown up and desist with the ad hominem attacks? Thanks.
    That wasn't an ad hominem attack... an ad hominem would be something like saying "why should I act like a grown up when I'm conversing with a child who thinks more guns fixes the gun problem". What I actually said is your argument doesn't have any basis to it - which is the simple truth.


    This is based on sheer conjecture of how you imagine people would react. In a situation of life and death, the fight response kicks in. Similar to how a green cop faced with an armed suspect has the awareness to check their surroundings, make sure their partners are not caught in the cross-fire. Now you could say the cop has gun training; but why is it unimaginable that a hypothetical designated protector would not have extensive training.

    The sheer panic you talk about is more akin to a flight response.
    You say it's based on conjecture but your argument is based on conjecture and an overinflated view of your own abilities to react. So, let's be quite clear about this - "good guy with a gun" is a naive fool who will panic, not check their surroundings properly, will not be prepared and will be a hazard, or ineffective at best. The armed civilian does not stop active shootings, American history shows this conclusively.
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    ”. At the end of the day, this is an extremely sad and horrific event.
    It is, but it's so normalised it's hard to care honestly. Vegas last summer, I remember a stat saying it was something like the 190th mass shooting (I.e. at least four killed) in 175 days. When mass shootings are a daily occurrence, you end up just reacting as "yep; another one. You guys gonna do anything about it this time?". Anger and sadness are for shocking things, America not having mass shootings would be more shocking at this point
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    Valentine's Day can be a trigger for young men with difficulties forming relationships with the opposite sex.
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    (Original post by Notoriety)
    Can you be a grown up and desist with the ad hominem attacks? Thanks.



    I never said they would be ineffective, or I would never have suggested their efficacy at saving lives. I said an ineffective result is rather unlikely to be the exacerbating kind you describe.



    This is based on sheer conjecture of how you imagine people would react. In a situation of life and death, the fight response kicks in. Similar to how a green cop faced with an armed suspect has the awareness to check their surroundings, make sure their partners are not caught in the cross-fire. Now you could say the cop has gun training; but why is it unimaginable that a hypothetical designated protector would not have extensive training.

    The sheer panic you talk about is more akin to a flight response.



    Your entire position relies on the idea that a person could not be trained to carry a firearm and be responsible when doing so. Even though when these situations come to an end, you'd be relying on a police officer who has been trained to carry a firearm ending the situation.
    Right and how do the cops distinguish between the good guy with a gun and the bad guy with the gun? What will happen is that they'll both end up dead because the cops won't know who to shoot.Also if good guys with guns works then why hasn't it worked before?
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    Extremely sad news. In the UK, we're lucky to be living in this great country where we do not have to live in fear of being shot everywhere we go. Every country has its problems and it is sad to hear of the constant shootings in the US especially when young people with a whole life ahead of them have their lives cut short like this. Just shows that we shouldn’t take license for granted, even if we live in a very safe country like the UK. Any of us could die tomorrow. I pray that God helps the families of those who died and gives them comfort at this difficult time and I pray that God will give America’s leaders the strength to stand up against the NRA and find ways to prevent such tragedies in the future.
    Prayers and condolences help with nothing.If God actually gave a damn then he wouldn't have allowed it to happen in the first place.Praying after the event is a waste of time.Its just a way for politicians to look like they are doing something without actually doing something.
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    Nothing will change. There are too many guns in the US, the gun lobby is powerful and a significant proportion of the population want to keep them.
    Even if there was one a week they wouldnt really change.
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    I notice quite often that when there is a mass shooting in the US, there’s a lot of compassion and condolences from Americans on social media but from Brits it tends to be “Americans are a bunch of stupid gun-toting psychos”, “fix your gun problem America”, “just another day in the US who cares”. At the end of the day, this is an extremely sad and horrific event. We shouldn’t use it merely as a platform for expressing our dislike for American gun laws while failing to stand in solidarity with our great ally. Obviously America is in mourning, especially since these people were very young, and we should be horrified and saddened at this incredible tragedy. It’s frustrating that there seems to be a lack of compassion and respect for America and Americans at times like this.

    There is a lack of compassion for Americans from Americans as well.Too many words and crocodile tears from politicians.Not enough change.They care more about a document from the 17th century and their imaginary friend than they do about the lives of actual people.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    a significant proportion of the population want to keep them.
    A majority of the US population support introducing at least one form of gun control. In spite of this however, US politicians are highly unlikely to ever consider gun control legislation, due to the strength of the NRA lobby.
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    (Original post by Dez)
    A majority of the US population support introducing at least one form of gun control. In spite of this however, US politicians are highly unlikely to ever consider gun control legislation, due to the strength of the NRA lobby.
    It doesnt matter. Ideas of control differ wildly. There are simply too many guns in circulation now and there isnt the political will or support to really go for it. It must be really strange attending school thinking that it is a ppossibility there will be a mass shooting. I can only think of three such events in the UK and they all resulted in public consensus and new laws.
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    It doesnt matter. Ideas of control differ wildly. There are simply too many guns in circulation now and there isnt the political will or support to really go for it. It must be really strange attending school thinking that it is a ppossibility there will be a mass shooting. I can only think of three such events in the UK and they all resulted in public consensus and new laws.
    The UK has a very different legal and political culture, though. Even if American politicians wanted to introduce strict European-style gun control, it is by no means certain that they would be able to - the Supreme Court would likely strike any law which curtails the second amendment down, in the US a two-hundred-year-old piece of paper reigns supreme. And with another originalist on the bench, that doesn't look likely to change anytime soon.
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    (Original post by Snufkin)
    The UK has a very different legal and political culture, though. Even if American politicians wanted to introduce strict European-style gun control, it is by no means certain that they would be able to - the Supreme Court would likely strike any law which curtails the second amendment down, in the US a two-hundred-year-old piece of paper reigns supreme. And with another originalist on the bench, that doesn't look likely to change anytime soon.
    That is what I am pointing out. they could change the constitution or reinterepret it if the people wanted it to be.
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    Mental illness is definitely a factor, but it's not the only one and I don't agree with every white school shooter being labelled with one. There are (probably) hundreds of thousands of kids in America who have both mental illness and access to guns and by far the large majority of them would never use it in a mass shooting. Same for bullying.
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    (Original post by Robby2312)
    Right and how do the cops distinguish between the good guy with a gun and the bad guy with the gun? What will happen is that they'll both end up dead because the cops won't know who to shoot.Also if good guys with guns works then why hasn't it worked before?
    A cop should not shoot to kill in order to end a situation like this, unless there is an immediate risk to themselves or others. They will give commands for the suspect to drop the weapon, put their hands in the air, and to get on the ground. They'd give that opportunity to victims, as well as the suspect.


    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    You say it's based on conjecture but your argument is based on conjecture and an overinflated view of your own abilities to react. So, let's be quite clear about this - "good guy with a gun" is a naive fool who will panic, not check their surroundings properly, will not be prepared and will be a hazard, or ineffective at best. The armed civilian does not stop active shootings, American history shows this conclusively.
    It really has nothing to do with my abilities as a gunman. I do not agree with gun ownership, the use of guns, nor do I suppose myself expert in their use. A wild assumption from you. The basis of my argument is understanding how people react in these situations. I know it might seem paradoxical to you who is arguing a priori, but go research more of these shootings and try to understand the mechanics of a) how they're done and b) how the spree is ended.

    In this case, the students were cowering in their classrooms waiting for their turn (as it were), with the sound of gunfire in the background. The suspect was arrested by a police officer with a side arm issuing commands to surrender -- seemed self-preservation was on his mind.

    There have been spree killings ended by an armed civilian. Note I was not suggesting an armed civilian per se would improve the situation. I suggested a designated protector, with the implication that they have been trained hence "designated".

    PS: I am making this argument because it is paradoxical to Brits, even though there is a sound basis to it. I am not sure why you're responding with long-held superficial beliefs, given the whole point of my post was to dispel them. Yes, I know you don't agree with my point; that's why I made it in the first place! The next thing you have to do is try to consider my point and not dismiss it with ad hominem, straw man and generally being rude.
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    A guy with an assault rifle is obviously a danger to himself and others.Obviously they will shoot to kill.Even if he weren't the cops in America are notoriously trigger happy.They shot a black kid with a toy gun fairly recently.A guy with an assault rifle shooting up a school and you think the cops won't shoot to kill? That's crazy.
 
 
 
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