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Why do politicians want to pretend mass immigration isn't a problem? watch

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    (Original post by Mair18919)
    So why do you think IF governments real concern is to maintain the demographic ratio as it was last century, that they are doing nothing at all to encourage earlier marriage and more prolific breeding am8ng the indigeous? In fact every action by successive governments discourages the traditional pattern of family life.

    Youre accusing me of conspiracy theory but not offering an alternative explanation!

    Btw I do not advocate growing the population at all, either by encouraging Brits to breed or still less by importing immigrants. I would like to see our population allowed to gently fall.
    What exactly are they actively doing? Why is the "traditional pattern of family life" such an ideal to strive for? Why is it the only way to achieve a stable birth rate?
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    What exactly are they actively doing? Why is the "traditional pattern of family life" such an ideal to strive for? Why is it the only way to achieve a stable birth rate?
    You have dodged my question twice.
    Please answer before you expect me to reply to yours.
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    Economically it's better for an economy, but for a low paid individual, it's bad as it'll drive down wages. Also for higher skilled jobs, the same will happen. But politicians aspire for a better economy, so they can show off how much they've improved the nation.
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    (Original post by Mair18919)
    You have dodged my question twice.
    Please answer before you expect me to reply to yours.
    My answer are those questions. The first part of your question I answered by asking "why should they? What's so good about 'traditional families'"? The second part I don't know. I never made a claim. You are proposing an answer and a challenge to that answer you deflect by "tell me something else". I don't have to tell you something else to dismiss your conspiracy theory.
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    "Why should they?"

    That isn't an answer, it's a wriggle.

    I ask again, IF concern for the ageing profile of the population was a major driver behind governments choosing to import millions of foreigners, then why have they made not a single move to encourage a higher birthrate among the indigenous? In fact they have pursued changes which discourage it.

    The question I ask already excludes the question you pose in reply.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Some other muppet already brought the "oh but they get old too" nonsense...

    I don't name call you because I don't agree with you. I do it because you refuse to accept the evidence. This is not about opinions. If anything, I'm not a fan of high immigration either, especially Muslim ones that don't integrate, I don't want Germany to turn into France.

    Doesn't change the fact that we need immigrants, as I have explained and then linked multiple sources confirming that. This is about as much fact as you might get when dealing with economic issues. This isn't about opinions.
    I don't recall saying that we don't need "ANY" immigrants; now you are putting words in my mouth! I have always advocated a system of work permits or similar. That is why I am pleased that FOM is ending in the UK. A controlled number of highly skilled immigrants; yes please!. An endless supply of unskilled migrants; no thanks!

    That is the second or third time you have name called. I have read a lot on the subject from all sides and do not need your links to evidence thanks all the same! You wouldn't want me to accuse you of trying to "mansplain" would you? One only has to look at the actual number coming in. Even high immigration loving Labour politicians are now admitting that the figures are too high.

    I really don't see the point of continuing this discussion with someone who uses that tone and then attempts to put words in my mouth.
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    (Original post by Tim_01)
    I don't recall saying that we don't need "ANY" immigrants; now you are putting words in my mouth! I have always advocated a system of work permits or similar. That is why I am pleased that FOM is ending in the UK. A controlled number of highly skilled immigrants; yes please!. An endless supply of unskilled migrants; no thanks!

    That is the second or third time you have name called. I have read a lot on the subject from all sides and do not need your links to evidence thanks all the same! You wouldn't want me to accuse you of trying to "mansplain" would you? One only has to look at the actual number coming in. Even high immigration loving Labour politicians are now admitting that the figures are too high.

    I really don't see the point of continuing this discussion with someone who uses that tone and then attempts to put words in my mouth.
    Given that I have no idea whether you are a woman or not, that would be rather daft of you.

    But your idea of what is too high, is still wrong. We need more than just "high skilled" immigrants. Not to mention that morally, encouraging such brain drain is wrong. Though of course you are fully free to disagree with that, as that would be an opinion.

    You do realize that your problem isn't the Poles and other EU immigration, but immigration from your former empire.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Given that I have no idea whether you are a woman or not, that would be rather daft of you.

    But your idea of what is too high, is still wrong. We need more than just "high skilled" immigrants. Not to mention that morally, encouraging such brain drain is wrong. Though of course you are fully free to disagree with that, as that would be an opinion.

    You do realize that your problem isn't the Poles and other EU immigration, but immigration from your former empire.
    And why exactly do you see EU immigration as being OK and non-EU immigration bad?
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Given that I have no idea whether you are a woman or not, that would be rather daft of you.

    But your idea of what is too high, is still wrong. We need more than just "high skilled" immigrants. Not to mention that morally, encouraging such brain drain is wrong. Though of course you are fully free to disagree with that, as that would be an opinion.

    You do realize that your problem isn't the Poles and other EU immigration, but immigration from your former empire.
    the moment someone brings up the "empire" argument regarding immigration, they have already shown how small their circle of common sense is... No offence.

    No one alive today have gone through the acts of the British Empire. No one today are responsible for the actions of their ancestors. so saying that they should accept immigrants purely based on the actions of their ancestors is the system that exists in one of the vile places on the planet, North Korea.
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    (Original post by History98)
    And why exactly do you see EU immigration as being OK and non-EU immigration bad?
    Coz we need to be more white, innit.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    Firstly, make sure we actually leave the EU without any compromise, and do so as soon as we can.
    Agreed. I think immigration is more of an issue of government incompetence than conspiracy. Did you know we don't actually count people in and out of the country? EU migration is carried out by sending surveyors onto cross channel ships and trains and interviewing random people. The data is then extrapolated to give the migration figures. Talk about guesswork.

    But I don't think migration is necessarily a bad thing. Despite mass migration, our economy has grown and is robust. Employment is at record lows and wages are rising. Yes, housing is an issue, but that is an issue of planning, not of migration.
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    (Original post by RickHendricks)
    the moment someone brings up the "empire" argument regarding immigration, they have already shown how small their circle of common sense is... No offence.

    No one alive today have gone through the acts of the British Empire. No one today are responsible for the actions of their ancestors. so saying that they should accept immigrants purely based on the actions of their ancestors is the system that exists in one of the vile places on the planet, North Korea.
    I think you misunderstood my post.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    I think you misunderstood my post.
    i'm not actually following this thread. I just saw someone mentioning the British Empire in relation to current Immigration policy.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Agreed. I think immigration is more of an issue of government incompetence than conspiracy. Did you know we don't actually count people in and out of the country? EU migration is carried out by sending surveyors onto cross channel ships and trains and interviewing random people. The data is then extrapolated to give the migration figures. Talk about guesswork.
    Funnily enough, even non-EU and British net migration is also estimated using that same survey, it's called the international passenger survey. People go around UK borders with clipboards asking people to complete surveys, thats why the confidence interval in ONS figures so high. The UK finally set-up exit checks 2 years ago but it has not yet started using the data collected to better estimate migration. The biggest issue is that the sample is way too small, only 700K - 800K people are surveyed out of the hundreds of millions who enter and leave the UK every year. I mean annual international arrivals on their own are about 125 million per year, so a sample of 800K is way too small. Out of the all those 800k sampled only 5k turn out to be migrants and migration figures are then extrapolated from that.
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    (Original post by History98)
    Funnily enough, even non-EU and British net migration is also estimated using that same survey, it's called the international passenger survey. People go around UK borders with clipboards asking people to complete surveys, thats why the confidence interval in ONS figures so high. The UK finally set-up exit checks 2 years ago but it has not yet started using the data collected to better estimate migration. The biggest issue is that the sample is way too small, only 700K - 800K people are surveyed out of the hundreds of millions who enter and leave the UK every year. I mean annual international arrivals on their own are about 125 million per year, so a sample of 800K is way too small. Out of the all those 800k sampled only 5k turn out to be migrants and migration figures are then extrapolated from that.
    Interesting. There must be a solution. If only people carried some form of id around when entering or leaving the country. Then we could scan it!
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    If only people carried some form of id around when entering or leaving the country. Then we could scan it!
    Hang on a minute! Do you think the Home Office employs people with brains?
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    I've been studying a lot of this recently in my degree. Whilst I agree that migration numbers could be better controlled, your source (lack of) of information doesn't seem to include the benefits of migration to the country and how their contributions add to our economy. The data is often collected including children and the elderly who cannot work so it makes the figures look more like they're draining our system. In that sense, you could say British children and the elderly could be seen in the same way. If you did a survey of what British working people gave and used within the economy and looked at migrant workers and what they provided and used, I think you'd find a similar set of data between the two. The media like to ostracise one group of people to hide the real problems within our country and create moral panic.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    But I don't think migration is necessarily a bad thing. Despite mass migration, our economy has grown and is robust. Employment is at record lows and wages are rising. Yes, housing is an issue, but that is an issue of planning, not of migration.

    Migration (which no sensible person would want to stop) is very different thing from mass migration, or open borders to an entire continent.


    If you have 100,000s more people coming to live, work and spend money in a country then of course the GDP figure will grow. But that doesn't benefit our lives if it's outbalanced by waiting hours each day in traffic, being unable to afford a home, rising crime etc.


    I'm sorry but you can't be suggesting mass migration helps wage growth? (think about supply and demand of labour). Wages in many low-ish wage sectors have been compressed over the past decade, now they have risen as migration has fallen.


    We simply aren't able to plan for how many homes to build while we have an open door to 5,000,000 people and any number could come. And building a house every 4 seconds isn't easy to do.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    Migration (which no sensible person would want to stop) is very different thing from mass migration, or open borders to an entire continent.
    I agree. But we don't have open boarders. No one does. That said, we are not surrounded by high walls patrolled by the army either. If someone wants to come into our country, all they have to do is jump in a rowing boat and start rowing. Same with places like Greece and Italy.

    Just exactly how do you stop millions of people getting into a rowing boat and landing on your shores? And if they do land on your shores, what do you do with them? It is easy to say you simply send them back, but back where?

    The rhetoric of immigration makes the issue black and white and easy to solve. "Just build a wall, and make the other lot pay for it," said Trump. Except he hasn't built a wall. He hasn't even got the cash for it yet. Immigration is an exceedingly complex issue. There are no easy answers. And as inequality in the world grows - as war continues - as resources like water become scarce - as the world's population increases, we are going to see a heck of a lot more of it.
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    (Original post by Dez)
    I don't deny that immigration is a factor when it comes to housing demand.

    Aging has of course been going on for a while (forever, really), but household size changes are definitely a more recent phenomenon. Though perhaps not as recent as the changes in migration numbers, I'll concede.

    Really though it's all a moot point, since even cutting migration to zero would not fix the housing crisis. We don't have enough homes being built to sustain the current population, yet alone support the overall demand. The only real solution to the housing crisis is to build more homes.
    It is not a moot point at all.

    Net immigration has been running at a city the size of Birmingham every four years. And every year we have been building insufficient new stock to meet the demand for homes for all these people to live in, so the problem has been getting less and less tractable, and we now have a full blown crisis, as you admit.

    If we dramatically reduce immigration we can build more homes than the demand. We can start to get ahead of the curve.

    When you say the only real solution is to build more homes, you are considering one side of the equation, supply, but not the other, demand.
 
 
 
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