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Man complains that British Army recruitment stall featured soldiers with, er, guns watch

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    Oh bless him :lol:


    A man from Irvine in Scotland has criticised the MoD after British Army troops from the Scots Guards set up in the town centre with guns.
    Yes, you read that correctly, soldiers had guns.
    Campaigner and Ayrshire CND secretary Arthur West was quoted in a local paper, the Irvine Times, as saying:
    “The stall was a recruitment stall and as well as leaflets it had four machine guns pointing into a pedestrian shopping area. I was really quite disturbed by what I saw. I’ll not say the guns were loaded but they were pointing out on to the street and I just think that’s unacceptable.
    If they’re going to try and recruit in areas they should do it responsibility, they should be handing out leaflets in a reasonable way, I was quite shocked. I have seen this in a few places. I was in Kilmarnock about a year ago, and also in Glasgow.
    I’ve already got worries anyway that they seem to concentrate on schools and areas that have high unemployment. We had reports last week that areas of Irvine have a third of child poverty, and suffered down the years from a lot of job losses as well. There does seem to be a link about the army giving a high profile to recruitment in areas where there is high unemployment and low income, and if they’re going to do that they need to do that responsibly.
    I just think it’s really distasteful and if they’re going to recruit they should be doing it in a balanced way. I just think it’s totally inappropriate. The time in Kilmarnock, I think the soldiers that were there were a bit embarrassed about it, there wasn’t any dust up, but I went and spoke to them and think they felt a bit awkward about it.
    They were just doing their job and as people know the army is very hierarchical and you do as you’re told, so I did think it would be a bit unfair to have a go at the people that were there on the day. There were four soldiers and they were all quite young. I made a formal complaint but would be interested to see any response.”
    A spokesperson for the British Army said:
    “The display weapons were under the control of professional soldiers who apply the highest standard of weapon discipline. At no point where they pointed at members of the public and no ammunition was present during this event.”
    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/man-...ns/?no_cache=1
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    He's right, soldiers pointing guns towards a pedestrian shopping centre really isn't a very clever idea, which is the point he's making.

    "...as well as leaflets it had four machine guns pointing into a pedestrian shopping area. I was really quite disturbed by what I saw. I’ll not say the guns were loaded but they were pointing out on to the street and I just think that’s unacceptable."

    He also made a good point about the army specifically targeting poverty ridden, low income areas.
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    (Original post by Zargabaath)
    He's right, soldiers pointing guns towards a pedestrian shopping centre really isn't a very clever idea, which is the point he's making.

    "...as well as leaflets it had four machine guns pointing into a pedestrian shopping area. I was really quite disturbed by what I saw. I’ll not say the guns were loaded but they were pointing out on to the street and I just think that’s unacceptable."

    He also made a good point about the army specifically targeting poverty ridden, low income areas.
    I feel obliged to point out that due to the way these weapons are carried unless the soldiers remain stock still or simply bury the items in the ground then theyre going to point somewhere.
    I'm curious if he would have an issue with police officers carrying guns in public as well?
    Yes but this has been express army policy for many years - indeed it is seen as a way to elevate people out of the poverty trap.
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    (Original post by Napp)
    I feel obliged to point out that due to the way these weapons are carried unless the soldiers remain stock still or simply bury the items in the ground then theyre going to point somewhere.
    Yes but this has been express army policy for many years - indeed it is seen as a way to elevate people out of the poverty trap.
    I also feel obliged to point out it's basic gun discipline not to point the gun at something you're not trying to kill. Loaded or not. Out of every direction they can be pointed at, the one with a shopping centre is the least appropriate. Even the NRA, the biggest organisation of gun nuts on the planet, stress this.

    If nothing else, it makes our armed forces look undisciplined.

    (Original post by Napp)
    I'm curious if he would have an issue with police officers carrying guns in public as well?
    I'm pretty sure he would, if they weren't currently on an operation. Even then, they still shouldn't be pointing weapons at a pedestrianised area.

    (Original post by Napp)
    Yes but this has been express army policy for many years - indeed it is seen as a way to elevate people out of the poverty trap.
    It being an army policy isn't an argument against the exploitative nature of it. Preying on poor people with a trumped up and misguided sense of nationalism into putting their lives on the line for interests that often go against their own is certainly something to complain about.
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    Let's face it. Everyone knows this is nonsense. It's just attention-seeking.
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    (Original post by Zargabaath)
    I also feel obliged to point out it's basic gun discipline not to point the gun at something you're not trying to kill. Loaded or not. Out of every direction they can be pointed at, the one with a shopping centre is the least appropriate. Even the NRA, the biggest organisation of gun nuts on the planet, stress this.
    I feel you're missing the point of a demonstration here.
    If nothing else, it makes our armed forces look undisciplined.
    And them running riot in the local boozer doesnt?

    I'm pretty sure he would, if they weren't currently on an operation. Even then, they still shouldn't be pointing weapons at a pedestrianised area.
    Have you got a better way to show their guns off? also you seem to be ignoring the basic fact that this happens all the time, idly holding your weapon is not quite the same as aiming it at someone [something which would be unacceptable]

    It being an army policy isn't an argument against the exploitative nature of it. Preying on poor people with a trumped up and misguided sense of nationalism into putting their lives on the line for interests that often go against their own is certainly something to complain about.
    I feel you should be blaming the government in this instance, not the armed forces. At any rate whilst i take a dim view on our armed forces i am inclined to disagree hole heartedly here - whether you like it or not the army does offer people who come from disadvantaged back grounds a way out. The army never discharged someone who was illiterate after all.
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    I guess pointing the guns at a pedestrians is similar to what the british army has done in recent years. killing innocent people.

    Accuracy is important.
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    (Original post by Caesar333)
    I guess pointing the guns at a pedestrians is similar to what the british army has done in recent years. killing innocent people.

    Accuracy is important.
    Colateral damage has been the lowest ever in the last decade.
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    (Original post by Napp)
    I feel you're missing the point of a demonstration here.
    I'm not, I understand they're showing off their shiny weapons. It's something people haven't seen before, guns are cool. I get it. It draws crowds. The thing is, they shouldn't be pointed at the public. Tbh I don't think they should be armed on UK soil at all unless they're on operation or training.

    (Original post by Napp)
    And them running riot in the local boozer doesnt?
    I've never once implied it does. That's not the discussion here.

    (Original post by Napp)
    Have you got a better way to show their guns off? also you seem to be ignoring the basic fact that this happens all the time, idly holding your weapon is not quite the same as aiming it at someone [something which would be unacceptable]
    Idly holding your weapon and pointing it, even accidentally, especially accidentally, at someone IS the issue. Every civilised military drills this into their soldiers. Anyone holding a gun is supposed to be conscious of it all the times and to act like it's loaded. Look at pictures of soldiers holding guns while not in combat. They're always either pointing the muzzle at the sky or ground.

    The lack of attention is the discipline problem I'm highlighting. If this happens all the time, it's even worse. One incident makes the armed forces look bad, multiple instances give us a reputation of undisciplined soldiers on the world stage.

    (Original post by Napp)
    I feel you should be blaming the government in this instance, not the armed forces. At any rate whilst i take a dim view on our armed forces i am inclined to disagree hole heartedly here - whether you like it or not the army does offer people who come from disadvantaged back grounds a way out. The army never discharged someone who was illiterate after all.
    The ministry of defence are an extension of the government.

    And I'm not sure about that first claim. I've not seen any evidence that it does offer people a way out of poverty. It seems to me, that it offers temporary employment, then dumps people back, maladjusted to civilian life. How many vets need to use food banks? How many vets are homeless? How many vets struggle to find post military work due to mental or physical disability following their service?

    And I actually do like our armed forces, I'm not criticising out of spite.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    Colateral damage has been the lowest ever in the last decade.
    Tell that to the 1/2 million dead iraqis.
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    (Original post by Caesar333)
    Tell that to the 1/2 million dead iraqis.

    The Iraq war was horrific and fought not because it would make anything better but the political elites wanted revenge on Saddam Hussein.

    But in the context of war, soldiers and terrorists can't be regarded as civillians; and it was mostly the USA. The scale was tragic but still less than Vietnam.
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    Firstly, the idea that they are targeting impoverished areas is a bad thing, is just ridiculous.

    An employer, that provides decent opportunities, pays well, offers subsidised housing, and training on the job, as well as lots of other opportunities...

    targeting the poor?? How awful. That's exactly what they don't need! More employers offering them chances to earn, train and improve their lives. Its terribly exploitative.

    --

    As for their guns, its their single biggest draw. I've been to lots of events where they are recruiting, and they normally have a few cool guns sat on a table that the little boys can come up and play around with. It always draws in a fair few people, and I have never seen anyone running scared shouting that there are people with guns about to kill people! - the guns are also not loaded, and are always supervised. The vast majority of us trust our trained armed services personal, and don't fear them shooting us.

    Its just pathetic winging here.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    The Iraq war was horrific and fought not because it would make anything better but the political elites wanted revenge on Saddam Hussein.

    But in the context of war, soldiers and terrorists can't be regarded as civillians; and it was mostly the USA. The scale was tragic but still less than Vietnam.
    This looks like an excuse.
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    (Original post by Caesar333)
    This looks like an excuse.
    It's a fact.
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    Why did they need to bring weapons? They arent toys. Did they expect to need them?
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    (Original post by bob072)
    It's a fact.
    Wrong.
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Why did they need to bring weapons? They arent toys. Did they expect to need them?
    do you really need to ask this?

    Young boys like guns.
    want boys to be interested in the army?
    Bring guns.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    do you really need to ask this?

    Young boys like guns.
    want boys to be interested in the army?
    Bring guns.
    /thread

    It's actually surprising they don't have replica or deactivated guns for these kind of things tbh (or maybe they do/did, an the guy who complained has even less to moan about)
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    (Original post by AshleyBlackwater)
    /thread

    It's actually surprising they don't have replica or deactivated guns for these kind of things tbh (or maybe they do/did, an the guy who complained has even less to moan about)
    I would imagine they're made safe either by deactivation (as was common at school) or by removing the bolt/firing pin to make them a dud. I recall going to see the naval review several yeRs ago and being able to handle shotguns/pistols/assault rifles on board the ship which we could do as we pleased with but we're obviously unusable. Even the army isn't stupid enough to give live weapons to strangers aha
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    do you really need to ask this?

    Young boys like guns.
    want boys to be interested in the army?
    Bring guns.
    If the only reason people want to join the army is to use guns and kill people they shouldn't be allowed to join the army
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