Haler22
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Hey, I was just wondering, how does banding work once someone is a junior doctor and then goes onto begin his Speciality Training? Do you get to choose your banding/ the hours and times you want to work, or do they get randomly given to you? Any help would be appreciated. Also past FY1 and FY2, how competitive is it to get into ST1 for various specialities? I heard that neurosurgery is a straight run through and that once you're in, you're in. What things can I do to enhance my application?
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ecolier
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(Original post by Haler22)
Hey, I was just wondering, how does banding work once someone is a junior doctor and then goes onto begin his Speciality Training?
Banding is gone with the 2016 contract, unless you are based in Scotland. Do not go further with exploring banding unless you are planning to work in Scotland.

Do you get to choose your banding/ the hours and times you want to work, or do they get randomly given to you?
It may seem random to you, but yes it is pre-determined. Therefore speaking to the doctors already working in the job may help (remember it may change for you!)

Any help would be appreciated. Also past FY1 and FY2, how competitive is it to get into ST1 for various specialities? I heard that neurosurgery is a straight run through and that once you're in, you're in. What things can I do to enhance my application?
The competition ratios are well advertised on the internet. Have you tried searching for "HEE Competition Ratios"?
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
Banding is gone with the 2016 contract, unless you are based in Scotland. Do not go further with exploring banding unless you are planning to work in Scotland.



It may seem random to you, but yes it is pre-determined. Therefore speaking to the doctors already working in the job may help (remember it may change for you!)



The competition ratios are well advertised on the internet. Have you tried searching for "HEE Competition Ratios"?
That's interesting, why did they get rid of banding? I understand that bands 2 and 3 are no longer legal, but surely a, b and c exist? And how so are they pre-determined? Also, thanks for the link, I will have a look.
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
Banding is gone with the 2016 contract, unless you are based in Scotland. Do not go further with exploring banding unless you are planning to work in Scotland.



It may seem random to you, but yes it is pre-determined. Therefore speaking to the doctors already working in the job may help (remember it may change for you!)



The competition ratios are well advertised on the internet. Have you tried searching for "HEE Competition Ratios"?
I just had a look and for some specialities it seems like the applicants to offers ratio is 1:5, I was just wondering, what happens if you're continually rejected and how would I maximise my chance of getting the place i want. I assume it's good to start early, or will things only matter once I get to FY1?
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nexttime
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(Original post by Haler22)
Do you get to choose your banding/ the hours and times you want to work
:laugh: haha good god no. You work where and when they tell you.

You do have an element of choice in that you will apply to a list of 'deaneries' i.e. locations (e.g. South London, Scotland etc). Most people get into one of their top 5 choices but not everyone. After that, you will be asked to choose from a more specific list of jobs, most commonly a stretch of 6 jobs lasting 2 years. Almost all choices will have 1 or 2 jobs you hate and will get no use from, but you have to do it anyway. Then once that is sorted, you will be given a rota and that is what you work, no further choice. You do get to choose when to take annual leave as that's a legal requirement. However, on many rotas the times you are allowed to take annual leave is very restricted.

The bigger choice comes when it comes to speciality training. You can choose specialities known to run their trainees into the ground e.g. many medical specialities, or you can choose something with better work life balance, like psychiatry or dermatology!

There is a bit of flexibility in the system, in that things like maternity leave will be accommodation (again, a legal requirement!) and under some circumstances you can go part time, but other than that the NHS is a very inflexible employer.
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Haler22
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(Original post by nexttime)
:laugh: haha good god no. You work where and when they tell you.

You do have an element of choice in that you will apply to a list of 'deaneries' i.e. locations (e.g. South London, Scotland etc). Most people get into one of their top 5 choices but not everyone. After that, you will be asked to choose from a more specific list of jobs, most commonly a stretch of 6 jobs lasting 2 years. Almost all choices will have 1 or 2 jobs you hate and will get no use from, but you have to do it anyway. Then once that is sorted, you will be given a rota and that is what you work, no further choice. You do get to choose when to take annual leave as that's a legal requirement. However, on many rotas the times you are allowed to take annual leave is very restricted.

The bigger choice comes when it comes to speciality training. You can choose specialities known to run their trainees into the ground e.g. many medical specialities, or you can choose something with better work life balance, like psychiatry or dermatology!

There is a bit of flexibility in the system, in that things like maternity leave will be accommodation (again, a legal requirement!) and under some circumstances you can go part time, but other than that the NHS is a very inflexible employer.
Are there any experiences you'd mind sharing? Like what specialities did you enjoy? Furthermore, do we all have to work on call then and isn't this system unfair as people will earn varying amounts through no choice of their own? Also without banding, is there no scope above the basic salary?
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nexttime
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(Original post by Haler22)
Are there any experiences you'd mind sharing? Like what specialities did you enjoy?
That's going to vary individual to individual. However, some specialities are well known for being lower intensity, less hours and less out of hours work than others. You will experience this through med schools and FY years.

Furthermore, do we all have to work on call then and isn't this system unfair as people will earn varying amounts through no choice of their own?
You'd rather people were paid the same even though some do more hours than others?

You are paid for what you do, broadly. That seems fair to me.

Also without banding, is there no scope above the basic salary?
There is no banding but you get paid more for doing more hours and more antisocial hours.

It is detailed here if you really want to know.

https://www.bma.org.uk/-/media/files...-june-2016.pdf
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Haler22
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(Original post by nexttime)
That's going to vary individual to individual. However, some specialities are well known for being lower intensity, less hours and less out of hours work than others. You will experience this through med schools and FY years.



You'd rather people were paid the same even though some do more hours than others?

You are paid for what you do, broadly. That seems fair to me.




There is no banding but you get paid more for doing more hours and more antisocial hours.

It is detailed here if you really want to know.

https://www.bma.org.uk/-/media/files...-june-2016.pdf
Thanks for the link and for taking the time to respond. I'm not saying we should get the same for working different hours, but rather if we want to work more hours we should be allowed too. I get that legally we can't work more than 56 per week, but still, it's kinda unfair.
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
You will have to take a gap year (working or travelling) and re-apply in Round 2 or next year. You can also apply to several specialties in one go, so you could go for another specialty which gave you an offer.



Yes start preparing your CV now in medical school.



Yes, you sort of know in advance but there will be some jobs that you will be paid more (because you have to do on-calls) and some jobs with no on-calls (so you will only be paid base salary).



I suppose so, when you word it that way. I had a friend who knew that he would have a rotation that he would get 100% banding in FY2, when he applied in 5th year!



Nope. You will be paid base salary only, for working Mon-Fri 9-5.
That clears things up, thanks. What things should I be doing apart from working on a Bsc for an extra year?
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
You can locum and earn extra!



Depends on what you have already done. The CMT website http://www.ct1recruitment.org.uk/rec...cation-scoring tells you what scores you extra - if you have any more questions feel free to ask!
I feel like medicine is changing so much, I wonder what the scheme will be in the future when I graduate. I guess the new system is okay, but what happens if we only get 40 hours? Plus tax makes it super hard to live, don't you think? On the other hand, working 48 hours is substantially higher than what it used to be, which is crazy. Do you know if you can register to work weekends (1:4 ish), or is that luck based to? Is there any way to find out which specialities lend themselves to longer work, as I won't have had a chance to experience all of them. Finally how do we go about being a locum (I guess you earn more, but this doesn't sound very appealing as I'd like to be knowing exactly what I'll be doing and when i'll be doing it).
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
Well an FY1 on £26614 / year and FY2 on £30805 / year isn't too bad (relative to other jobs). Obviously compared to other graduates at the same year (e.g. you at 24 years old, 2 years post-grad; versus a lawyer at 24 years old, 4 years post-grad) there will be a gap but it closes fairly quickly. A CT1 earns £36461 / year.



It's only the average. This could mean 1 week of 56 hours, then 1 week of 40 hours. I also don't know why you said it is higher than it used to be, because it used to be ~100 hours per week until the "New Deal" (aka old contract) came out in the early 2000s.



Your weekend frequency is pre-determined as well. You cannot choose any part of the rota.



What stage are you at? You should have a chance to experience most of them. For example neurology is a fairly lax specialty (in terms of hours), so is dermatology. Psychiatry too is good for work-life balance.



You sign up to the NHS (or an agency) locum bank. Don't worry you'll get emails every day (several times a daya at my trust!!) saying what vacancies they have. The pay is usually better if it is closer (in date) and if it is in a specialty in demand (e.g. Emergency medicine) but you may need experience in that specialty to be allowed to locum there.
Sorry by higher I meant you earn more for 48 hours of week as a base salary. And that's good to hear, what's your opinion on locuming? And do you have examples of the pay, I assume there's a fixed number of placements you can accept. Will they be mostly during unsociable hours? Say I get 42 hours a week on average, does this mean I'm free to do as much extra locum work as I like? In that sense, is there no cap on the earnings of a junior doctor? Finally, I had a look at the CT1 scoring system and it seems fairly reasonable to get a score in the high 20s/low 30s if you try hard enough - is there any data on what a good score is/ will guarantee interview? Thanks
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
No, actually the base salary has gone up like out beloved Health Secretary has said. It is only the banding that has been replaced (obviously there are other changes too).



I don't have any strong preferences for or against it. It is something that reflects the state of the NHS and the way it treats doctors (leading to rota gaps). That's all I have to say.



There is a cap on the maximum number of hours you can work per week. I cannot remember off the top of my head so perhaps others can join in (around 56 hours?)



Everyone eligible (UK graduate) is guaranteed an interview for CMT. There will be short-listing for more competitive specialties e.g. neurosurgery. I don't know the data for this. The application score only makes up 1/4 of the final score, the interview is much much more important.
That's interesting and is there nothing we can do about the interview? Thanks so much for your time and help btw, it's much appreciated.
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
You can read about it! Ask us if you have any more questions - http://www.ct1recruitment.org.uk/rec...re-and-content
Thank you very much, I think everything has been clarified now
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
You can read about it! Ask us if you have any more questions - http://www.ct1recruitment.org.uk/rec...re-and-content
Oops one last question, do you have an example of a locum job you've received and is it related to your speciality? Furthermore, are you on-call and what's the process behind this?
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
You can be a long term locum working for the same firm 9-5, or a long term locum working on an acute rota (= doing on-calls), or a short term locum just working the odd shift here or there (in addition to working full time)

Usually the short term locums are on-call shifts, e.g. you work 9-5 one day, and stay to work 17-22 (getting additional pay for the 5 hours); or you are free one weekend, so you work 9-5 on Saturday and Sunday (getting pay for 16 hours). Or you may be able to even take annual leave and then locum (you must clarify with HR before doing this)
What would the pay be like for the extra 5 hours? And what sort of jobs do doctors normally do on call? How do you prevent people from over-committing to work so that they don't do over 48 hours average per week?
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
It really depends on which hospital you are working for, what department you'll be working in, how close to the time they have advertised / you have agreed, and what grade you are in.



Seeing sick patients, doing out-of-hours ward rounds (usually weekends), clerking patients admitted, potentially assisting with (emergency) surgery.... lots more but there shouldn't be any routine work.



If you don't locum, it should be easy because the rota is planned out for you. If you are consistently staying late (due to workload), there is a system called "exceptional reporting" that you can make an online report about the hours you have stayed late and you can claim time or money back.

If you locum, they rely on your being complaint yourself. You could be in trouble if you work in excess of the arbitary hours just because you are locuming.
So in that sense, we get autonomy to decide how many hours of locum we want to work? Also why would anyone report themselves? Does that mean you can esentially work as long as you want, if it isn't having a huge effect?
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
Technically, but you don't want to work too much (otherwise all of us will be working all the time!) (1) Working "normally" is hard enough as it is (2) Many of us consider the rate of pay too low (3) Most of us value our free time much more than they are willing to pay.



I am sure there are ways they will know how many hours you are working. (1) Dishonesty is not a good look for doctors (2) It is proper trouble, not a slap on your wrist....
I completely get that, I wouldn't want to do something like that but i was just thinking hypothetically. Also you say the pay is too low. Isn't it above the basic rate, however, and so isn't it more lucrative? Could I, in essence, fill my timetable up so that I'm working exactly 48 hours a week everyweek? Or is it difficult?
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Haler22
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(Original post by ecolier)
Yes. You do not want to cheat the system.



Obviously, but most doctors would not consider it high enough for them to locum (hence there are the gaps!)



It is possible, and you'll be very good friends with your rota co-ordinator.
Thanks very much PRSOM
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As already explained, your rota is pre-determined with the basic hours being 40/week Mon-Fri 9-5. Hours beyond this earn you additional hourly rates, with the more antisocial hours being at enhanced rates.

You can locum to your hearts content, with rates generally ranging from £25-60/hr expending on your grade, the shift, the notice and how desperate the trust is.

You can opt out of the EWTD and have no restriction on your hours, but if you make a mistake, don’t be surprised if you overworking is used against you. The GMC expects you to take adequate breaks to ensure you are rested.

Also I don’t know how healthy it is to cram your life with locum work. I know a guy who would do 20 night shifts in a row and made obscene amounts of money. Unsurprisingly he collapsed on shift and had to be admitted.

It’s not that pay is bad anyway. I’m in core training, work 48hrs a week (average) and am on £48k.
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Haler22
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(Original post by Etomidate)
As already explained, your rota is pre-determined with the basic hours being 40/week Mon-Fri 9-5. Hours beyond this earn you additional hourly rates, with the more antisocial hours being at enhanced rates.

You can locum to your hearts content, with rates generally ranging from £25-60/hr expending on your grade, the shift, the notice and how desperate the trust is.

You can opt out of the EWTD and have no restriction on your hours, but if you make a mistake, don’t be surprised if you overworking is used against you. The GMC expects you to take adequate breaks to ensure you are rested.

Also I don’t know how healthy it is to cram your life with locum work. I know a guy who would do 20 night shifts in a row and made obscene amounts of money. Unsurprisingly he collapsed on shift and had to be admitted.

It’s not that pay is bad anyway. I’m in core training, work 48hrs a week (average) and am on £48k.
Do you do much locum work? Also I'm just a little concerned after tax as the fee then becomes small. Do you know anyone who's opted out of the EWTD? You mention a guy who did 20 night shifts in a row, how much was he earning roughly and what trouble did he get in? I feel his example is a little excessive, but how did he end up with so much work, especially during the night? And also do you know when private work becomes available? I assume it's once you become a consultant? Is this easy to obtain?
Thanks a lot for your response, is your 48k/year as a CT1 or CT3+?
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