PHYSIOLOGICAL SEX and GENDER - Not Mutually Determining. watch

Axiomasher · 26-02-2018 20:51

Men can feed children, change nappies and knit (among other things). Women can drive tractors, fix engines and drink beer (among other things). Being born as any particular sex doesn't impose a gendered behaviour.

HighOnGoofballs · 26-02-2018 21:01

(Original post by Axiomasher)
Being born as any particular sex doesn't impose a gendered behaviour.

It certainly does. Maybe impose isn't the right word as it means to force, however, I would say sex heavily encourages/pressures men/women into certain behaviours.

For example, men are generally stronger, therefore they are more likely to go work in the mines or become a plumber than opposed to women.

Women can breastfeed, so are naturally more involved in the child's upbringing.

Just a few examples off the top of my head.

Axiomasher · 26-02-2018 21:07

(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
...

Men being statistically stronger than women is a physiological sex characteristic not a gender role or behaviour. Likewise with breastfeeding - that is a physiological difference. Got anything else?

Terranova · 26-02-2018 21:12

what was the point of this post... we know this

Axiomasher · 26-02-2018 21:18

(Original post by orderofthelotus)
what was the point of this post... we know this

Apparently plenty of posters here don't.

Axiomasher · 26-02-2018 22:03

(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
...

Let me ask some questions. Assuming that you are a man, if you meet a woman that is stronger than you does this turn them into a man too or you into a woman? If a woman becomes a miner or plumber do they suddenly grow a penis? Remember, I'm arguing that physiological sex does not determine gender.

HighOnGoofballs · 26-02-2018 23:16

(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
It certainly does. Maybe impose isn't the right word as it means to force, however, I would say sex heavily encourages/pressures men/women into certain behaviours.

For example, men are generally stronger, therefore they are more likely to go work in the mines or become a plumber than opposed to women.

Women can breastfeed, so are naturally more involved in the child's upbringing.

Just a few examples off the top of my head.

(Original post by Axiomasher)
Let me ask some questions. Assuming that you are a man, if you meet a woman that is stronger than you does this turn them into a man too or you into a woman? If a woman becomes a miner or plumber do they suddenly grow a penis? Remember, I'm arguing that physiological sex does not determine gender.

Oh, I completely misinterpreted your post.

Isn't that kinda, well, obvious though. I don't think you'll find many people disagreeing with it, unless they're morons like myself who misunderstood :P

Axiomasher · 26-02-2018 23:23

(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
Oh, I completely misinterpreted your post.

Isn't that kinda, well, obvious though. I don't think you'll find many people disagreeing with it, unless they're morons like myself who misunderstood :P

Well, it should be obvious but many people are so conditioned to see biological sex and gender is having an essential link that they struggle to draw the distinction.

Vapormax · 26-02-2018 23:46

(Original post by Axiomasher)
Well, it should be obvious but many people are so conditioned to see biological sex and gender is having an essential link that they struggle to draw the distinction.

I think it’s because the word gender is used on birth certificates and such so many associate it with what you are born as

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CookieButter · 27-02-2018 01:42

(Original post by Axiomasher)
Men can feed children, change nappies and knit (among other things). Women can drive tractors, fix engines and drink beer (among other things). Being born as any particular sex doesn't impose a gendered behaviour.

Basically what you are saying here is that men and women can perform the same jobs, that they are the same and that the only thing holding them back from performing the same jobs is culture and discrimination. Great! Take this logic to a tribe in Africa that does not have any technology whatsoever...tell the women (pregnant or otherwise) to go out hunting for food and give them spares to protect the village from invaders and tell the men to stay at home and feed the babies...then sit back and watch as the entire tribe starves to death or gets annihilated by other tribes ...

Its easy to pretend that men and women have the same abilities in a part of the world were technology has made everything possible with the touch of a button masking our CLEAR differences, our clearly defined gender roles.

I can teach a dog or a monkey to perform similarity to people in certain tasks. This, according to your logic, means that dogs and monkeys are equal to human beings, that our species does not dictate our behaviour and that perhaps humans can become monkeys and dogs and vice versa...

(Original post by Axiomasher)
Apparently plenty of posters here don't.

Yes, that's because most people do not subscribe to communism, feminism or marxism and their interpretations of life.

SHallowvale · 27-02-2018 17:23

(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
It certainly does. Maybe impose isn't the right word as it means to force, however, I would say sex heavily encourages/pressures men/women into certain behaviours.

For example, men are generally stronger, therefore they are more likely to go work in the mines or become a plumber than opposed to women.

Women can breastfeed, so are naturally more involved in the child's upbringing.

Just a few examples off the top of my head.

It's part of our culture to pair significant physical strength with the ability to do manual jobs like being a plumber. It's understandable why we may think this, but from experience jobs like that don't require much at all aside from a technical understanding of what you're doing.

In fact, I'd argue that there are benefits to being small and a plumber.

SHallowvale · 27-02-2018 17:32

(Original post by CookieButter)
Its easy to pretend that men and women have the same abilities in a part of the world were technology has made everything possible with the touch of a button masking our CLEAR differences, our clearly defined gender roles.

I can teach a dog or a monkey to perform similarity to people in certain tasks. This, according to your logic, means that dogs and monkeys are equal to human beings, that our species does not dictate our behaviour and that perhaps humans can become monkeys and dogs and vice versa...

Yes, that's because most people do not subscribe to communism, feminism or marxism and their interpretations of life.

Knitting, changing nappies, fixing engines, etc, can not all be done "with the touch of a button". These things require skills, at various degrees, and someone's physiology, generally, shouldn't stop anyone from learning them.

Gender roles aren't clearly defined. Culture changes gender roles and plenty of things change culture. Women were once not considered able to work, men were once forced into military, etc.

Hubrillity · 27-02-2018 17:40

What's the exact difference between gender identity and personality or personal identity?

CookieButter · 27-02-2018 18:17

(Original post by SHallowvale)
Knitting, changing nappies, fixing engines, etc, can not all be done "with the touch of a button". These things require skills, at various degrees, and someone's physiology, generally, shouldn't stop anyone from learning them.

The point of that comment was that technology has enabled women to some extent to perform the same jobs as men...that without this technology women would revert to their normal gender defined roles. He gave the example of the tractor. Take that tractor away and ask a pregnant women to work the field...will she be able to perform this job effectively? If you are fair and honest with yourself, which I am certain you are not, you will say no. This is an example of how a limitation of woman drives them away from certain roles in society,....

(Original post by SHallowvale)
Gender roles aren't clearly defined. Culture changes gender roles and plenty of things change culture. Women were once not considered able to work, men were once forced into military, etc.

I see. Gender roles aren't clearly defined. Culture defines our gender roles!! great!! name a culture where men become pregnant and start lactating....yeah...biology defines our roles not culture. Culture is limited in its influence by our different strengths and limitations. Culture cannot impose a role on a man that he cannot perform. similarly it cannot impose a role on a woman that she cannot perform effectively. Cultures play to our strengths and limitations. They are pawns to our biology.

...In which alternate reality were women considered to have been unable to work? ...women have been working since the dawn of man but in roles that cater to their biological strengths and limitations.

The author of this thread is arguing that men and women are the same. That women and men should be able to perform the same tasks in society....that they do not have specific roles.....that the only thing keeping women from doing the same job as men is discrimination....that if we remove discrimination from society women and men would have the same outcomes. My counterargument was OK...take this logic of yours to africa where there is no technology, where the biological differences between the genders become more pronounced and see how well it works there...of course it will fail because men and women have different strengths and limitations and they pursue roles that play to these strengths and limitations. A woman's strengths are in bearing children and providing immediate care for them. A male's strength is in providing for and protecting them.... put a pregnant woman on the front lines and you are bound to loose that women and maybe the war if your entire army was made up of women wielding spares up against men wielding spares. Hell put a pregnant women on the front line and she might just die from exposure within a couple of hours before the battle even starts.

HighOnGoofballs · 27-02-2018 19:09

(Original post by SHallowvale)
It's part of our culture to pair significant physical strength with the ability to do manual jobs like being a plumber. It's understandable why we may think this, but from experience jobs like that don't require much at all aside from a technical understanding of what you're doing.

In fact, I'd argue that there are benefits to being small and a plumber.

Like what exactly? How is it part of our culture?

Men tend to be stronger. Jobs like mining require strength and stamina. Men have that more than women. Therefore, men are more likely to become and succeed in the mining sector.

username2080673 · 27-02-2018 19:20

(Original post by CookieButter)
x

Who on earth would put a pregnant woman on the frontline?

SHallowvale · 27-02-2018 19:42

(Original post by CookieButter)
The point of that comment was that technology has enabled women to some extent to perform the same jobs as men...that without this technology women would revert to their normal gender defined roles. He gave the example of the tractor. Take that tractor away and ask a pregnant women to work the field...will she be able to perform this job effectively? If you are fair and honest with yourself, which I am certain you are not, you will say no. This is an example of how a limitation of woman drives them away from certain roles in society,....

I see. Gender roles aren't clearly defined. Culture defines our gender roles!! great!! name a culture where men become pregnant and start lactating....yeah...biology defines our roles not culture. Culture is limited in its influence by our different strengths and limitations. Culture cannot impose a role on a man that he cannot perform. similarly it cannot impose a role on a woman that she cannot perform effectively. Cultures play to our strengths and limitations. They are pawns to our biology.

...In which alternate reality were women considered to have been unable to work? ...women have been working since the dawn of man but in roles that cater to their biological strengths and limitations.

The author of this thread is arguing that men and women are the same. That women and men should be able to perform the same tasks in society....that they do not have specific roles.....that the only thing keeping women from doing the same job as men is discrimination....that if we remove discrimination from society women and men would have the same outcomes. My counterargument was OK...take this logic of yours to africa where there is no technology, where the biological differences between the genders become more pronounced and see how well it works there...of course it will fail because men and women have different strengths and limitations and they pursue roles that play to these strengths and limitations. A woman's strengths are in bearing children and providing immediate care for them. A male's strength is in providing for and protecting them.... put a pregnant woman on the front lines and you are bound to loose that women and maybe the war if your entire army was made up of women wielding spares up against men wielding spares. Hell put a pregnant women on the front line and she might just die from exposure within a couple of hours before the battle even starts.

Pregnant women do work the field, particularly in poorer parts of the world where lots of people work in agriculture. They may not be as efficient as men but they can still do it. Plus, not all women are pregnant at all times or even want to have children.

Giving birth is a physiological process and thus unrelated to gender. It's not a 'gender' role to give birth, that's just a matter of your sex. Biology is something which influences culture, but not the only thing. Culture restricts the roles that men and women can have. EG: women being able to run as members of parliament.

In a modern society likes ours, men and women should be able to perform the same tasks (generally speaking). You're fixated on using an African village as a counter example but for the purposes of this thread it's pretty irrelevant - it seems pretty obvious that the OP is thinking about our own country.

username2752874 · 27-02-2018 19:45

(Original post by Axiomasher)
Men can feed children, change nappies and knit (among other things). Women can drive tractors, fix engines and drink beer (among other things). Being born as any particular sex doesn't impose a gendered behaviour.

It technically does when you consider the testosterone concentrations in men tend to be elevated which results in a difference in behaviour relative to women. So yes, gendered behaviour can result from it. Not to mention the interaction of Oestrogen, FSH, LH and progesterone in women.

gg

SHallowvale · 27-02-2018 19:45

(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
Like what exactly? How is it part of our culture?

Men tend to be stronger. Jobs like mining require strength and stamina. Men have that more than women. Therefore, men are more likely to become and succeed in the mining sector.

Jobs like plumbing or building, being a technician, etc. From my experience people tend to feel that only men are suitable for these jobs because men are generally larger and stronger, whereas a lot of women are perfectly able to do them as well.

As for mining, if you were to use machinery to help you (which most developed countries use anyways) then you don't need to be strong to work. Sure, if you were down a mine then it would come in handy.

@phoebe · 27-02-2018 20:15

(Original post by CookieButter)
The point of that comment was that technology has enabled women to some extent to perform the same jobs as men...that without this technology women would revert to their normal gender defined roles. He gave the example of the tractor. Take that tractor away and ask a pregnant women to work the field...will she be able to perform this job effectively? If you are fair and honest with yourself, which I am certain you are not, you will say no. This is an example of how a limitation of woman drives them away from certain roles in society,....

I see. Gender roles aren't clearly defined. Culture defines our gender roles!! great!! name a culture where men become pregnant and start lactating....yeah...biology defines our roles not culture. Culture is limited in its influence by our different strengths and limitations. Culture cannot impose a role on a man that he cannot perform. similarly it cannot impose a role on a woman that she cannot perform effectively. Cultures play to our strengths and limitations. They are pawns to our biology.

...In which alternate reality were women considered to have been unable to work? ...women have been working since the dawn of man but in roles that cater to their biological strengths and limitations.

The author of this thread is arguing that men and women are the same. That women and men should be able to perform the same tasks in society....that they do not have specific roles.....that the only thing keeping women from doing the same job as men is discrimination....that if we remove discrimination from society women and men would have the same outcomes. My counterargument was OK...take this logic of yours to africa where there is no technology, where the biological differences between the genders become more pronounced and see how well it works there...of course it will fail because men and women have different strengths and limitations and they pursue roles that play to these strengths and limitations. A woman's strengths are in bearing children and providing immediate care for them. A male's strength is in providing for and protecting them.... put a pregnant woman on the front lines and you are bound to loose that women and maybe the war if your entire army was made up of women wielding spares up against men wielding spares. Hell put a pregnant women on the front line and she might just die from exposure within a couple of hours before the battle even starts.

You're heavily missing the point. Just because SOME women can/want to give birth/breastfeed is a biological fact, doesn't mean that the subsequent child-rearing is a biologically suited to a female. It is 100% cultural tradition that women and men are socialised into separate (emotional/unemotional, passive/agressive, etc.) gender identities.

I think your post is extremely naive as you repetedly bring up ''If a pregnant woman...'', when the OP was talking about women. I don't know many women that spend more than a few years of their whole lives pregnant - so it's misleading to act as if to be pregnant is some great permanent burden. Many women choose to stay childless, or cannot child-bear, and so on.

Perhaps some men were jealous of women having such amazing bodies, that could nurture human life before anyone/anything else got the chance? Envious of how obviously strong a child-bearing woman had proved herself to be? So, in their bitterness, ancient men decided that all other ways of gaining status should be theirs only.

Thank goodness for all of the brilliant women (and men) over the last few hundered years that have contributed towards liberation and education for everyone! <3

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