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    (Original post by Snufkin)
    Not sure why Einstein accepting an invitation from a friend to talk at Nottingham (before it was even a university) almost 90 years ago is relevant, but that little piece of trivia does nothing to refute the excellent points Doonesbury has made. :dong:

    This is not a debate, if it were one you would have answered my question. I asked you four hours ago for some (any!) evidence to support your assertion that the OU is not as good as RG universities, unsurprisingly you never replied... I wonder why?



    Not at all, he patently is not that - but if you're going to criticise someone, do it without being rude. :yy:
    I did reply you choose to deflect, the primary basis of my argument is simply employability!

    A Russell group degree has higher earnings attached to it!

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n...-salaries.html

    source: times higher "Those with the lowest post-graduation employment rates include the Open University (84.9 per cent),"

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com...loyment-charts
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    (Original post by Notoriety)
    If you see my post, I don't disagree with your conclusion. Just your premises, which again seem to be dispelling your own doubts rather than elucidating objectively the quality of OU. Consider it as lady doth protest too much; you are protesting significantly, and to what end? To make yourself feel better or to help other users? When you also consider the weakness of your contentions, notably that a lecturer who has known you for a few weeks thinks you'd stand a chance at Durham, it points towards the former.

    Well, why's that bad? It weakens the entirety of your point in the eyes of other posters. I for one do not want realitysreflect, an eminently intellectual poster (as Snufkin would have me say), look like he is on the winning side. He's not; he's completely wrong about most things, and about the OU particularly. Notwithstanding the weakness/clutching-at-straws quality of several of your points.
    You are missing the point about the lecturer entirely. My point was that one of the best institutions for my discipline welcomes OU graduates (The OU being a mid-table university and Durham being #1 for English). This has no relativity to the capability of me or any of my peers. The duration of time I have been in contact with my tutor, once again, holds no relation. It was simply an observation backed up by some useful information. Both tutors radiated the same message that we should not be deterred or intimidated by the reputation.

    I regurgitate 90% of my posts to users on this website. I use the same data and responses because people generally ask the same question. I simply point out the obvious, link a few leaderboards and cite some statistics. Why would anyone study a degree they are not completely sure carries any weight at all?

    The conversation rapidly deteriorated, I simply state pure facts. The Open University is indeed a university sitting comfortably in the middle of the TES 2018 leaderboards. Russell Group universities widely accept OU graduates for MA courses. The Open University has 70% (3*)/(4*) ratings from the national framework for research. I am not citing any of this to prove a point, or to consolidate in my own mind that my decision is viable and legitimate.

    I can appreciate your point of view, I think conclusively, we share the same opinion and idea on the matter. I am simply defending my stance and my opinion albeit I can see why you perceive me pandering to my conscience. I just find it hilarious how narrowminded individuals (who managed to get into RG schools) cant comprehend data and basic statistics.

    Once again, the lecturer has a bias and knows about the university he lectures in. He simply stated that we should not rule top-tier universities out for MA application. I intend on applying to Liverpool for my MA.
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    (Original post by Realitysreflexx)
    im not sure im very confident in the validity of your above claim....

    you have friends that are researchers at leading universities and now are on the TSR to tell me they cannot spell....odd lol.
    My supervisor is a world-leading researcher in Sanskrit and Indian philosophy - his spelling can be terrible.
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    (Original post by Realitysreflexx)
    I did reply you choose to deflect, the primary basis of my argument is simply employability!

    A Russell group degree has higher earnings attached to it!

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n...-salaries.html

    source: times higher "Those with the lowest post-graduation employment rates include the Open University (84.9 per cent),"

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com...loyment-charts
    Does that statistic take into account that almost 70% of OU students are already in full-time employment?
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    (Original post by Realitysreflexx)
    I did reply you choose to deflect, the primary basis of my argument is simply employability!

    A Russell group degree has higher earnings attached to it!

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n...-salaries.html

    source: times higher "Those with the lowest post-graduation employment rates include the Open University (84.9 per cent),"

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com...loyment-charts
    No, you didn't reply. Neither of those articles have anything to do with what you originally said: "[the OU] isn't as highly regarded as a Russell Group [university]" - so again I ask for proof, how do you know what employers think of the OU? And why haven't you addressed the points raised in Doonesbury's post?
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    (Original post by Phillip Banks)
    You are missing the point about the lecturer entirely. My point was that one of the best institutions for my discipline welcomes OU graduates (The OU being a mid-table university and Durham being #1 for English). This has no relativity to the capability of me or any of my peers. The duration of time I have been in contact with my tutor, once again, holds no relation. It was simply an observation backed up by some useful information. Both tutors radiated the same message that we should not be deterred or intimidated by the reputation.

    I regurgitate 90% of my posts to users on this website. I use the same data and responses because people generally ask the same question. I simply point out the obvious, link a few leaderboards and cite some statistics. Why would anyone study a degree they are not completely sure carries any weight at all?

    The conversation rapidly deteriorated, I simply state pure facts. The Open University is indeed a university sitting comfortably in the middle of the TES 2018 leaderboards. Russell Group universities widely accept OU graduates for MA courses. The Open University has 70% (3*)/(4*) ratings from the national framework for research. I am not citing any of this to prove a point, or to consolidate in my own mind that my decision is viable and legitimate.

    I can appreciate your point of view, I think conclusively, we share the same opinion and idea on the matter. I am simply defending my stance and my opinion albeit I can see why you perceive me pandering to my conscience. I just find it hilarious how narrowminded individuals (who managed to get into RG schools) cant comprehend data and basic statistics.

    Once again, the lecturer has a bias and knows about the university he lectures in. He simply stated that we should not rule top-tier universities out for MA application. I intend on applying to Liverpool for my MA.
    OK. "I just find it hilarious how narrowminded individuals (who managed to get into RG schools) cant comprehend data and basic statistics."—this is supposed to demonstrate you don't have an issue with RG, and by extension your own education relative to RG graduates? Does not seem likely.

    The stats you are providing. I have already stated I agree with your overarching conclusion. You're preaching to the choir, which is rather pointless. There is no point of furthering this conversation, as it is already repetitive.
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    (Original post by Snufkin)
    No, you didn't reply. Neither of those articles have anything to do with what you originally said: "[the OU] isn't as highly regarded as a Russell Group [university]" - so again I ask for proof, how do you know what employers think of the OU? And why haven't you addressed the points raised in Doonesbury's post?

    Im starting to understand why you never finished that OU degree tbf.
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    (Original post by Notoriety)
    OK. "I just find it hilarious how narrowminded individuals (who managed to get into RG schools) cant comprehend data and basic statistics."—this is supposed to demonstrate you don't have an issue with RG, and by extension your own education relative to RG graduates? Does not seem likely.

    The stats you are providing. I have already stated I agree with your overarching conclusion. You're preaching to the choir, which is rather pointless. There is no point of furthering this conversation, as it is already repetitive.
    I don't think that RG really carries any weight. 4* Frameworks are delightful but some ex-poly's have decent framework ratings. I am basing my mentioned quotation on the premise that according to TSR, the RG label carries some significance. I am making a simple observation, on that premise, that I find it mildly amusing how certain members who attend RG institutions struggle with simple sentence structure, composure, and capitalization. I find it highly amusing. It carries not relativity to my opinion or philosophy on the matter.

    My Philosophy is that if a Russell Group is struggling to compete with framework ratings of mediocre universities, they really don't deserve the title. Hence why I don't credit RGs with much aside from a fancy label.
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    I go to (and work for) an RG institution and honestly, I couldn't give two hoots about the label and I don't think anyone else in the dept. does either. Just an nice marketing thing for the VC to cream more money with.

    I didn't even choose it based on RG standing, ha.
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    (Original post by Phillip Banks)
    Does that statistic take into account that almost 70% of OU students are already in full-time employment?
    70 percent isnt a very great statistic, even an OU student should know that lol......

    I mean its not a bad uni, i guess,

    but its an online course, that comes with a stigma, just like Birkbeck which is a night school that comes with a stigma, england isnt exactly class unaware, the instuition is simply not synonymous with any sort of elite or prestige. Employers know it, i know it, you know it, its like any other run of the mill BCC instuition, they provide a level of qualification.

    But you cant honestly sit here and think the same amount of planning and preparation and depth of material goes into your course vs the same course at my instuition, with frameworks matching it to similarily ranked instuitions of global caliber and storied history.
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    (Original post by Phillip Banks)
    I don't think that RG really carries any weight. 4* Frameworks are delightful but some ex-poly's have decent framework ratings. I am basing my mentioned quotation on the premise that according to TSR, the RG label carries some significance. I am making a simple observation, on that premise, that I find it mildly amusing how certain members who attend RG institutions struggle with simple sentence structure, composure, and capitalization. I find it highly amusing. It carries not relativity to my opinion or philosophy on the matter.

    My Philosophy is that if a Russell Group is struggling to compete with framework ratings of mediocre universities, they really don't deserve the title. Hence why I don't credit RGs with much aside from a fancy label.
    Again, I agree with you. I don't know how to tell you any more firmly.
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    (Original post by gjd800)
    I go to (and work for) an RG institution and honestly, I couldn't give two hoots about the label and I don't think anyone else in the dept. does either. Just an nice marketing thing for the VC to cream more money with.

    I didn't even choose it based on RG standing, ha.
    Then go across the road to which ever uni is in your town, be it leeds trinity, be it nottingham trent, be it sheffield hallam.......

    (obviously i dont know which one you are at)

    but we both know the answer to that question lol.
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    This thread quickly became a showcase of the fatuity of arguing with people who begin from a place of ignorance. There is so much wrong with so many things that have been posted in this thread that I'm not going to take the time to address them individually. I also do not want any particular person(s) to feel like I am singling them out. So instead:

    1) The OU's degree courses are externally moderated by academics from other universities in the same way that those at most other institutions are, so you can assume a generally comparable level of quality to most other universities. Obviously there are difficulties with resources, which does lead to a more pronounced difference in the sciences, but issues with access to quality practical experience are not unique to the OU.

    2) OU graduates are routinely accepted onto postgraduate courses at universities for which admission is typically very competitive. This includes Durham. It also includes both Oxford and Cambridge, though certainly less routinely. You will find that there are quite a number of academics at RG universities who view applications from those with OU degrees favourably because those students have tended to adapt very well to the demands of postgraduate life. This is obviously anecdotal and limited only to the academics I personally know or have had occasion to discuss admissions with, who could be outliers. Whatever the case, you can find OU graduates undertaking postgraduate courses at just about all of our top universities.

    3) The OU has a lower absolute rate of graduate employment because it naturally attracts housewives, single mums, those who are retired and people with illnesses and disabilities which impede their ability to access the workplace. I would expect anyone with the benefit of a quality education to not accept statistics without considering what exactly influences their expression.

    4) As somebody who has attended several universities and has significant professional experience, much of which has been in positions which required I be involved in recruitment decisions for both SMEs and large corporations, I think that people enormously overestimate the importance of your awarding institution. I can only recall encountering a couple of people who cared at all, and they were only impressed by Oxbridge. Businesses care only about what value you will add to them. If you are very early in your career then a brand name might get you to the interview stage, but that is typically it. Again, I can only speak from experience in the sectors I know but it seems to be in line with what other people report.

    5) Some people will think the OU is not a 'real' degree. Some people will think business studies is not a 'real' subject. Some people will hire a young attractive applicant they fancy because they like the way they look. Uninformed and ignorant people make uninformed and ignorant decisions. They are in the minority and you shouldn't plan your life according to their nonsense because you don't want to work for them anyway.

    6) There are obvious advantages and disadvantages to studying with the OU. It is not for everyone; it is not always going to be a good option, let alone the best option. It exists to provide access to education for people who desire a different medium of delivery. OU students read books, write essays, take exams, have to navigate the whims of tutors, get frustrated with referencing and most of the various things that other students do. For those of us who have never had any need for the OU, that's fine - hopefully the education received has met their expectations and they are happy. For those of us who have needed to use it, I hope exactly the same thing.

    Life is short. Let's try not to spend it insulting each other for the choices we make in our own lives.
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    (Original post by Realitysreflexx)
    Then go across the road to which ever uni is in your town, be it leeds trinity, be it nottingham trent, be it sheffield hallam.......

    (obviously i dont know which one you are at)

    but we both know the answer to that question lol.
    If my supervisor worked at any of those institutions, I'd have gone there instead. So there's your answer to that 'question'.
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    (Original post by Realitysreflexx)
    Then go across the road to which ever uni is in your town, be it leeds trinity, be it nottingham trent, be it sheffield hallam.......

    (obviously i dont know which one you are at)

    but we both know the answer to that question lol.
    That poster is on for a PhD. He will go where they have a research interest in his chosen topic, and where he will get funding.

    For my research interest, there are about 4/5 unis which have world-leading specialists in it and one of them is at Swansea. I would have to choose Swansea Law over Durham Law PhD-wise.
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    (Original post by Balor)
    This thread quickly became a showcase of the fatuity of arguing with people who begin from a place of ignorance. There is so much wrong with so many things that have been posted in this thread that I'm not going to take the time to address them individually. I also do not want any particular person(s) to feel like I am singling them out. So instead:

    1) The OU's degree courses are externally moderated by academics from other universities in the same way that those at most other institutions are, so you can assume a generally comparable level of quality to most other universities. Obviously there are difficulties with resources, which does lead to a more pronounced difference in the sciences, but issues with access to quality practical experience are not unique to the OU.

    2) OU graduates are routinely accepted onto postgraduate courses at universities for which admission is typically very competitive. This includes Durham. It also includes both Oxford and Cambridge, though certainly less routinely. You will find that there are quite a number of academics at RG universities who view applications from those with OU degrees favourably because those students have tended to adapt very well to the demands of postgraduate life. This is obviously anecdotal and limited only to the academics I personally know or have had occasion to discuss admissions with, who could be outliers. Whatever the case, you can find OU graduates undertaking postgraduate courses at just about all of our top universities.

    3) The OU has a lower absolute rate of graduate employment because it naturally attracts housewives, single mums, those who are retired and people with illnesses and disabilities which impede their ability to access the workplace. I would expect anyone with the benefit of a quality education to not accept statistics without considering what exactly influences their expression.

    4) As somebody who has attended several universities and has significant professional experience, much of which has been in positions which required I be involved in recruitment decisions for both SMEs and large corporations, I think that people enormously overestimate the importance of your awarding institution. I can only recall encountering a couple of people who cared at all, and they were only impressed by Oxbridge. Businesses care only about what value you will add to them. If you are very early in your career then a brand name might get you to the interview stage, but that is typically it. Again, I can only speak from experience in the sectors I know but it seems to be in line with what other people report.

    5) Some people will think the OU is not a 'real' degree. Some people will think business studies is not a 'real' subject. Some people will hire a young attractive applicant they fancy because they like the way they look. Uninformed and ignorant people make uninformed and ignorant decisions. They are in the minority and you shouldn't plan your life according to their nonsense because you don't want to work for them anyway.

    6) There are obvious advantages and disadvantages to studying with the OU. It is not for everyone; it is not always going to be a good option, let alone the best option. It exists to provide access to education for people who desire a different medium of delivery. OU students read books, write essays, take exams, have to navigate the whims of tutors, get frustrated with referencing and most of the various things that other students do. For those of us who have never had any need for the OU, that's fine - hopefully the education received has met their expectations and they are happy. For those of us who have needed to use it, I hope exactly the same thing.

    Life is short. Let's try not to spend it insulting each other for the choices we make in our own lives.
    points 1-3 sure, once again not bringing anything new to the discussion here,

    lack of resources
    houseswives all excuses for a lower tier university

    4 what i have always preached, OU and such unis are not for large prestigious jobs, they feed SME and keep them full of graduates

    5 - no one has ever stated that

    6- lower tier uni, i respect and salute, we all know the difference in degree quality but we dont discuss, graduate prospects however do, thanks for affirming we live in a fair society, but lets be real.

    This is a mild discussion, no one here feels insulted. At least i dont.

    Unless you are part of an OU lobbying group why would you....
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    (Original post by Balor)
    This thread quickly became a showcase of the fatuity of arguing with people who begin from a place of ignorance. There is so much wrong with so many things that have been posted in this thread that I'm not going to take the time to address them individually. I also do not want any particular person(s) to feel like I am singling them out. So instead:

    1) The OU's degree courses are externally moderated by academics from other universities in the same way that those at most other institutions are, so you can assume a generally comparable level of quality to most other universities. Obviously there are difficulties with resources, which does lead to a more pronounced difference in the sciences, but issues with access to quality practical experience are not unique to the OU.

    2) OU graduates are routinely accepted onto postgraduate courses at universities for which admission is typically very competitive. This includes Durham. It also includes both Oxford and Cambridge, though certainly less routinely. You will find that there are quite a number of academics at RG universities who view applications from those with OU degrees favourably because those students have tended to adapt very well to the demands of postgraduate life. This is obviously anecdotal and limited only to the academics I personally know or have had occasion to discuss admissions with, who could be outliers. Whatever the case, you can find OU graduates undertaking postgraduate courses at just about all of our top universities.

    3) The OU has a lower absolute rate of graduate employment because it naturally attracts housewives, single mums, those who are retired and people with illnesses and disabilities which impede their ability to access the workplace. I would expect anyone with the benefit of a quality education to not accept statistics without considering what exactly influences their expression.

    4) As somebody who has attended several universities and has significant professional experience, much of which has been in positions which required I be involved in recruitment decisions for both SMEs and large corporations, I think that people enormously overestimate the importance of your awarding institution. I can only recall encountering a couple of people who cared at all, and they were only impressed by Oxbridge. Businesses care only about what value you will add to them. If you are very early in your career then a brand name might get you to the interview stage, but that is typically it. Again, I can only speak from experience in the sectors I know but it seems to be in line with what other people report.

    5) Some people will think the OU is not a 'real' degree. Some people will think business studies is not a 'real' subject. Some people will hire a young attractive applicant they fancy because they like the way they look. Uninformed and ignorant people make uninformed and ignorant decisions. They are in the minority and you shouldn't plan your life according to their nonsense because you don't want to work for them anyway.

    6) There are obvious advantages and disadvantages to studying with the OU. It is not for everyone; it is not always going to be a good option, let alone the best option. It exists to provide access to education for people who desire a different medium of delivery. OU students read books, write essays, take exams, have to navigate the whims of tutors, get frustrated with referencing and most of the various things that other students do. For those of us who have never had any need for the OU, that's fine - hopefully the education received has met their expectations and they are happy. For those of us who have needed to use it, I hope exactly the same thing.

    Life is short. Let's try not to spend it insulting each other for the choices we make in our own lives.
    Thank you for posting this.
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    (Original post by Realitysreflexx)
    4 what i have always preached, OU and such unis are not for large prestigious jobs, they feed SME and keep them full of graduates
    Is Airbus an SME?

    Are OU graduate engineering earnings in the Top 10?

    You didn't address my post at all.
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    (Original post by Davidswift9)
    Is this a joke or are you teasing for responses that will smash you down?


    • Company culture? Spoken like a true person who has never had a job.
    • Tips for an application? Let me give you a tip, applications go through human resources, they dont understand anything technical. Its not rocket science, you match key words in a job advert into your CV.
    • I was on OU Physics. I still get spam emails about job opportunities from the OU careers person (forgot her name) - they're all good companies.
    • An academic review a CV? You do know most academics at universities have never had a real job? Student -> PhD -> Post-Doc -> Contractor -> Lecturer
    • I completed a MSc at a Russell group after my OU degree, they do run 'career fairs'. Career fairs are a joke. Companies send their graduates to hand out leaflets.
    • I'll say it again, no one cares where you get your degree after you have your first job. Its what you can do and what you know.


    Enjoy your 50,000 debt. Opening up that first paycheck will give you a shock.

    Edited - I just realised someone else ridiculed your points. Shoulda saved the energy in my fingers.
    How on Earth is being a post doc not a real job? You still do your 9-5 (usually longer in fact) every single day. Even a PhD student tends to work harder and longer hours than most mainstream jobs.
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    No empirical evidence, just anecdotal here and not really helpful for the OP who must be fed up with notifications on a thread where they're getting no advice about their question. (I'd agree with others and do a combined languages degree, why do a degree in your native language?, don't worry about timetabling, the school can worry about that when they hire a trilingual teacher.)

    But on the subject of OU vs non-OU/RG. I work in the biology sector. I have hired quite a few people and interviewed god only knows how many more and I can tell you I would much rather spend my time talking to and teaching an ex-OU student than an ex-RG student. Why?? Well... (this is a sweeping generalisation, but the majority I have met fall into the below)

    1. Many ex-RG or even ex-traditional uni grads have the attitude that has been shown on this thread. That they are somehow entitled to not only the entry-level job on offer, but career progression, higher pay, more responsibility without showing any ability or experience of managing these things in their uni life or other jobs.

    2. There is an expectation that I should be impressed with their 2:1 and 65% average (I'm not!) from their RG uni which they achieved whilst being fully funded and having a wonderful time.

    3. There is a real arrogance about what they know, what they should be expected to do and a feeling of upset and insult that I won't allow them to jump straight into the technical stuff.

    4. A real bitterness that someone else has done better than they have, or someone from a 'lesser' background has progressed more. Rather than observing, asking questions and learning there is often a feeling that they could do it better without ever coming up with solutions to problems or even completing their task very well.

    OU graduates? Generally humble, genuinely passionate about applying for what they do, often grateful you even consider them and more than happy to 'pay their dues' doing the menial stuff whilst learning their new role. A capacity to go away and find out information if they don't know it.

    Ok OU graduates don't get the same hands on experience which can be a pain when you realise you have to teach them basic basics but wow are they happy to learn and take it all on board.

    Fast forward a couple of years once the new graduates have had their crash landing back to earth with the rest of us and nobody cares where you went to uni or what grade you got. They want to know what your experience is, how you fit the job on offer and evidence of the things you write on your CV.
 
 
 
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