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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Camford have about 30,000 applicants between them.

    Also the 5 uni limit with UCAS is a key factor and tends to preclude every Tom, Deirdre and Mary from applying to Camford, whereas anyone with $80 can apply to as many Ivies and similar as they like (per application).
    You have completely missed out that each of those schools that require $80 to apply also requires an average of 2 supplemental essays (some 4), at times some supplemental application materials, at times supplemental recommenders and more interview prep, as well as less time overall. Some colleges like MIT require complete separate applications with about 6 essays averaging 230 words each. Most of the universities also require answers to further questions about Activities, Contacts and your Family.

    The max is 20. You still can't deny the fact that the barriers of admission to HYPCSM are higher than that of Oxbridge. Secondly, Oxbridge is much easier to apply to - there is only one test to take and an interview. For the US, you need to organise 3 recommenders yourself, take up to 3 standardised test, as spend a lot of time researching, an interview, then refining multiple essays. UCAS is just one Statement, a joke compared to the US process. The US is much harder to apply to and harder to get in.
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    (Original post by bant_bus)
    You have completely missed out that each of those schools that require $80 to apply also requires an average of 2 supplemental essays (some 4), at times some supplemental application materials, at times supplemental recommenders and more interview prep, as well as less time overall. Some colleges like MIT require complete separate applications with about 6 essays averaging 230 words each. Most of the universities also require answers to further questions about Activities, Contacts and your Family.

    The max is 20. You still can't deny the fact that the barriers of admission to HYPCSM are higher than that of Oxbridge. Secondly, Oxbridge is much easier to apply to - there is only one test to take and an interview. For the US, you need to organise 3 recommenders yourself, take up to 3 standardised test, as spend a lot of time researching, an interview, then refining multiple essays. UCAS is just one Statement, a joke compared to the US process. The US is much harder to apply to and harder to get in.
    How many seperate applications does an average Ivy/HYPSM/Top applicant make?
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    (Original post by bant_bus)
    You have completely missed out that each of those schools that require $80 to apply also requires an average of 2 supplemental essays (some 4), at times some supplemental application materials, at times supplemental recommenders and more interview prep, as well as less time overall. Some colleges like MIT require complete separate applications with about 6 essays averaging 230 words each. Most of the universities also require answers to further questions about Activities, Contacts and your Family.

    The max is 20. You still can't deny the fact that the barriers of admission to HYPCSM are higher than that of Oxbridge. Secondly, Oxbridge is much easier to apply to - there is only one test to take and an interview. For the US, you need to organise 3 recommenders yourself, take up to 3 standardised test, as spend a lot of time researching, an interview, then refining multiple essays. UCAS is just one Statement, a joke compared to the US process. The US is much harder to apply to and harder to get in.
    Nope. In addition to my UCAS application (personal statement, reference etc), I had to submit an additional form with another reference and grade breakdown. Then had to submit two essays and two translations, sit two exams and two interviews. This was for Oxford Modern Languages.

    Arguments about competitiveness based on raw admissions statistics are ridiculous. By that logic, the most competitive (and by extension, 'prestigious') universities in the UK are not Oxbridge, or perhaps even LSE (which has a notoriously low acceptance rate), but actually universities like Bristol. There are quite a few unis in the UK with a single-digit acceptance figure (*will provide source later when I'm not rushing off to class), because they are fallbacks for Oxbridge rejects, middle-of-the-roads for good students, and long shots for weaker candidates. Suffice to say, it's patently untrue that unis such as Bristol are the most competitive in the UK (no offence to Bristolians); we have our system of self-selectivity with its own quirks.
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    (Original post by Greatleysteg)
    Nope. In addition to my UCAS application (personal statement, reference etc), I had to submit an additional form with another reference and grade breakdown. Then had to submit two essays and two translations, sit two exams and two interviews. This was for Oxford Modern Languages.

    Arguments about competitiveness based on raw admissions statistics are ridiculous. By that logic, the most competitive (and by extension, 'prestigious') universities in the UK are not Oxbridge, or perhaps even LSE (which has a notoriously low acceptance rate), but actually universities like Bristol. There are quite a few unis in the UK with a single-digit acceptance figure (*will provide source later when I'm not rushing off to class), because they are fallbacks for Oxbridge rejects, middle-of-the-roads for good students, and long shots for weaker candidates. Suffice to say, it's patently untrue that unis such as Bristol are the most competitive in the UK (no offence to Bristolians); we have our system of self-selectivity with its own quirks.
    Okay my bad, I didn't know the application process for MFL. For Architecture at Cambridge, I had 1 interview and one test. That's it. My point is that every student applying to the top unis in the US goes through a multitude of tests, and at least 2 interviewers + all the other stuff listed above.

    Secondly, I'm not sure who you're referring to me regarding the comparison of competitivity of unis by metric alone. I actually went against that earlier and suggested comparing the metrics/profiles of the average admitted & rejected students instead to determine competitiveness - my guess is that this is much better. Remember, data will and can always be made to support opposing sides.
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    How many seperate applications does an average Ivy/HYPSM/Top applicant make?
    Some Ivy applicants make One, others make 15. The number of applications made to schools does not seem to be a function of the quality of applicant. If anything, I'd say that those who aim for top 100-200 or state schools make more applications as there are fewer requirements to fulfil per application so it is easier and less time-consuming to apply. One may counter this by saying those applying to top schools apply to more as smarter people have a higher tendency to come from rich backgrounds as a result of money being put into the student's education. This means that the student will have more money to spend on more applying to more schools and will have more resources.
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    (Original post by bant_bus)
    Some Ivy applicants make One, others make 15. The number of applications made to schools does not seem to be a function of the quality of applicant. If anything, I'd say that those who aim for top 100-200 or state schools make more applications as there are fewer requirements to fulfil per application so it is easier and less time-consuming to apply. One may counter this by saying those applying to top schools apply to more as smarter people have a higher tendency to come from rich backgrounds as a result of money being put into the student's education. This means that the student will have more money to spend on more applying to more schools and will have more resources.
    Exactly....
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    (Original post by angelinahx)
    Considering the amount of international students applying
    Pretty irrelevant when admissions is contextual.. You'll be competing against other Brits not people from Singapore, China etc. Not to mention your achievements are looked at in context with your environment - so although there might be a boatload of public school applicants with perfect everything they'll be judged within that context whilst someone from a comp will be judged within what they have had at their disposal.

    Still hard to get in but it's not armaggedon hard.
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    (Original post by angelinahx)
    You appear to be either in denial or completely uninformed on how the US college admission process works - it appears you believe that every student accepted automatically is provided with a full ride. I recommend you watch this short video for perspective (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmkAfRSjnm0). It's about an excellent US student who got accepted into all eight Ivy Leagues and five other top schools who rejected all of these schools and went to the University of Alabama on a full ride, as none of these "top schools" provided him with enough financial assistance.

    You... you do realize loans are a form of financial aid, right? You also only need to pay these loans back when earning over £25k and it gets written off after 30 years... right? And that Oxbridge provide scholarships based on the financial needs of their admitted students, right? The student loan process in the UK is far more lenient than the one in the US.
    1. That guy is an idiot. ROI on network, opportunities and experience in going to any top tier ivy far outpaces Bama in every way imaginable.

    2. All schools that meet full need, meet full need - as assessed on your financial aid form. There are even policies where if uour oarents income is below a certain threshold they contribute nothing. That guy had pretty well to do parents if the financial aid wasn't enough - especially at those schools. In essence, it was a choice for him.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    1. That guy is an idiot. ROI on network, opportunities and experience in going to any top tier ivy far outpaces Bama in every way imaginable.

    2. All schools that meet full need, meet full need - as assessed on your financial aid form. There are even policies where if uour oarents income is below a certain threshold they contribute nothing. That guy had pretty well to do parents if the financial aid wasn't enough - especially at those schools. In essence, it was a choice for him.
    1. He saved his parents $200,000 and is going to apply for Harvard Medical School. What y'all don't seem to understand is that an undergrad only gets you so far. Truly smart people do well no matter what school they go to. Many billionaries never completed college. Rely on your own intelligence instead of "uhhm ... ??? i went to a top school" and you will go far.
    2. That is not true, not all students are granted full rides as shown by the video. His parents were expected to pay $200,000. Supposing OP isn't a deprived kid on FSMs, his/her parents will be expected to pay as well. There is a reason US parents start saving up for college when their kids are born rather than encouraging them to apply to colleges with a 4% acceptance rate and hoping for the best.
    3. Oxbridge provides a 100% loan and added bursaries if your parents make under a certain threshold and has been ranked above Harvard in certain rankings and above Ivies such as Cornell, Yale, Penn and Columbia in every single world ranking published in 2018.
    4. Hence, go Oxbridge.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Pretty irrelevant when admissions is contextual.. You'll be competing against other Brits not people from Singapore, China etc. Not to mention your achievements are looked at in context with your environment - so although there might be a boatload of public school applicants with perfect everything they'll be judged within that context whilst someone from a comp will be judged within what they have had at their disposal.

    Still hard to get in but it's not armaggedon hard.
    ... And this is based upon? The acceptance rate for international students is far lower than the acceptance rate for US students and many Ivies have a self-imposed quota for int students. This is a statistical reality. Not sure where you're getting your information from or how this is relevant in any way.
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    (Original post by angelinahx)
    1. He saved his parents $200,000 and is going to apply for Harvard Medical School. What y'all don't seem to understand is that an undergrad only gets you so far. Truly smart people do well no matter what school they go to. Many billionaries never completed college. Rely on your own intelligence instead of "uhhm ... ??? i went to a top school" and you will go far.
    2. That is not true, not all students are granted full rides as shown by the video. His parents were expected to pay $200,000. Supposing OP isn't a deprived kid on FSMs, his/her parents will be expected to pay as well. There is a reason US parents start saving up for college when their kids are born rather than encouraging them to apply to colleges with a 4% acceptance rate and hoping for the best.
    3. Oxbridge provides a 100% loan and added bursaries if your parents make under a certain threshold and has been ranked above Harvard in certain rankings and above Ivies such as Cornell, Yale, Penn and Columbia in every single world ranking published in 2018.
    4. Hence, go Oxbridge.
    1. Fair enough, should have caveated my point for people considering JDs/MDs.

    2. Well, of course. Full rides only apply to applicants whose parents make less than $60-80k depending on the university's policy. But to have to pay $200k at an ivy league university, your parents' income will have to be >$250k a year, by which point they could afford it or they have significant non-retirement assets that they could sell to afford it. Most people don't come from families like that. At many schools of that calibre, parental contribution is very much capped at 10-20% of income for most people (i.e. those making more than the free ride limit, but less than the upper bound to get no aid).

    3. If you were eligible for loans at Oxbridge, you'd have $0 debt from a top american school. Have a case of a friend from the UK that got into NYU-Abu Dhabi.. her total financial aid package is $75k a year (including flights, meals, trips, board everything). I'm not going to talk about reputation with Oxbridge vis a vis top us schools.. they're both great but different. Someone who prefers the independent, tutorial based education at Oxbridge might not enjoy the wide breadth and flexibility and consistent assessment of a liberal arts education.. That said, the upper tier of the US top universities will insert you into a network and a field of opportunities unlike anywhere else.

    4. Hence, apply to both and weigh up your decision when you hear back.



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    (Original post by angelinahx)
    ... And this is based upon? The acceptance rate for international students is far lower than the acceptance rate for US students and many Ivies have a self-imposed quota for int students. This is a statistical reality. Not sure where you're getting your information from or how this is relevant in any way.
    Spoke to some friends helping the admissions department at a few top schools (ala Stanford, Harvard, Yale etc). Applications are sorted by region and read within the socio-economic context of that region.

    The overall acceptance rate, maybe, but regional acceptance rates might vary. It's relevant because OP would be competing on a context-adjusted basis with other UK applicants not as a whole against the universe of international applicants - very important distinction.

    Some evidence:

    "In recent past years, we’ve received about 500 applications from the UK and have admitted 25-40 students."

    http://www.harvard-ukadmissions.co.u...e-looking-for/

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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Spoke to some friends helping the admissions department at a few top schools (ala Stanford, Harvard, Yale etc). Applications are sorted by region and read within the socio-economic context of that region.

    The overall acceptance rate, maybe, but regional acceptance rates might vary. It's relevant because OP would be competing on a context-adjusted basis with other UK applicants not as a whole against the universe of international applicants - very important distinction.

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    I don't think you fully read or understood what I wrote.
    Most Ivy Leagues have a self-imposed quotaon international students. This is true on a regional level. This is true overall. Hence, the international acceptance rate is significantly lower than the one for US citizens. This is in comparison to Cambridge with a 20% acceptance rate which has outranked Harvard on many, many occasions.
    Oxbridge is not even comparable to NYU in terms of quality. NYU is ranked 52nd in the world. For comparison, the Mancs is ranked 34th. Secondly, it's astounding that your international student friend received financial aid from NYU out of all places considering how stringy they are with financial aid, even for US citizens. They even explicitly write on their website that: "the primary responsibility for meeting college costs rests with the student and the family" and that "NYU is not able to meet the full need of every student". This sentiment dominates most US universities except from a few wealthy Ivies. Only 48% of US freshmen at NYU get any financial aid at all. Your "friend" must be extraordinary, but she's far from the norm.
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    (Original post by angelinahx)
    I don't think you fully read or understood what I wrote.
    Most Ivy Leagues have a self-imposed quotaon international students. This is true on a regional level. This is true overall. Hence, the international acceptance rate is significantly lower than the one for US citizens. This is in comparison to Cambridge with a 20% acceptance rate which has outranked Harvard on many, many occasions.
    Oxbridge is not even comparable to NYU in terms of quality. NYU is ranked 52nd in the world. For comparison, the Mancs is ranked 34th. Secondly, it's astounding that your international student friend received financial aid from NYU out of all places considering how stringy they are with financial aid, even for US citizens. They even explicitly write on their website that: "the primary responsibility for meeting college costs rests with the student and the family" and that "NYU is not able to meet the full need of every student". This sentiment dominates most US universities except from a few wealthy Ivies. Only 48% of US freshmen at NYU get any financial aid at all. Your "friend" must be extraordinary, but she's far from the norm.
    NYU-Abu Dhabi (and Shanghai) is nothing like NYU standard.. It's lower than or equal to the ivies/other privates in terms of selectivity and guarantees a full ride* to anyone who's parents earn less than $200k. That wasn't my point though, my point was for most people getting into a top US (or top subsudiary like NYU-AD/NYU-SH or Yale-NUS) school costs less than it would in the UK.

    EDIT: Full tuition*

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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    4. Hence, apply to both and weigh up your decision when you hear back.
    A key point. One needs to actually get offers before deciding if Oxbridge > HYPSM or whatever. :yep:

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    (Original post by bant_bus)
    Okay my bad, I didn't know the application process for MFL. For Architecture at Cambridge, I had 1 interview and one test. That's it. My point is that every student applying to the top unis in the US goes through a multitude of tests, and at least 2 interviewers + all the other stuff listed above.

    Secondly, I'm not sure who you're referring to me regarding the comparison of competitivity of unis by metric alone. I actually went against that earlier and suggested comparing the metrics/profiles of the average admitted & rejected students instead to determine competitiveness - my guess is that this is much better. Remember, data will and can always be made to support opposing sides.
    You take one test (SAT or ACT), maybe two more if you decide to take two SAT Subject Tests (not always required, mostly recommended/optional), and one interview -- and the interviews are just to get to know you as a person, and are not academic in the slightest, and are actually very enjoyable!
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    (Original post by angelinahx)
    1. He saved his parents $200,000 and is going to apply for Harvard Medical School. What y'all don't seem to understand is that an undergrad only gets you so far. Truly smart people do well no matter what school they go to. Many billionaries never completed college. Rely on your own intelligence instead of "uhhm ... ??? i went to a top school" and you will go far.
    2. That is not true, not all students are granted full rides as shown by the video. His parents were expected to pay $200,000. Supposing OP isn't a deprived kid on FSMs, his/her parents will be expected to pay as well. There is a reason US parents start saving up for college when their kids are born rather than encouraging them to apply to colleges with a 4% acceptance rate and hoping for the best.
    3. Oxbridge provides a 100% loan and added bursaries if your parents make under a certain threshold and has been ranked above Harvard in certain rankings and above Ivies such as Cornell, Yale, Penn and Columbia in every single world ranking published in 2018.
    4. Hence, go Oxbridge.
    Totally agree with @Princepieman on the comparison of US and UK unis being 'both great but different'. I think it is becoming better for international, especially UK students, to get an education at Ivies.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...vy-League.html (Jan, 2018)

    My opinion is that an Education at Harvard, in general, is better that one at Oxbridge. My opinion is also that in some ways, Columbia, Yale, Penn and Princeton are better than Oxbridge. As you have so clearly and incorrectly inferred, how 'good' a uni is cannot be based off rankings (though it is a decent starting point).

    My friend applied to Oxbridge and some Ivies for engineering and strongly believes Columbia, Cornell and Princeton to be better for engineering and addressing the technological needs of the 21st century (despite rankins). She finds it utterly ridiculous that Oxbridge are ranked 1st and 2nd in the UK for engineering (those pesky, biased rankings). Oxbridge admissions are very academics-heavy, whilst Ivy league admissions take into account being very smart plus so much more, relevant to changing the world, through engineering, instead of lots of rigorous maths (which is important, ofc) and a much smaller hands-on focus. Oxbridge tends to produce 'book smart' engineers whilst Ivies tend to produce engineering leaders and change-inducers. You'll find the founders of the biggest and best companies (IBM, Google, Amazon, SpaceX) went to the top US Unis at some point in their lives - adjust for the number of graduates at Oxbridge and the Ivies and you'll still see a huge difference.

    The average engineer admits to MIT, Cornell, Princeton, Columbia and Stanford have much stronger and better extra-curriculars than those at Oxbridge, whilst still having similar grades. You can get into and secure your offer at Oxford with A*AA and some extra-curricular activities. At MIT, anything less than A*A*A*A is almost a joke - this plus jaw-dropping ECs ( possibly already published/engaged in research common, multiple national/regional awards always present and an unfaltering passion to change the world through technology and engineering. Here is an admit to Columbia, which is definitely towards the higher end of applicants, but is much more common than you may think:

    https://backdoorgraduteschooladmissi...p-universities

    One last point: One can go to Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Columbia, Yale, Northwestern, Duke, Princeton for f r e e. This will never be the case for Oxbridge (excluding external scholarships which still won't cover 100% of uni costs).
 
 
 
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