Why do politicians want to pretend mass immigration isn't a problem? watch

Tim_01 · 03-03-2018 10:12

(Original post by yudothis)
Oh do shut up and listen to people who actually know something about these things. You actually just want to push your agenda, don't you?

1. The long term doesn't matter if you don't get there. 2. It will only become a problem if we again have too many and too many that don't have enough children and we don't have too many because natives aren't having enough kids. Combine those things and we need immigration.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapo.../#6b7fc06d4917

Absolute tripe; most countries manage without nearly 70 million people. No country "needs" huge populations.

TCA2b · 03-03-2018 10:18

It’s mostly justified to keep up the fetish of boosting ‘gdp growth’, which just resolves to a measure of spending activity and not much else. Certainly not a barometer of an economy’s health.

yudothis · 03-03-2018 11:26

(Original post by bob072)
You haven't answered the points and have shown no reasoning but just stated we need more immigration and given links to articles. Not worth responding to.

Okay kiddo, stay in your bubble of stupidity and ignorance.

yudothis · 03-03-2018 11:30

(Original post by Tim_01)
Absolute tripe; most countries manage without nearly 70 million people. No country "needs" huge populations.

Did you even read the article? I didn't say countries need huge populations. I said in order to take care of the vast number of old people, a country needs sufficiently younger ones. Since in Europe natives aren't birthing enough, immigration achieves this. I have furthermore linked two more sources, none of the tabloids but finance/economics ones that state the same.

If you want to come across as an ignorant buffoon, that's your prerogative, but don't put words in my mouth I didn't even say. I didn't say countries need huge populations. Read and think.

Tim_01 · 06-03-2018 09:44

(Original post by yudothis)
Did you even read the article? I didn't say countries need huge populations. I said in order to take care of the vast number of old people, a country needs sufficiently younger ones. Since in Europe natives aren't birthing enough, immigration achieves this. I have furthermore linked two more sources, none of the tabloids but finance/economics ones that state the same.

If you want to come across as an ignorant buffoon, that's your prerogative, but don't put words in my mouth I didn't even say. I didn't say countries need huge populations. Read and think.

The "vast number" (your words) of old people is not helped by importing hundreds of thousands of immigrants a year as firstly immigrants do get old too you know and secondly they are not all working as carers!!! Perhaps you should "read and think" a little too. Large scale immigration does strangely enough create large populations... And incidentally namecalling people you don't agree with is never a good idea; pot kettle and all that...

yudothis · 06-03-2018 16:18

(Original post by Tim_01)
The "vast number" (your words) of old people is not helped by importing hundreds of thousands of immigrants a year as firstly immigrants do get old too you know and secondly they are not all working as carers!!! Perhaps you should "read and think" a little too. Large scale immigration does strangely enough create large populations... And incidentally namecalling people you don't agree with is never a good idea; pot kettle and all that...

Some other muppet already brought the "oh but they get old too" nonsense...

I don't name call you because I don't agree with you. I do it because you refuse to accept the evidence. This is not about opinions. If anything, I'm not a fan of high immigration either, especially Muslim ones that don't integrate, I don't want Germany to turn into France.

Doesn't change the fact that we need immigrants, as I have explained and then linked multiple sources confirming that. This is about as much fact as you might get when dealing with economic issues. This isn't about opinions.

bob072 · 06-03-2018 17:01

(Original post by yudothis)
Some other muppet already brought the "oh but they get old too" nonsense...

I don't name call you because I don't agree with you. I do it because you refuse to accept the evidence. This is not about opinions. If anything, I'm not a fan of high immigration either, especially Muslim ones that don't integrate, I don't want Germany to turn into France.

Doesn't change the fact that we need immigrants, as I have explained and then linked multiple sources confirming that. This is about as much fact as you might get when dealing with economic issues. This isn't about opinions.

You've failed to explain why we need mass migration to support the elderly. It's not a fundamental fact, just because some newspaper prints it. Can you?

yudothis · 06-03-2018 17:03

(Original post by bob072)
You've failed to explain why we need mass migration to support the elderly. It's not a fundamental fact, just because some newspaper prints it. Can you?

I did, in my very first post.

Can you put up more of an argument as "they will get old, too, at some point, duh"?

Mair18919 · 07-03-2018 00:30

(Original post by Dez)

The main demands on housing are the aging population and a drop in the size of the average household (i.e. more people living alone/in smaller households). Immigration is a factor as well, but it is not really the main concern.

A housing shortage is much more complex than a shortage of 'homes' of any kind. In fact many small flats have been built and the biggest shortage is of family houses , a demographic group which has increased in number ENTIRELY due to immigration. Brits are having fewer kids than ever before.
If elderly people living longer were the problem the demand would be for bungalows and sheltered flats.
No mention is made of a need for more of these kind of homes. Blaming the elderly is an excuse by the pro immigration lobby to cover up the problem it's causing.

There are more school pupils now than there were 10 years ago, however the increase has been fairly small in percentage terms, and would be entirely manageable, were it not for the reduction in spending that has been going on since 2010.

What is the percentage increase?
If the increase is concentrated in the younger age group, bear in mind it has a worse impact than if distributed across the age groups.
Bear in mind foreign children arriving can be very disruptive because first they don't usually speak English well and second they come and go throughout the year.
It is a more serious problem than you want to believe.

In any case, even if you shut down immigration overnight we'd still have a housing crisis, there is simply not enough homes being built regardless of whether you take migration into account or not.

True but it is still what is needed to give us a chance to catch up.
If you want to bale water out of your sink you dont leave the taps running.

Mair18919 · 07-03-2018 00:50

(Original post by yudothis)
I didn't say countries need huge populations. I said in order to take care of the vast number of old people, a country needs sufficiently younger ones. Since in Europe natives aren't birthing enough, immigration achieves this. I have furthermore linked two more sources, none of the tabloids but finance/economics ones that state the same.

I am afraid you have swallowed this fallacious argument without thinking it through.

You see, world population is growing unsustainably. its necessary for the TFR (total fertilty rate) to drop to 2.1 per woman to stabilise the population (even then it would take about 100 years for the effect to work through).

What you have to understand is that a zero growth population will have a much older demographic spread than countries have ever experienced historically, with fewer young and working age adults, more people in their sixties and seventies, and more frailer elderly 80+ many needing care.

Western countries need to deal with this and adapt in novel ways not clinging unsustainably to the demographic profile of the last century by importing more and more young ppl which cannot continue indefinitely.

**Dez** · 07-03-2018 08:48

(Original post by Mair18919)
A housing shortage is much more complex than a shortage of 'homes' of any kind. In fact many small flats have been built and the biggest shortage is of family houses , a demographic group which has increased in number ENTIRELY due to immigration. Brits are having fewer kids than ever before.
If elderly people living longer were the problem the demand would be for bungalows and sheltered flats.
No mention is made of a need for more of these kind of homes. Blaming the elderly is an excuse by the pro immigration lobby to cover up the problem it's causing.

The demand for 1-bed flats is very high, it's the most sought after type of dwelling for council housing and has similar demand in the private sector I believe. Flats in some areas will be on the market for a matter of hours, not days, because they get snapped up so quickly.

We are simply not building enough homes, houses, flats, whatever you want to focus on, it doesn't matter. There are not enough of them. There will continue to be not enough of them until the government pulls their finger out and gets more of them built.

(Original post by Mair18919)
What is the percentage increase?
If the increase is concentrated in the younger age group, bear in mind it has a worse impact than if distributed across the age groups.

I wrote this post over two weeks ago, so I don't remember exactly. It was less than 10% I think. I don't recall the exact difference between primary and secondary education numbers.

(Original post by Mair18919)
Bear in mind foreign children arriving can be very disruptive because first they don't usually speak English well and second they come and go throughout the year.

[citation needed]

(Original post by Mair18919)
It is a more serious problem than you want to believe.

There would be no problem whatsoever if funding had kept up with demand. There is plenty of budget available for primary/secondary education, the government would just prefer to spend their cash on inheritance tax breaks, it seems.

(Original post by Mair18919)
True but it is still what is needed to give us a chance to catch up.
If you want to bale water out of your sink you dont leave the taps running.

You must have exceptional clairvoyant powers to know that for certain. How exactly is a massive upheaval in the working age population going to allow us to "catch up" (whatever that means)? How is shutting down several British industries going to improve things? It all sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Know Your Enemy · 07-03-2018 08:55

(Original post by bob072)
It's so blindingly obvious for anyone in the real world and basic logic.

We are spending record amounts of money on education, housing, health but are all in trouble more than before.

The reason is because the population has increased (otherwise we wouldn't need new housing, pupil places at schools etc).

90% of that increase is from immigration where for years we have accepted 300,000 net immigrants (often young so will start families).

If we slow down to something sensible, like <30k net, we could give public services a chance to catch up.

Imo, it's because they fear being branded as 'racist' or something equally as stupid when 1) disliking immigrants is actually xenophobia, not racism and 2) people seem to assume you dislike immigrants when you want border control.

There is a difference between controlled immigration and stopping it entirely. Like you, I think we should have controlled immigration. We shouldn't stop it entirely.

History98 · 07-03-2018 11:12

(Original post by bob072)
If we slow down to something sensible, like <30k net, we could give public services a chance to catch up.

It's easy just saying net immigration should go down to under 30K but do you have a list of concrete immigration policy ideas that would drop net immigration down to those levels? That's the part the government is struggling with.

yudothis · 07-03-2018 12:24

(Original post by Mair18919)
I am afraid you have swallowed this fallacious argument without thinking it through.

You see, world population is growing unsustainably. its necessary for the TFR (total fertilty rate) to drop to 2.1 per woman to stabilise the population (even then it would take about 100 years for the effect to work through).

What you have to understand is that a zero growth population will have a much older demographic spread than countries have ever experienced historically, with fewer young and working age adults, more people in their sixties and seventies, and more frailer elderly 80+ many needing care.

Western countries need to deal with this and adapt in novel ways not clinging unsustainably to the demographic profile of the last century by importing more and more young ppl which cannot continue indefinitely.

No **** Sherlock. And while we figure out how to get our citizens to produce 2.1 babies per pair, we will just let young immigrants help us out in the meantime.

Mair18919 · 07-03-2018 13:34

(Original post by yudothis)
No **** Sherlock. And while we figure out how to get our citizens to produce 2.1 babies per pair, we will just let young immigrants help us out in the meantime.

European ruling elites are doing nothing to encourageindigenous Europeans to breed other than those on benefits who get more money the more kids they have.

It's not difficult to put financial incentives in place , but instead the message is pumped out that small families are a'good thing',. They seem to prefer to import immigrants. Why is this do you think?

Mair18919 · 07-03-2018 13:42

"The demand for 1-bed flats is very high, it's the most sought after type of dwelling for council housing and has similar demand in the private sector I believe. Flats in some areas will be on the market for a matter of hours, not days, because they get snapped up so quickly.

We are simply not building enough homes, houses, flats, whatever you want to focus on, it doesn't matter. "

It's artificial though, caused by the bedroom tax and financial constraints. Nobody actually wants to live in a one bedroom flat, everyone would prefer two bedrooms even single people.

But it was a radio program I heard which said that the most serious shortage was of three and four bedroom houses.

**Dez** · 07-03-2018 13:56

(Original post by Mair18919)
It's artificial though, caused by the bedroom tax and financial constraints. Nobody actually wants to live in a one bedroom flat, everyone would prefer two bedrooms even single people.

Speak for yourself, I quite like my cosy 1-bed flat. You're probably right though, sky-high rent has meant a lot of people have had to downsize when they'd prefer to have a bit more room.

(Original post by Mair18919)
But it was a radio program I heard which said that the most serious shortage was of three and four bedroom houses.

Demand at every level is high, that's the problem really. There's also going to be regional differences I would imagine, areas like London are not going to have the same housing demands as somewhere like Durham.

bob072 · 07-03-2018 14:03

(Original post by History98)
It's easy just saying net immigration should go down to under 30K but do you have a list of concrete immigration policy ideas that would drop net immigration down to those levels? That's the part the government is struggling with.

You're right, Theresa May and the governments since 2010 did an awful job of reducing non-EU migration, despite a commitment to have net migration below 100,000.

Firstly, make sure we actually leave the EU without any compromise, and do so as soon as we can.

Introduce a system of work permits for time-limited or seasonal work, and ensure we have exit checks.

The immigration we should accept are a sensible number of refugees, family unions, then high-skilled workers who can afford health insurance through a points system.

That would allow still about 400,000 immigrants per year (depending on emigration levels). I know it's easier to say than achieve, but other countries have done.

yudothis · 07-03-2018 16:51

(Original post by Mair18919)
European ruling elites are doing nothing to encourageindigenous Europeans to breed other than those on benefits who get more money the more kids they have.

It's not difficult to put financial incentives in place , but instead the message is pumped out that small families are a'good thing',. They seem to prefer to import immigrants. Why is this do you think?

I think you have too many conspiracy theories.

I do agree that more incentives for having kids should be put in place - but that doesn't just start with the government. It starts with jobs and companies who'd love slaves rather than people who have kids at home.

Mair18919 · 07-03-2018 17:04

(Original post by yudothis)
I think you have too many conspiracy theories.

I do agree that more incentives for having kids should be put in place - but that doesn't just start with the government. It starts with jobs and companies who'd love slaves rather than people who have kids at home.

So why do you think IF governments real concern is to maintain the demographic ratio as it was last century, that they are doing nothing at all to encourage earlier marriage and more prolific breeding am8ng the indigeous? In fact every action by successive governments discourages the traditional pattern of family life.

Youre accusing me of conspiracy theory but not offering an alternative explanation!

Btw I do not advocate growing the population at all, either by encouraging Brits to breed or still less by importing immigrants. I would like to see our population allowed to gently fall.

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