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    (Original post by Caesar333)
    Homicide decreases, assuming all other factors are constant.

    The burden of proof is now on you to prove banning guns means people switch to other methods to kill.
    What other factors and proof

    Look at the homicide rates of the uk and the homicide rates declining steadily pre and post gun ban Australia
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    What other factors and proof

    Look at the homicide rates of the uk and the homicide rates declining steadily pre and post gun ban Australia
    I've already explained why looking at overall homicide rates are silly. Other factors that affect homicide rates such as population.

    Do you have anything to say with the fact that banning guns lead to a decrease gun homicides? Or have you accepted that?

    You need to prove to me that banning guns lead to an increase in other means of killing, knifes, whatever.
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    (Original post by Caesar333)
    I've already explained why looking at overall homicide rates are silly. Other factors that affect homicide rates such as population.

    Do you have anything to say with the fact that banning guns lead to a decrease gun homicides? Or have you accepted that?

    You need to prove to me that banning guns lead to an increase in other means of killing, knifes, whatever.
    I don’t care about gun homicides I care about homicide as a whole

    If the homicide rate stays the same (it does) then you have to explain how that can happen with gun deaths going down without the other methods going up.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    I don’t care about gun homicides
    I dont care about what you're saying either then.
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    (Original post by Caesar333)
    I dont care about what you're saying either then.
    Why are gun homicides worse than any other type of homicide? To me homicide is equally bad no matter the weapon
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Why are gun homicides worse than any other type of homicide? To me homicide is equally bad no matter the weapon
    That's not what I said.

    Stricter gun laws are aimed to tackle gun homicides. So to say "i dont care" makes you look silly.
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    (Original post by XMaramena)
    I grew up with handguns, can honestly say this is a poor idea. People should be allowed to own handguns for sporting use, but IMO they should only be kept at a Section 5 approved range with secure storage that can be rented by members. They should never be allowed to leave the facility, except to be taken to a gunsmith, or transferred to a different range.

    If you feel like you need a handgun anywhere other than a target range, you probably shouldn't have one.
    This is an extremely valid point that I'd like to see addressed by the authors (apologies if this has been done so on the next page, I haven't got that far yet)
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    (Original post by Caesar333)
    That's not what I said.

    Stricter gun laws are aimed to tackle gun homicides. So to say "i dont care" makes you look silly.
    Why should people care about gun homicides? The UK has proved that they are entirely replaced with homicides of other forms, meaning that gun homicides are irrelevant. It is a question of what type of situation is worse and I feel much more inclined to support a society where law-abiding citizens have effective means to defend themselves.
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    This is an extremely valid point that I'd like to see addressed by the authors (apologies if this has been done so on the next page, I haven't got that far yet)
    I do not see the validity in it. Whilst it is true that firearms should be kept in secure storage, it is ridiculous to infer that wanting one for self-defence makes you either paranoid or dangerous. To the contrary, gun owners do a good job of disincentivising robberies and, with the correct regulations in place, would be key in stopping tragedies which we all know still occur through other means. Increasing the population's independence to defend themselves through their own means, in addition to the statistics showing firearms do not increase crime, mean that this is a worthy cause to support. However, people seem to be stuck on the point that they personally don't like weapons; if prohibition does not have noticeable effects on preventing harm then why should personal choice not be permissible?
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    (Original post by Saunders16)
    I do not see the validity in it. Whilst it is true that firearms should be kept in secure storage, it is ridiculous to infer that wanting one for self-defence makes you either paranoid or dangerous. To the contrary, gun owners do a good job of disincentivising robberies and, with the correct regulations in place, would be key in stopping tragedies which we all know still occur through other means. Increasing the population's independence to defend themselves through their own means, in addition to the statistics showing firearms do not increase crime, mean that this is a worthy cause to support. However, people seem to be stuck on the point that they personally don't like weapons; if prohibition does not have noticeable effects on preventing harm then why should personal choice not be permissible?
    Do you have any stats that guns reduce robberies? I would have thought that all it does is increase the number of people getting shot.

    Clearly more guns = more people getting shot
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    Do you have any stats that guns reduce robberies? I would have thought that all it does is increase the number of people getting shot.

    Clearly more guns = more people getting shot
    I could have explained myself better, I do not have statistics showing that guns reduce robberies but there are statistics earlier in the thread showing that a higher quantity of guns mean that robberies are much less likely to take place while somebody is at home, reducing the risk of harm that currently takes place in that scenario. I would not dispute that more guns mean that more people get shot, but gun crime has been entirely replaced with other types of crime where would-be victims have a much lower capacity for self-defence. The statistics showing that less robberies take place while somebody is at home prove that gun owners can defend their property more effectively as would-be criminals have something to fear. It has been called vigilante justice, but I would instead refer to this as people being able to resolve more of their own problems without government, a desirable outcome.
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    (Original post by Saunders16)
    Why should people care about gun homicides?
    I didnt take you seriously after this.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    What other factors and proof

    Look at the homicide rates of the uk and the homicide rates declining steadily pre and post gun ban Australia
    Mass shootings or mass murders have gone down significantly since the ban of guns in the UK look at the US mass shootings are happening every week because of easily accessible guns.
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    (Original post by Saunders16)
    I could have explained myself better, I do not have statistics showing that guns reduce robberies but there are statistics earlier in the thread showing that a higher quantity of guns mean that robberies are much less likely to take place while somebody is at home, reducing the risk of harm that currently takes place in that scenario. I would not dispute that more guns mean that more people get shot, but gun crime has been entirely replaced with other types of crime where would-be victims have a much lower capacity for self-defence. The statistics showing that less robberies take place while somebody is at home prove that gun owners can defend their property more effectively as would-be criminals have something to fear. It has been called vigilante justice, but I would instead refer to this as people being able to resolve more of their own problems without government, a desirable outcome.
    Surely gun-crime is less desirable than say, knife crime though? It's very hard to commit a mass-murder with a knife but easy to do with a gun. It's easier to disarm someone with a knife than someone with a gun who can harm you from range.

    I'm also not convinced there is a large enough problem in the UK to warrant people defending themselves with guns and instead of kids taking knives out on the streets they'll be taking their parents guns.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    You mean like the uk who banned handguns and the homicide rate increased?
    Banning handguns had absolutely nothing to do with the increase.
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    (Original post by Conceited)
    Banning handguns had absolutely nothing to do with the increase.
    And it didn’t reduce it.

    If we want to discuss homicide and violent crime reduction we should talk about hiring more cops as the drop in the homicide rate occurred when we hired more of them and now we have a smaller number of officers violent crime including homicide is increasing.

    People mentioned the Parkland shooting in this thread and that could have been stopped if the USA had more officers who could do the job as they were told that he was planning it but they didn’t handle it correctly.
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    Surely gun-crime is less desirable than say, knife crime though? It's very hard to commit a mass-murder with a knife but easy to do with a gun. It's easier to disarm someone with a knife than someone with a gun who can harm you from range.

    I'm also not convinced there is a large enough problem in the UK to warrant people defending themselves with guns and instead of kids taking knives out on the streets they'll be taking their parents guns.
    Anything can be used for mass murder, look at the terror attacks in London
    If you attack a crowd which these mass shootings tend to include happening then it’s not really that much harder.

    There are plenty of legal guns in the uk already and it’s not law abiding citizens using them to commit homicide it’s people who are already criminals using illegally held guns to terrorise the unarmed public.

    It’s already possible to get guns illegally which is what your point talks about kids doing.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    And it didn’t reduce it.
    I am aware.

    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Anything can be used for mass murder, look at the terror attacks in London
    If you attack a crowd which these mass shootings tend to include happening then it’s not really that much harder.

    There are plenty of legal guns in the uk already and it’s not law abiding citizens using them to commit homicide it’s people who are already criminals using illegally held guns to terrorise the unarmed public.

    It’s already possible to get guns illegally which is what your point talks about kids doing.
    You do reaslise that compared to guns, knives and cars are almost innocuous. Unless you're a Marvel superhero, impacts from attacks like the Las Vegas shooting wouldn't have been felt on such a large scale with a knife or car.

    I am a passive supporter of gun law relaxation, an impression felt from the lack of my responses here. Despite that being the case, I genuinely don't understand why gun proponents like yourself make a link between cars/knives and guns like they're similar. Furthermore, the amount of guns in the UK amount to roughly 1.8 million and when you consider the size of our population referring to the amount of guns our there as 'plenty' - at least, to me - appears dishonest.
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    (Original post by Caesar333)
    Guns are not the primary cause of homicides. More people die by fists than any other sort of weapon. For example, 1 person a week dies in the UK because of domestic violence.

    Overall homicide rates are a silly way of looking at it due to the weak link between gun laws and overall rates, since guns already make up only a portion of homicides. There is however a stronger link between gun laws and regulation and homicides related to guns.

    London has an issue with knife crime, but would it be fair to say that thats not true because overall homicide rates are decreasing? Of course not.

    The first link is also the main one, which is about violent crime in general.
    Actually sharp instruments are the biggest killers in the UK, more than twice as many homicides with sharp instruments than unarmed, two and a half times in the US

    Actually you will find that gun homicides made up a very significant portion of homicides in Australia, and still do


    It's a triviality that more guns= more gun deaths, but then it has to be asked: why is it worse for a gun homicide to be committed than any other given the evidence points to the homicides being committed either way (if this weren't the case then we would have seen an accelerated reduction in homicide rates given that the other methods would be unchanged)

    As for knife crime in London, this is a false equivocation given that there is no regulatory change with knives, you're looking at a very narrow data set (a couple of years in one place) and it would be inaccurate to say that rates have fallen
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    (Original post by The PoliticalGuy)
    Mass shootings or mass murders have gone down significantly since the ban of guns in the UK look at the US mass shootings are happening every week because of easily accessible guns.
    Double dose of fake news here given the rates have not dropped significantly in the UK, after removing the troubles from the equation we go from mass shootings being incredibly rare (only two by civilians ever pre ban) to incredibly rare (one post ban), further there are not "weekly" mass shootings in American unless you include gang violence and fimilicides, public mass shootings, that is the likes of Florida and Vegas have for decades happened at a consistent rate. Further the frequency of and deaths from these public mass shootings on a per capita basis are lower than many European countries (terrorism excluded)
 
 
 
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