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Would you ever consider getting an electric car? watch

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Hybrids do seem to be the way to go at present, although both the batteries and the infrastructure seem to be getting better all the time.

    I worry about electric vehicles for their quietness - several times in London I've nearly done myself in stepping in front of Uber's ubiquitous Priuses. I would hate to injure someone driving one because they simply hadn't heard it coming.
    They're definitely getting better, no argument here at all. But, for me, they're not yet up to the standard of what I'd want / expect from a car. Fine for pre-planned leisure, but I'd want it to be able to cope with emergencies. For that reason, I'd opt for a hybrid, until charging times can be brought down / battery performance can be greatly improved.

    Noise is less of an issue for me. Rolling resistance means there'll always be some noise associated with them, and you really ought to be looking before you cross the road
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    (Original post by RoyalSheepy)
    Would you ever consider getting one today, and why?

    Not at the moment, no.

    There's no charging infrastructure outside where I live right now, so I'd have to rely on Ecotricity (which charges an awful lot for a charge) in the local supermarket/retail park.
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    Hybrids are certainly the best option right now, but the future will be electricity. Considering Musk's electric cars are so much better in terms of range than others (200+ miles compared to 60 I think?) once everyone gets their hands on the designs, we may finally see affordable and practical electrical cars. Infrastructure will have to change too but since Britain's hasn't changed in hundreds of years I think we'll be alright.
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    As soon as the UK infrastructure for electric cars becomes viable then I'd never touch a Petrol/Diesel again. I'm not realistically expecting that to happen any time before 2030 though. Hopefully by that time the car won't have a steering wheel either.
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    Definitely. As they become more widespread, all the current negatives will soon fade away and technology improves. Just waiting for electric cars to meet the mass market.

    Almost feels as far away as driver less cars though.
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    (Original post by Tubbz)
    Electric cars are certainly becoming more viable, the cost of "fueling" is certainly a bonus, with it being something like £5 to fully charge.

    I'd buy a new one, but there's no second hand market for them unfortunately due to the longevity of the battery and then cost of replacing.
    Tesla have an 8 year warranty on the battery and iirc expect about 30% efficiency drop in that time with most of the drop in the later years.

    So a 2 or 3 year old Tesla could be ok, but might be hard to sell on afterwards. That said any 7 or 8 year old executive-class car is pretty much worthless whether conventional or electric.

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    this is to die for:

    https://static.wixstatic.com/media/9...840_s_4_2.webp
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Tesla have an 8 year warranty on the battery and iirc expect about 30% efficiency drop in that time with most of the drop in the later years.

    So a 2 or 3 year old Tesla could be ok, but might be hard to sell on afterwards. That said any 7 or 8 year old executive-class car is pretty much worthless whether conventional or electric.

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    Eh I'll wait either way, there's a study being done currently on interchangeable standardised battery packs so that the entire floor plan isn't a battery pack and you don't have the charging wait time, you pull up take your battery pack out and slide a new one in.

    I expect Tesla will also likely see many of the cars bought on hire purchase deals and handed back so that they don't have to worry too much about the battery state and can monitor the in service life more closely.
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    Other than UK not having many Tesla charging stations at all, they are so much more beneficial in practically every way compared to ICE cars. I'd love to save the £40 every month on petrol as a student who goes to school every day. Tesla offering free charging to people who buy a Model X just seems insane. Imagine not even having to pay to run your car. You can just get in it, go however far you like, without a care in the world. As someone who's tight on money, I find myself constantly worrying about going out in my car too much in fear of having to pay for more petrol.

    If councils across the UK install more charging stations then I think they'd definitely be a lot more popular, and we'd be saving the environment a hell of a lot. I'd get an electric car hands down. By the time I can afford one, I'm sure the range of them will be improved anyway, so that's not a huge deal.
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    At the current moment in time, I'd be more inclined to buy a hybrid due to the lack of points to charge
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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    hard to sell on afterwards.
    See:

    https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-one-year-old/

    It was in The Times also but behind a paywall.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    See:

    https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-one-year-old/

    It was in The Times also but behind a paywall.
    Interesting!
    More here too: https://www.fleetpoint.org/top-news/...-rising-value/

    Meanwhile there's a low mileage 3yo Tesla S 75D for £39k (£70k ish new) on auto trader (sounds like an accident repair but that *might* be ok...)
    https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201801192919608?radius=1500&make =TESLA&advertising-location=at_cars&model=MODEL%20S &onesearchad=Used&sort=price-asc&page=1

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    (Original post by Doonesbury)
    Interesting!
    I have a strange story to tell. We bought my wife a Prius in October. It had been registered in late March (so VED is permanently free) and had 3 miles on the clock. naturally, I found that difficult to believe so had to enquire closely.

    A dealer staff member had bought it for his daughter on a special scheme and she wanted it in red, not dark grey, and refused to accept it. So he left it at the dealership until unsold stock came in that she liked at which point he could offload it (to us) and replace it for her. We paid £22k for a car listed at £27.2k that was actually six months old but literally never driven, other than off the delivery lorry. Of all the similar cars on the market at the time nationwide it had the best mileage/price combination by about £1,000.

    When I went to see and collect it the tyres still had the chalk marks on them and it still smelled new - and the warranty still had 54 months to run.

    It now has 3,700 miles on the clock and is eleven months old.
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    Define: "Ever"! I'm an electrical engineer [MSEE]. The current state of battery technology [and the state of it for the last 40 years or so], is such that it is not possible to store nearly an equivalent amount of energy in the vehicle with batteries, as is stored with liquid fuel. In addition, generating all that energy at a commercial power plant produces nearly the same amount of 'pollution' as is generated by a fossil fuel burning vehicle. You have to add to that the 'transmission losses' in transferring the energy from the commercial power plant to the consumer's home, and also add the 'storage losses' caused by the fact that all of the energy 'charged' into the battery pack is not recoverable [you put it in, but can't get it back out]. The transmission losses for commercial power are about 50%. A commercial power plant operates at about 85% to 90% efficiency. Storage losses for lithium ion batteries, is about 20% to 25% the last i heard. See:
    https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...harging-losses When you add this to the 50% loss due to transmission, and the 90% efficiency of the initial power plant, you quickly 'fall behind the power curve' as engineers would say. You also have the additional problem that, in many areas [in the US and elsewhere i would suspect], the 'power grid' can barely keep up with summertime demands due to air conditioning.

    Consider a daily commute where the commuter burns about 15 gallons a week. This is 3 gal/day. 1 US gallon contains 115,000 BTU/gal, which is equivalent to 33.703 KWh. If we require a 4 hr charge [not unreasonable], simple math(s) reveals that - for a 220 volt charge circuit [available in US homes], The equiv of the energy used [for 3 gal] is 101.109 KWh. This would require a draw of 114.89 amps on a 220v charge circuit. The magnitude of this is shown by the fact that most single family "modern" houses here have "200 amp" service - that is 200 amps at 220v. It is also shown by the fact that my home [3 bedroom, 1.5 bath, with a 1 car garage, draws about 1.2 kW steady state total power consumption - with electric heat - when the outside temperature is 40 deg F, and the inside is 55 deg F. You are talking about roughly a 20:1 increase in average power draw for each house. The power grid cannot accept this load. Nor do we have the generating capacity to support it.

    One way to circumvent this problem, would be to go to on board nuclear piles to generate power - something like a 'high powered' "SNAP". I fear that these are a number of years off, however. You also have the problem that saying the word "nuclear" within earshot of a 'greenie' would start an immediate riot. Cheers.
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    (Original post by Rabbit2)
    Define: "Ever"! I'm an electrical engineer [MSEE]. The current state of battery technology [and the state of it for the last 40 years or so], is such that it is not possible to store nearly an equivalent amount of energy in the vehicle with batteries, as is stored with liquid fuel. In addition, generating all that energy at a commercial power plant produces nearly the same amount of 'pollution' as is generated by a fossil fuel burning vehicle. You have to add to that the 'transmission losses' in transferring the energy from the commercial power plant to the consumer's home, and also add the 'storage losses' caused by the fact that all of the energy 'charged' into the battery pack is not recoverable [you put it in, but can't get it back out]. The transmission losses for commercial power are about 50%. A commercial power plant operates at about 85% to 90% efficiency. Storage losses for lithium ion batteries, is about 20% to 25% the last i heard. See:
    https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...harging-losses When you add this to the 50% loss due to transmission, and the 90% efficiency of the initial power plant, you quickly 'fall behind the power curve' as engineers would say. You also have the additional problem that, in many areas [in the US and elsewhere i would suspect], the 'power grid' can barely keep up with summertime demands due to air conditioning.

    Consider a daily commute where the commuter burns about 15 gallons a week. This is 3 gal/day. 1 US gallon contains 115,000 BTU/gal, which is equivalent to 33.703 KWh. If we require a 4 hr charge [not unreasonable], simple math(s) reveals that - for a 220 volt charge circuit [available in US homes], The equiv of the energy used [for 3 gal] is 101.109 KWh. This would require a draw of 114.89 amps on a 220v charge circuit. The magnitude of this is shown by the fact that most single family "modern" houses here have "200 amp" service - that is 200 amps at 220v. It is also shown by the fact that my home [3 bedroom, 1.5 bath, with a 1 car garage, draws about 1.2 kW steady state total power consumption - with electric heat - when the outside temperature is 40 deg F, and the inside is 55 deg F. You are talking about roughly a 20:1 increase in average power draw for each house. The power grid cannot accept this load. Nor do we have the generating capacity to support it.

    One way to circumvent this problem, would be to go to on board nuclear piles to generate power - something like a 'high powered' "SNAP". I fear that these are a number of years off, however. You also have the problem that saying the word "nuclear" within earshot of a 'greenie' would start an immediate riot. Cheers.
    You make some good points, but I think your charging calculations are a little flawed in assuming that they would need to provide as much energy as petrol. For a start, an ICE only has an efficiency of 20-40%, which is far worse than a motor/battery combination. Additionally, most commuting is in traffic, where electric cars offer additional efficiencies over ICE. Also transmission losses of 50% seems very high - it's not an area I claim any expertise in, but I would be very surprised if they were really that high. There is, of course, also some benefit in moving the burning of fuels to extra-urban power stations rather than in cars from an air pollution point of view.
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    (Original post by CurlyBen)
    You make some good points, but I think your charging calculations are a little flawed in assuming that they would need to provide as much energy as petrol. For a start, an ICE only has an efficiency of 20-40%, which is far worse than a motor/battery combination. Additionally, most commuting is in traffic, where electric cars offer additional efficiencies over ICE. Also transmission losses of 50% seems very high - it's not an area I claim any expertise in, but I would be very surprised if they were really that high. There is, of course, also some benefit in moving the burning of fuels to extra-urban power stations rather than in cars from an air pollution point of view.
    Not to mention that fuel has transmission losses. Transporting fuel from the refinery to the pump requires a fuel tanker, and those run on... even more fuel.

    Engines are likely to see a big jump in efficiency though. Mercedes' current F1 engine claims over 50% efficiency, a record for a petrol engine. Mazda's HCCI and Koenigsegg's Freevalve both have working prototypes, and each one could boost efficiency by about 30% (not sure what happens if you try to use both technologies on the same engine). These are very interesting times...
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    (Original post by Rabbit2)
    You also have the additional problem that, in many areas [in the US and elsewhere i would suspect], the 'power grid' can barely keep up with summertime demands due to air conditioning..
    UK isn't the US. Electricity demand is significantly lower in the summer here. And night time demand has significant spare capacity.



    Also, charging a Tesla in the UK at home costs about 3p per mile (range 200+ miles), vs a cost of about 15p per mile for a petrol car (£1.19 per litre, 55 litre tank, range 450 miles).

    Oh, and electric cars are indeed "greener" than petrol/diesel.
    https://www.theguardian.com/football...-electric-cars
    and
    https://www.ft.com/content/a22ff86e-...b-4a9c83ffa852
    A full-size (eg Tesla) electric car has a lifecycle reduction of 53% emissions vs a petrol car.

    Spoiler:
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    In their current state? No. Not unless I manage to pull funds out of my ass for a Tesla. If I'm buying an affordable electric car, putting all my other concerns aside for a moment, I want something from someone who knows their sh*t... As long as Tesla is pumping out cars above that affordable range, my eyes are on Toyota, Lexus (Okay, not exactly the most affordable, but generally more affordable than a Tesla) and Mitsubishi... ICE reliability means nothing in the world of electric cars. Mitsubishi has it's hands everywhere, including the manufacturing of electric MHE. Toyota is a similar story, they've been making electric MHE for years, electric vehicles are very familiar ground. As for Lexus? A division of Toyota, speaks for itself.
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    (Original post by CurlyBen)
    You make some good points, but I think your charging calculations are a little flawed in assuming that they would need to provide as much energy as petrol. For a start, an ICE only has an efficiency of 20-40%, which is far worse than a motor/battery combination. Additionally, most commuting is in traffic, where electric cars offer additional efficiencies over ICE. Also transmission losses of 50% seems very high - it's not an area I claim any expertise in, but I would be very surprised if they were really that high. There is, of course, also some benefit in moving the burning of fuels to extra-urban power stations rather than in cars from an air pollution point of view.
    If you take a peek at:
    https://blog.schneider-electric.com/...r-line-losses/ They claim that transmission losses are 8 to 15%. The thermal cycle efficiency (Carnot cycle) efficiency they claim is about 35% for a typical power plant. This is the conversion loss between the pile of coal and the wires. If you 'convolve' the two together, I make it that you'd have something like 20% to 28% overall efficiency from coal to wires (at the consumer). So actually, it's worse than 50% (from coal to consumer). No??? Cheers.
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    It's definitely something I would consider if I were in the market for a new car. I think things need to change a little more before it would be a viable option though (assuming I had money to start with). Right now they're a bit too unreliable in terms of knowing there'll be a charging point when you need one and where things are moving. I wouldn't want to commit to one of the current ones just before they bring out a better one and I definitely wouldn't want to get stranded cos the only charging point for x miles is out of order. Hybrids with electric and petrol do seem like a good option right now if you're after an electric car.
    Main thing for me though is that I'm not in a position to be getting a car what with the not driving and not having any money thing.
 
 
 
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