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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Free speech doesn't exist in this country. There's no law protecting it.

    We have freedom of expression. It's subtly different.
    Freedom of speach exists under United Nations declerations of Humans rights, which is Law and can be used here though, right?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    It doesn't. But if you are corrected, surely it is only polite to use the pronoun someone asks? No? If someone introduces themselves to you as Bob, you wouldn't call them Alice would you?
    A name is a name and is it's own definition.

    Pronouns have definitions, too. E.g. "he":

    "Used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal previously mentioned or easily identified".

    A man, boy, or male are in turn sex terms. Your gender orientation does not change your sex. In this case asking others to use the wrong pronoun is forcing them to accept your reality. I see myself in no way obliged to live in someone else's reality. Especially if that person tries to force himself into the realities of others, such males transitioning and competing as women in women's sport. And yes, it is always men, because trans men are no threat to men. I am yet to see a trans man as "Man of the Year" in fact, I know of a male who didn't get Man of the Year but got Woman of the Year. Or a trans man dominate men's sport. Or trans men telling gays to eat their man pussy. But the reverse, oh yea.

    Read this, how do you honestly feel about white, middle-aged men saying they are women, having overrun LGBT organizations and driving the agenda?

    https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/...sbian-iceberg/
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Sex =/= gender.
    Agreed.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    https://twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/stat...34333131755520

    You are really this naive, right? You honestly don't want to see the issue arising here?
    No. Not at all. I know where the line is. I don't step over it. How? I am nice to people.

    Could you please paint me a scenario where you would have the need to say something to someone where they perceived that you had been offensive to the point that it could be deemed a hate crime, but you felt your right to say what you needed to say was more pressing? I can't. Please feel free to provide an example scenario.

    Just be nice and you will have no problems. But if you feel the need to call someone a tr***y fag to their face, you are probably verging into territory that is going to involve the police.

    There are surveys that suggest a third of trans people have been verbally or physically assaulted simply for who they are. Are you suggesting that this is acceptable and that we should just stand back and allow free speech to run its course?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    No. Not at all. I know where the line is. I don't step over it. How? I am nice to people.

    Could you please paint me a scenario where you would have the need to say something to someone where they perceived that you had been offensive to the point that it could be deemed a hate crime, but you felt your right to say what you needed to say was more pressing? I can't. Please feel free to provide an example scenario.

    Just be nice and you will have no problems. But if you feel the need to call someone a tr***y fag to their face, you are probably verging into territory that is going to involve the police.

    There are surveys that suggest a third of trans people have been verbally or physically assaulted simply for who they are. Are you suggesting that this is acceptable and that we should just stand back and allow free speech to run its course?
    Not calling a man with AGP she is not quite the same as ****** fag is it?
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    Oh and I purposefully didn't address your last point, because you straw manned. We are specifically talking about pronouns here. And you did what all TRAs do - gaslight. Portrayed them as such a victimized group and we better not ever question anything. If you think I go around, or condone people who do, calling trans people ****** **** then there is no point talking with you.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Why is that a bad thing? We have a system of justice which either allows trained judges to make a call on the law or a jury made of of members of the public. The arguments are put forward and they decide. It is a good system of justice.

    People can cry whatever they like but it is our law courts that judge. You seem to be mixing up social media and the press with the law. Just because someone says something, does not mean it is true.
    Judges and juries can only decide on cases that are before them. The real arbiters of determining hate speech are the Police who decide which acts constitute hate speech and which do not, and thereby decide which cases to charge.

    I don't think we should be able to say absolutely whatever we want and recognise that threatening comments like the one you gave as an example earlier should have consequences; however, the problem I have is that it is difficult to be consistent and fair with such a subjective concept. I am sure many feel that the Bible and Qur'an contain passages that incite hatred against various groups of people, yet we do not ban those books or stop people from handing them out on the street.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    https://twitter.com/4th_WaveNow/stat...34333131755520

    .
    You are really this naive, right? You honestly don't want to see the issue arising here?
    This is exactly the point I was making near the beginning of this thread! I posted this thing on free speech exactly because the law has been set up in such a way as to work in favour of those who perceive that offense and harassment were meant. Furthermore, judges are more likely nowadays to give in to cultural pressures (or adopt today's cultural norms themselves) and make an unfair judgement.

    This is what I have seen many times and it isn't applicable just to the pronoun issue.
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    (Original post by Iridocyclitis)
    Judges and juries can only decide on cases that are before them. The real arbiters of determining hate speech are the Police who decide which acts constitute hate speech and which do not, and thereby decide which cases to charge.

    I don't think we should be able to say absolutely whatever we want and recognise that threatening comments like the one you gave as an example earlier should have consequences; however, the problem I have is that it is difficult to be consistent and fair with such a subjective concept. I am sure many feel that the Bible and Qur'an contain passages that incite hatred against various groups of people, yet we do not ban those books or stop people from handing them out on the street.
    And neither should we! Freedom of religious expression is also a crucial element of civilized society.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Not calling a man with AGP she is not quite the same as ****** fag is it?
    Agreed. And one is a mistake and the other is a hate crime. But why would you consistently want to call someone using the wrong pronoun? What purpose would that serve?
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    (Original post by Iridocyclitis)
    however, the problem I have is that it is difficult to be consistent and fair with such a subjective concept.
    Sorry - I don't understand. What is subjective? We are talking about calling someone he or she. Now in the first instance, you might have to make a guess and if you are corrected then you know exactly where you stand. So you just do that. Now if you want to be really proactive, you ask which pronoun to use. It is no big deal. It is just common courtesy.

    Could you tell me where it is difficult to be consistent?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Agreed. And one is a mistake and the other is a hate crime. But why would you consistently want to call someone using the wrong pronoun? What purpose would that serve?
    Reality.

    https://www.finews.ch/news/banken/29...gbt-pips-bunce

    Would you call this freak "she" on the days he pretends to be a woman? He stole an award from actual women just because he was soooo brave in 'coming out'.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Reality.

    https://www.finews.ch/news/banken/29...gbt-pips-bunce

    Would you call this freak "she" on the days he pretends to be a woman? He stole an award from actual women just because he was soooo brave in 'coming out'.
    No idea. Its all in foreign. Looks like you have had to search far and wide for a single (foreign) article to back up your point. Can you not do any better than that?
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    (Original post by DeBruyne18)
    Don't believe everything the press says. It is exceedingly rare for any student union to ban a speaker, apart from those associated with organisations that put government has determined ate terrorist linked groups.

    I challenge anyone here to give me the names and evidence of 10 speakers banned from speaking at student unions in the last twelve months. Given how widespread the press makes out it is.
    Milo Yiannopoulos and Germaine Green were both no platformed at my university. There have been others too but tbh I try to avoid the student's union as much as possible because they're disgusting. They also banned the Conservative Society from fresher's fair because someone smashed their bust of Margaret Thatcher that they had on their stall. The person who smashed it faced no consequences for doing so.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    No idea. Its all in foreign. Looks like you have had to search far and wide for a single (foreign) article to back up your point. Can you not do any better than that?
    Really, that's your excuse? You are even more pathetic than I thought. "Oh no I don't want it to be true, I don't think that source is very good, so I will dismiss the entire argument, oh and I won't even bother using my browser's translation tool, coz I'm that much of an idiot".

    https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/mi...hilip-20171002

    Oh no, I couldn't have done that by myself because I'm ByEeek who ignores everything I don't wanna hear.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Really, that's your excuse? You are even more pathetic than I thought. "Oh no I don't want it to be true, I don't think that source is very good, so I will dismiss the entire argument, oh and I won't even bother using my browser's translation tool, coz I'm that much of an idiot".

    https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/mi...hilip-20171002

    Oh no, I couldn't have done that by myself because I'm ByEeek who ignores everything I don't wanna hear.
    Thanks for the article. Interesting piece. I'm not really sure what your point is though. Nice to see that this person was finally able to be the person they always knew they were - as it said in the article, since the age of 4. And you say this person is a freak? Why? Just exactly how do you define "normal" when everyone is unique?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Thanks for the article. Interesting piece. I'm not really sure what your point is though. Nice to see that this person was finally able to be the person they always knew they were - as it said in the article, since the age of 4. And you say this person is a freak? Why? Just exactly how do you define "normal" when everyone is unique?
    Oh two days a week I'm a woman 5 days a week I'm a man - AGP.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Oh two days a week I'm a woman 5 days a week I'm a man - AGP.
    And what is wrong with that?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    And what is wrong with that?
    It's an insult to all women that we allow this fetishist to call himself "woman". Reducing "woman" to a feeling in a man's head based on stereotypes and sex fantasies.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    It's an insult to all women that we allow this fetishist to call himself "woman". Reducing "woman" to a feeling in a man's head based on stereotypes and sex fantasies.
    How is it an insult? I'm sorry, but if a woman decided to be a man and then decided to be a woman I don't feel insulted. It doesn't impact me one bit. In fact, it is absolutely none of my business. And why are you (obviously a man) concerned about how women feel? Can they not speak for themselves?

    Blimey - were you born in 1850 and transported to modern Britain? Do you feel that women need to be protected by you?
 
 
 
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