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Should male circumcision be illegal in the UK? watch

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    (Original post by SCIENCE :D)
    I would make all religious indoctrination of children illegal.

    Circumcision, Baptism, religious schools etc..
    Couldn't agree more, sad that this is even a discussion
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    (Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
    Your first comment only mentioned consent. There was no mention of harm being done. The first implied you believed nothing should be imposed on the baby without their consent, while the second was certainly more sensible in clarifying that a baby should not be imposed to anything harmful as he cannot consent. Semantics, but two different comments.
    Ok I will give you that.
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    (Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
    Babies have lots of permanent things that are done to them without their consent. Take vaccinations for example. One can argue this is because vaccinations are healthy for the baby, but proponents argue that is also true for circumcision (which, tbh, has some validity). I think the consent argument is too simplistic.
    No, it has no validity.
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    (Original post by LucianFighter)
    No,

    It's a religious custom and a duty for parents of that specific religion to ensure their offspring is brought up in the faith...

    What the child does when they're are older in adulthood is there own concern. Like you mentioned "children can't consent to a lot of things" that doesn't mean that the parents do it recklessly. It is done usually for the benefit of the child (religiously but also for health).

    Health pros:

    - A decreased risk of urinary tract infections.
    - A reduced risk of STD's
    - Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) & Balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans & foreskin)
    - Prevention of Phimosis (inability to retract the foreskin).
    - Cleanliness

    The issue with doing it later in life and thus leaving it up to the individual when they're older is that it is far more painful in comparison to when they're a baby.

    It's a religious practice and often a cultural one too so banning it would raise an issue amongst communities here in the UK...So no.
    Total garbage of the highest order
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    (Original post by PQ)
    WARNING: the link below is about circumcision complications and includes diagrams and photographs you might find upsetting.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...7/#!po=11.0294


    Explain again why the benefits make the risks for routine circumcision of children worthwhile?
    Cheers, it'll check the study out when I have the time (genuine comment, not being sarcastic).

    And I never once stated that I think male circumcision is a good thing. I'm here to provide balance to a very one-sided argument. If the thread was filled with people who support male circumcision, my comments would have been very different. If you notice, I've tried to be open-minded, and have never actually stated my view on the matter.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    No
    And why is that?
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    (Original post by k.n.h.)
    And why is that?
    Why not? I've read about the many health benefits and I know many guy who are circumcised and who actually prefer it that way
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    (Original post by zxcvbnm123456789)
    Total garbage of the highest order
    Agree.

    (Original post by k.n.h.)
    And why is that?
    Probably because it's Islamophobic/she prefers the look of circumcised penises or some other b/s.
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    (Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
    Cheers, it'll check the study out when I have the time (genuine comment, not being sarcastic).

    And I never once stated that I think male circumcision is a good thing. I here to provide balance to a very one-sided argument. If the thread was filled with people who support male circumcision, my comments would have been very different. If you notice, I've tried to be open-minded, and have never actually stated my view on the matter.
    You’re not playing devils advocate very well if you give up when there’s a tricky question:

    Explain again why the benefits make the risks for routine circumcision of children worthwhile?

    How do you justify describing something that has caused deaths and permanent damage to even one child’s penis as “neutral at worst”?
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    (Original post by PQ)
    WARNING: the link below is about circumcision complications and includes diagrams and photographs you might find upsetting.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...7/#!po=11.0294

    Read and enjoy.

    The sections on necrotizing fasciitis, degloving of skin, fistulas and amputation of the glans are particularly compelling.

    Explain again why the benefits make the risks for routine circumcision of children worthwhile?

    Surely 1 death from a procedure with no real proven benefits is too many...
    Again, discussing the harms and benefits is unhelpful. He could just reply back with the very first few lines of that link and outline how the complication rate is low and how most of these complications can be managed easily. He could reply to the death with the fact that it was a result of misplacing a medical implement as opposed to the circumcision itself. He could reply that to further limit any risk there could be screenings for conditions that increase the risk of complications such as haemophilia.

    The fact that it is an unecessary procedure that is not carried out in the child's best interests should be enough.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Why not? I've read about the many health benefits and I know many guy who are circumcised and who actually prefer it that way
    In terms of male circumcision being carried out at infant age (most common), personally for me it would be better for males to evaluate their own perceived benefits and drawbacks of circumcision and make their choice about what they want to do with their genitals at an older age - some people prefer circumcision, some don't, but the action is permanent and the effect will stay for the rest of their life. Also, lots of the health benefits of circumcision are being challenged on this thread if you look through.

    Note that I haven't contended whether it should be illegal yet, I'm just adding this.
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    (Original post by Pigster)
    Hitchens RIP

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X70ss7vsS_c

    No-one says (said) it better than him.
    I was waiting for someone to post this. Rip Hitch, one of the most eloquent speakers there ever will be, blessed with the sharpest of wits.

    I doubt anyone has ever said anything better than him
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    (Original post by PQ)
    You’re not playing devils advocate very well if you give up when there’s a tricky question:

    Explain again why the benefits make the risks for routine circumcision of children worthwhile?

    How do you justify describing something that has caused deaths and permanent damage to even one child’s penis as “neutral at worst”?
    Well, I'm also here to educate myself so forgive me if I'm not some sort of expert on the matter.

    Given the fact that we've essentially agreed circumcision holds no significant benefits, it's hard for me to provide a good rebuttal to your question.

    Maybe someone more educated than me can take the reigns on this one. Good question.
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    No it shouldn’t
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    (Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
    Cheers, it'll check the study out when I have the time (genuine comment, not being sarcastic).

    And I never once stated that I think male circumcision is a good thing. I'm here to provide balance to a very one-sided argument. If the thread was filled with people who support male circumcision, my comments would have been very different. If you notice, I've tried to be open-minded, and have never actually stated my view on the matter.
    Has the thought ever occurred to you that perhaps there is a reason the argument that should not even be necessary is very one sided?
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    (Original post by Conceited)
    Again, discussing the harms and benefits is unhelpful. He could just reply back with the very first few lines of that link and outline how the complication rate is low and how most of these complications can be managed easily. He could reply to the death with the fact that it was a result of misplacing a medical implement as opposed to the circumcision itself. He could reply that to further limit any risk there could be screenings for conditions that increase the risk of complications such as haemophilia.

    The fact that it is an unecessary procedure that is not carried out in the child's best interests should be enough.
    It SHOULD be enough...but the OP has repeatedly stated that it causes no harm or permanent damage and is medically neutral at worst. Providing evidence that performing this unnecessary procedure causes harm even to a small number of children is worthwhile to stop further repetition of that lie.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Why not?
    Because it's not risk free, it's not reversible and the child has no say in the matter (we are talking about infant male circumcision right?)

    I've read about the many health benefits
    Then you would know that any 'health benefits' are negligible and you probably aren't being consistent with this argument anyway (see: rates for breast cancer in women vs penile cancer in men).

    and I know many guy who are circumcised and who actually prefer it that way
    What about the guys who don't prefer it and would have liked to have had the choice? They do exist.

    This subject is a good example of how people will be alright with absolutely absurd things purely because they're normalised.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    It SHOULD be enough...but the OP has repeatedly stated that it causes no harm or permanent damage and is medically neutral at worst. Providing evidence that performing this unnecessary procedure causes harm even to a small number of children is worthwhile to stop further repetition of that lie.
    Can we be best friends?
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    (Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
    Well, I'm also here to educate myself so forgive me if I'm not some sort of expert on the matter.

    Given the fact that we've essentially agreed circumcision holds no significant benefits, it's hard for me to provide a good rebuttal to your question.

    Maybe someone more educated than me can take the reigns on this one. Good question.
    Fair enough, I commend your honesty. I highly doubt however that someone more educated would provide any credible rebuttal.
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    (Original post by zxcvbnm123456789)
    Has the thought ever occurred to you that perhaps there is a reason the argument that should not even be necessary is very one sided?
    No, it hasn't occurred to me actually.

    Take into account, so far, I've only tried to question and counter.

    We haven't discussed (bar 1) arguments FOR keeping circumcision legal.

    I think the strongest one would be that, as seen by prohibition or the war on drugs, when you ban something ingrained in (certain areas) of society, the fallout is always negative.

    If circumcision becomes illegal, a black market will arise, providing more dangerous circumcision leading to malpractice, inefficiency and possible casualties.

    Moreover, if the government want to prevent this, punishments would have to be increased, immigration laws may have to be tightening, and taxpayer money will certainly be deleted.
 
 
 
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