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I'd like to ask a stupid question (if University becomes free) watch

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    Labour say they will scrap tuition fees if given power. There's generally always debate around it and I don't think we can categorically say that it will remain the same, with 100% confidence.

    If I pay off my 30k debt tomorrow and 1 year later tuition fees are scrapped - would I recover my money? And if not, surely there would be outcry? Imagine if someone paid it off a month before it was scrapped.

    I'm sure I heard Labour say they would scrap existing debts? Or have I got that wrong?
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    (Original post by Toums)
    Labour say they will scrap tuition fees if given power. There's generally always debate around it and I don't think we can categorically say that it will remain the same, with 100% confidence.

    If I pay off my 30k debt tomorrow and 1 year later tuition fees are scrapped - would I recover my money? And if not, surely there would be outcry? Imagine if someone paid it off a month before it was scrapped.

    I'm sure I heard Labour say they would scrap existing debts? Or have I got that wrong?
    Just like how many laws and policies are introduced, there will be an implementation period.

    I think there will be an outcry, but people will get over it and accept the new way of life, just like they did with the 9k fee hike.
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    (Original post by Toums)
    Labour say they will scrap tuition fees if given power. There's generally always debate around it and I don't think we can categorically say that it will remain the same, with 100% confidence.

    If I pay off my 30k debt tomorrow and 1 year later tuition fees are scrapped - would I recover my money? And if not, surely there would be outcry? Imagine if someone paid it off a month before it was scrapped.

    I'm sure I heard Labour say they would scrap existing debts? Or have I got that wrong?
    Jeremy the absolute boy Corbyn implied that he would pay off existing student debt - I think his exact words were he would "deal with it". Even as hardcore a lunatic as he had to come to terms with the impossibility of everything they were trying to promise with no means to pay for it other than some nebulous concept of "making the rich pay".

    So he went back on it and it's pretty much accepted that Momentum-Labour are not looking at implementing policy of writing off existing student debt - Corbyn says now that it was never a pledge - it wasn't in their manifesto - although a few members of the Shadow Cabinet did say they would do it.

    We are talking about more than £100bn, after all.


    On the other point of what would happen if tuition fees were scrapped - well I don't see any logic in retrospectivity - otherwise it would be entirely arbitrary. Sure - it's tough if you graduated last year. But then why would you not wipe it off for the people 2 years ago, or 3?

    It would be an entirely political calculation - Momentum would have to make a guess at how many votes they'll get out of it. If most graduates and current students would already vote Labour, there's nothing in it for them. It would be the parents of prospective students that they'd be looking to bribe with money they can only really get from taxing other people more, or borrowing it.
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    (Original post by Toums)
    Labour say they will scrap tuition fees if given power. There's generally always debate around it and I don't think we can categorically say that it will remain the same, with 100% confidence.

    If I pay off my 30k debt tomorrow and 1 year later tuition fees are scrapped - would I recover my money? And if not, surely there would be outcry? Imagine if someone paid it off a month before it was scrapped.

    I'm sure I heard Labour say they would scrap existing debts? Or have I got that wrong?
    There would be no outcry - the sort of people who pay fees up front or earn enough to pay them off are not high on labours priority list.

    Plus you would have bigger concerns with the tax rates which would be needed to pay for all the promises.
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    (Original post by Toums)
    Labour say they will scrap tuition fees if given power. There's generally always debate around it and I don't think we can categorically say that it will remain the same, with 100% confidence.

    If I pay off my 30k debt tomorrow and 1 year later tuition fees are scrapped - would I recover my money? And if not, surely there would be outcry? Imagine if someone paid it off a month before it was scrapped.

    I'm sure I heard Labour say they would scrap existing debts? Or have I got that wrong?
    I think if you had already paid your debt back or paid your fees up front, that would just be your bad luck, sadly. You'd have to be a higher earner to do this, so JC probably isn't very interested in you.

    It's arguably an argument against paying fees up front for the next couple of years. If you can pay them off, then it's worth weighing up the money in your pocket in the future, vs the lump sum now, and how your student debt might affect your tax/pension liability and your ability to apply for a mortgage etc. I don't think it's a simple calculation either way.

    I think it's very unlikely that Labour will be able to scrap all existing student debt.
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    I believe that there should be at least a few free universities in the UK, although leave all the paid ones existing. In some countries like in Russia and generally in Asian countries, the universities are free and the percentages of people going to university are much higher- more than 50% and in the UK it's only 30%.
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    (Original post by Fhu)
    I believe that there should be at least a few free universities in the UK, although leave all the paid ones existing. In some countries like in Russia and generally in Asian countries, the universities are free and the percentages of people going to university are much higher- more than 50% and in the UK it's only 30%.
    Universities are like cartels, they will do anything they can to sabotage the free ones. If the free ones are as good as the paid ones, then people would no longer choose it.

    Imagine there is a top uni like Cambridge, Manchester or Imperial, but does not charge fees. Why would you want to attend Oxford and pay £9250, when you can go to a similar uni for free with no major debts.
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    (Original post by Fhu)
    In some countries like in Russia and generally in Asian countries, the universities are free and the percentages of people going to university are much higher- more than 50% and in the UK it's only 30%.
    That's not necessarily a good thing though if we have too many people with degrees and not enough jobs to fill them. It's been mentioned repeatedly that in some cases too many students are going and getting degrees, meaning they are less valuable and desirable. Simply going to uni and getting a degree is not really a good or outstanding thing any more.

    I'm also not sure I agree with that 30% of people in the UK going to uni thing. I've seen sources claiming closer to 50% and even this one that says 1 in 3 only factors 18 year olds, ignoring anyone older going to uni. I don't feel like 30% is an accurate figure, unless we are taking things like the entire population into account or only looking at those going on to uni after college. Can you elaborate on that?
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    That's not necessarily a good thing though if we have too many people with degrees and not enough jobs to fill them. It's been mentioned repeatedly that in some cases too many students are going and getting degrees, meaning they are less valuable and desirable. Simply going to uni and getting a degree is not really a good or outstanding thing any more.

    I'm also not sure I agree with that 30% of people in the UK going to uni thing. I've seen sources claiming closer to 50% and even this one that says 1 in 3 only factors 18 year olds, ignoring anyone older going to uni. I don't feel like 30% is an accurate figure, unless we are taking things like the entire population into account or only looking at those going on to uni after college. Can you elaborate on that?
    Do you think the problem is with the quantity rather than the quality of degrees? Some people have argued that many students study “dead” subjects that have no real value and others come out with very poor understanding of their subjects that they are not even considered good enough for the job.

    Last year, a former top policy adviser for the UK government came out to say that some people are losing out by studying “rubbish” courses or attending “waste of space” unis.

    To me, i am inclined to agree that there are some rubbish unis and dead courses, but I am not going to start the old debate of STEM vs non-STEM.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...e-nick-timothy
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    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    Do you think the problem is with the quantity rather than the quality of degrees? Some people have argued that many students study “dead” subjects that have no real value and others come out with very poor understanding of their subjects that they are not even considered good enough for the job.

    Last year, a former top policy adviser for the UK government came out to say that some people are losing out by studying “rubbish” courses or attending “waste of space” unis.

    To me, i am inclined to agree that there are some rubbish unis and dead courses, but I am not going to start the old debate of STEM vs non-STEM.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...e-nick-timothy
    I think it's a bit of both. We have lots of people getting degrees with very little to differentiate them but also lots of people getting degrees that don't reliably lead anywhere. I also don't want to turn this into a STEM vs non-STEM debate but on a general level I think non-STEM degrees suffer from a lack of quality (they don't tend to lead into careers) while STEM suffers from quantity (lots of students taking those degrees with little to differentiate them).

    In either case, plenty of students come out of uni without the skills that make them employable, regardless of what degree they studied. There is an abundance (quantity issue) of students with degrees that don't have the skills (quality issue) that they need to really differentiate them from their many peers (quantity issue).

    I think the problem is both that many students don't end up on "worthwhile" degrees that lead somewhere and that students aren't trying to differentiate themselves. Simply coming out with a 2:1 or even a First is not enough nowadays.

    That said I don't think university is entirely to blame for this. I know plenty of students who are looking desperately for placements and if they don't find one they will graduate without any work experience. I've not really struggled in my placement search but if I had, I also worked for 4 years before coming to uni. Even before uni, I already had an advantage over a lot of my peers.

    I think the quantity of degrees coupled with the lack of useful skills is partly to blame but I also think that the whole "pushing students to go because university is more accessible" is another part of the issue. I don't think there is enough of a focus on self development, both from students and from educational institutions. I'm very much for the idea that everyone take a gap year before uni, work part time if they can and generally spend some time developing and improving themselves in ways that are not related to their education.

    If i were to pinpoint a single issue I think students on the whole suffer from faulty thinking. There's no desire to improve themselves or set themselves apart from the competition and that hurts them when they graduate. In relation to fees I think students should stop relying purely on what they get out of their £9K per year degree. In many cases, students would benefit far more from a few cheap books on self development, some work experience and the abundance of free skills and knowledge that can be picked up online. I'd also like to make it clear that this is not a substitute for a university education, merely something to supplement it.

    Students are happy to pay £9K a year to not stand out but are unwilling to (or don't even consider the idea of) pay(ing) out £50 for a few books or an online course to learn some valuable skills that aren't taught at uni.
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    Can they really scrap tuition fees? think about it where is that money going to come from?

    I digress
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    I think it's a bit of both. We have lots of people getting degrees with very little to differentiate them but also lots of people getting degrees that don't reliably lead anywhere. I also don't want to turn this into a STEM vs non-STEM debate but on a general level I think non-STEM degrees suffer from a lack of quality (they don't tend to lead into careers) while STEM suffers from quantity (lots of students taking those degrees with little to differentiate them).

    In either case, plenty of students come out of uni without the skills that make them employable, regardless of what degree they studied. There is an abundance (quantity issue) of students with degrees that don't have the skills (quality issue) that they need to really differentiate them from their many peers (quantity issue).

    I think the problem is both that many students don't end up on "worthwhile" degrees that lead somewhere and that students aren't trying to differentiate themselves. Simply coming out with a 2:1 or even a First is not enough nowadays.

    That said I don't think university is entirely to blame for this. I know plenty of students who are looking desperately for placements and if they don't find one they will graduate without any work experience. I've not really struggled in my placement search but if I had, I also worked for 4 years before coming to uni. Even before uni, I already had an advantage over a lot of my peers.

    I think the quantity of degrees coupled with the lack of useful skills is partly to blame but I also think that the whole "pushing students to go because university is more accessible" is another part of the issue. I don't think there is enough of a focus on self development, both from students and from educational institutions. I'm very much for the idea that everyone take a gap year before uni, work part time if they can and generally spend some time developing and improving themselves in ways that are not related to their education.

    If i were to pinpoint a single issue I think students on the whole suffer from faulty thinking. There's no desire to improve themselves or set themselves apart from the competition and that hurts them when they graduate. In relation to fees I think students should stop relying purely on what they get out of their £9K per year degree. In many cases, students would benefit far more from a few cheap books on self development, some work experience and the abundance of free skills and knowledge that can be picked up online. I'd also like to make it clear that this is not a substitute for a university education, merely something to supplement it.

    Students are happy to pay £9K a year to not stand out but are unwilling to (or don't even consider the idea of) pay(ing) out £50 for a few books or an online course to learn some valuable skills that aren't taught at uni.
    I agree with you. I think there is a blame game, but the students end up losing out. Sometimes the poor ones.

    The rich ones already have the game on lock. They go to privat schools, enter Oxbridge or one of the “Big 8” Universities (LSE, Imperial, Manchester, UCL etc.). They then go on to work for mummy’s law firm or Daddy’s bank with a degree in classical dance.

    I think University education needs a big re-think and some Universities should stop selling fake dreams to unwitting students. Not all students will do the jobs that they want in the end, the key is the prepare you for the future.

    I also think that many of my peers have this “work for an employer” mindset. They aren’t thinking of whether they can be the employers or help to create a future by pushing the boundaries of humanity forward. Even on here, i read stuff like “how can i get the good grades to end up in this dead-end job with no prospects”.

    I do not blame them though, i think people will aspire for what they have been taught to aspire towards.

    I also agree with the one year off before university. This will enable people to think about themselves and what they want to do with their lives.
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    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    I agree with you. I think there is a blame game, but the students end up losing out. Sometimes the poor ones.

    The rich ones already have the game on lock. They go to privat schools, enter Oxbridge or one of the “Big 8” Universities (LSE, Imperial, Manchester, UCL etc.). They then go on to work for mummy’s law firm or Daddy’s bank with a degree in classical dance.

    I think University education needs a big re-think and some Universities should stop selling fake dreams to unwitting students. Not all students will do the jobs that they want in the end, the key is the prepare you for the future.

    I also think that many of my peers have this “work for an employer” mindset. They aren’t thinking of whether they can be the employers or help to create a future by pushing the boundaries of humanity forward. Even on here, i read stuff like “how can i get the good grades to end up in this dead-end job with no prospects”.

    I do not blame them though, i think people will aspire for what they have been taught to aspire towards.

    I also agree with the one year off before university. This will enable people to think about themselves and what they want to do with their lives.
    In some respects, I think you could consider the system to be working well there. As nice as it'd be if everyone had grand aspirations we still need the vast majority of "average" people to fulfill job roles. It'd be great if more people took the "I want to be the boss" mindset but if they did we'd have a problem at the opposite end of the spectrum. We'd have too many people looking to play boss and not enough people to work for them. So in that respect while things are wrong, they do at least cater to what we need (workers instead of bosses).

    I think in general education needs a big rethink, not just at the level of university. There are fundamental problems such as the ones described but they exist from a lower level of education. By the time students get to university, they've already had the wrong types of thinking ingrained in them.
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    In some respects, I think you could consider the system to be working well there. As nice as it'd be if everyone had grand aspirations we still need the vast majority of "average" people to fulfill job roles. It'd be great if more people took the "I want to be the boss" mindset but if they did we'd have a problem at the opposite end of the spectrum. We'd have too many people looking to play boss and not enough people to work for them. So in that respect while things are wrong, they do at least cater to what we need (workers instead of bosses).

    I think in general education needs a big rethink, not just at the level of university. There are fundamental problems such as the ones described but they exist from a lower level of education. By the time students get to university, they've already had the wrong types of thinking ingrained in them.
    That is very true.

    I meant that there should be more creative thinking than consumerist thinking. If more people engaged in start-ups or creating new things, there will be growth in many industries that will lead to more jobs for the workers.

    I agree with your points and I share your opinion that more should be done for students in the early years of their education.
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    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    That is very true.

    I meant that there should be more creative thinking than consumerist thinking. If more people engaged in start-ups or creating new things, there will be growth in many industries that will lead to more jobs for the workers.

    I agree with your points and I share your opinion that more should be done for students in the early years of their education.
    Ah I see what you mean. That line of creationist thinking seems to exist solely in big brands like Google nowadays. While I appreciate it doesn't fit every company, it would be nice to encourage employees to have ideas
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    Ah I see what you mean. That line of creationist thinking seems to exist solely in big brands like Google nowadays. While I appreciate it doesn't fit every company, it would be nice to encourage employees to have ideas
    True. Perhaps it will be better to encourage young people to have the ideas to create the next Facebook or Snapchat or Instagram, rather than aiming to work for Google or Goldman Sachs.
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    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    True. Perhaps it will be better to encourage young people to have the ideas to create the next Facebook or Snapchat or Instagram, rather than aiming to work for Google or Goldman Sachs.
    I think that's a rather subtle but good shift in mindset. From a practical perspective though, the vast majority of people simply aren't capable of that. I somewhat disagree with telling people that they "won't create the next big thing" but at the same time I'd also be very careful with encouraging it.

    I find that line of thinking becomes dangerous as it sets the bar too high for most to achieve; people end up thinking they're a failure when they don't create the next Snapchat. Instead I would encourage ideas in general, rather than aiming to be the next "something". Even just encouraging students to fix small problems they might face locally is a step in the right direction, without the need to address global audiences like Facebook or Snapchat does.
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    I think that's a rather subtle but good shift in mindset. From a practical perspective though, the vast majority of people simply aren't capable of that. I somewhat disagree with telling people that they "won't create the next big thing" but at the same time I'd also be very careful with encouraging it.

    I find that line of thinking becomes dangerous as it sets the bar too high for most to achieve; people end up thinking they're a failure when they don't create the next Snapchat. Instead I would encourage ideas in general, rather than aiming to be the next "something". Even just encouraging students to fix small problems they might face locally is a step in the right direction, without the need to address global audiences like Facebook or Snapchat does.
    That is fair, but I dont really see it as forcing people into a ruthlessly focused tunnel vision of themselves. I am leaning towards encouraging more of an entrepreneurial spirit, where people are comfortable in creating things that others can use.

    I think if you force it, most of the time it does not work out and I can see it affecting many people’s mental health and view of their worth.

    I’d rather encourage a balance approach that suggests to people that you can build the next big thing or you can work for the next big thing, so we are here to support you to develop the necessary skills to be able to take control of your destiny. This way, people would appreciate and focus on self-improvement.

    I think some of the big ideas of recent years have come from young people just being young, rather than a focus on the pursuit of absolute greatness.
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    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    That is fair, but I dont really see it as forcing people into a ruthlessly focused tunnel vision of themselves. I am leaning towards encouraging more of an entrepreneurial spirit, where people are comfortable in creating things that others can use.

    I think if you force it, most of the time it does not work out and I can see it affecting many people’s mental health and view of their worth.

    I’d rather encourage a balance approach that suggests to people that you can build the next big thing or you can work for the next big thing, so we are here to support you to develop the necessary skills to be able to take control of your destiny. This way, people would appreciate and focus on self-improvement.

    I think some of the big ideas of recent years have come from young people just being young, rather than a focus on the pursuit of absolute greatness.
    That's fair, I'd definitely like to encourage the ideas surrounding entrepreneurial processes more, even if that's not something everyone would be interested in. It's not for everyone and that's alright but I'd like for it to be an option for those who are interested. Even then, there are a lot of positive concepts surrounding it that everyone would benefit from, things like self sufficiency and perseverance, even if they didn't ever want to take the entrepreneurial route.
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    That's fair, I'd definitely like to encourage the ideas surrounding entrepreneurial processes more, even if that's not something everyone would be interested in. It's not for everyone and that's alright but I'd like for it to be an option for those who are interested. Even then, there are a lot of positive concepts surrounding it that everyone would benefit from, things like self sufficiency and perseverance, even if they didn't ever want to take the entrepreneurial route.
    I agree. I guess it is back to the point on encouraging students in early years of education.
 
 
 
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