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Driving in the snow? watch

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    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    What if they lived in Scandinavia or eastern Europe?
    Not all nations suffer from irrational fear of snow. Snow is the best training condition. I didn't invent that, I just repeat after one of rally champions. I passed my own driving test in a middle of snowy winter. It teaches feeling, control and respect.

    Once again, there is much greater chance that they kill themselves in summer as a result of oil spill, tire failure or side wind blow, rather than in winter driving 12 mph. Of course, any attempt of driving any car in any conditions should start from reading a book written by someone like the Stig. After that, there are plenty of racing tracks across the UK, I'm sure it's possible to find some place that organizes some track days. If you ever perform a succesful save, it will be thanks to the winter and such training.
    I drove on the snow because I had to, my employer knows I live 2.5 miles away in an area with well maintained/gritted roads, there was no getting out of it. I'd rather pull a "I can't get in" absence on a day when I need to. I didn't do any of my typical lunch hour excursions or go out after work. Driving in dangerous conditions for the sake of it is incredibly irrationally stupid. We aren't in Scandinavia or Eastern Europe - they aren't familiar conditions to a lot of us; that is a poor argument..
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    (Original post by the bear)
    no doubt you think we should practice walking on icy pavements to improve our ambulatory skills

    smh
    Nonsense. Walking on icy pavement doesn't mean you will fall. And anyway, if you don't learn how to fall, you only risk getting seriously injured some time when you don't expect it.
    Alternatively, you may resign from going outside your house and starve in it.

    And yes, if you're planning to walk in the mountains, there are some walking techniques you should learn, like stepping on full feet instead of a heel, if you do not wish to fell and crack back of your head. Otherwise, you should never walk to the mountains.

    You also keep ignoring the fact that driving on snow offers some transferable skills. If you ever wish to learn to control your car, you must start from training snow or sliding plate. This may save you in case of oil spill in summer, of when you will be forced to manoeuvre around in an emergency and your car skids afterwards.
    Also I guess that most of people who would not risk driving in snow, would risk driving at negative temperatures but on clean roads- in such case they risk driving over black ice, which is much more dangerous in every possible aspect, and the only chance to stay on the road in case of black ice, have only those who gained substantial experience from driving on snow and ice.

    In my eyes, what you propose is to turn ourselves into crippled creatures unable to deal with any difficulties, but who risk getting killed and feel it's okay only because we keep ourselves unaware of dangers.
    Slow driving in snow isn't dangerous, it teaches you a lot.
    Being unable to react properly and efficiently to unexpected threats, that is something that may kill you.


    (Original post by Andrew97)
    In each driving test for each country I suspect the tests will be tailored to that country. Ie snow driving will play a part in Sweden/Russia/Canada, because it is incredibly likely to be relevent. This is not the case in the uk.
    Negative. Only Scandinavian countries have proper driving tests, which also focus on particular conditions, the rest just ignore the problem.

    It's you in the UK who are particularly vulnerable to winter because this is a condition you're not used to. Then you are the most likely to be surprised by dangerous conditions such as black ice.
    Just because it doesn't happen often, I don't see why should this be a reason to hide your head in the sand. If you learn how to deal with a problem, you don't get overwhelmed when it happens next time.


    (Original post by nevershear)
    I drove on the snow because I had to, my employer knows I live 2.5 miles away in an area with well maintained/gritted roads, there was no getting out of it. I'd rather pull a "I can't get in" absence on a day when I need to. I didn't do any of my typical lunch hour excursions or go out after work. Driving in dangerous conditions for the sake of it is incredibly irrationally stupid. We aren't in Scandinavia or Eastern Europe - they aren't familiar conditions to a lot of us; that is a poor argument..
    It is not a dangerous condition, it is only a condition you are not used to. If you feel that driving 12mph on snow is too much for you, then you're clearly playing a Russian roulette when driving much faster on tarmac- one oil spill, or emergency avoidance of an obstacle, some invisible sand, and you're done- falling off the road into trees at 50 or 70 mph, much worse than hitting a curb at 12mph isn't it?
    If you can't control situation on snow, you stand no chance to control it on tarmac in emergency, cause everything will be happening like 10 times faster then.
    Not driving on snow is an ostrich's tactics. Perhaps more comfortable, but won't save you in case of real danger.

    These are dangerous situations, perfectly saved, no doubt by drivers who spent quite a lot of time training:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiVIDjGQQYM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9VrntC7VKA

    And this isn't:
    https://youtu.be/tgzrV0dtrpI?t=17s
    the guys crashed several times because they were way too cocky, wanted to show off, but the speeds were just way too low to knock out their cars, not to mention any injuries.
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    I was lucky enough to have driving lessons in the snow.

    I have been out but area was not as badly effected only 4 or so inches.
    it's been really funny watching a few of my neighbours who think their so good at driving, wheel spinning to get moving, while some of us have had no problems on the same junction.
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    I made it clear earlier that I agree with you on skid control. We just don’t have the logistics for everyone to practice snow driving in the U.K.
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    No point, everything's ****ing closed anyway when it snows so why bother driving anywhere? Glad the roads are clear round my way now.
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    (Original post by Andrew97)
    I made it clear earlier that I agree with you on skid control. We just don’t have the logistics for everyone to practice snow driving in the U.K.
    I guess a trip to Finland would be a good investment, they have terrific driving schools.
    Driving a car on snow can be as much fun as going ski in Alps.
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    PTMalewski Are you actually trying to say it's easier to drive when the tyres have less grip then when they have more grip? That makes absolutely zero sense.
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    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    PTMalewski Are you actually trying to say it's easier to drive when the tyres have less grip then when they have more grip? That makes absolutely zero sense.
    Then try to control skidding on snow and then on dry tarmac, and then you'll see.

    Better grip means that car loses and retains grip in much more violent manner, so driver's reaction must be much quicker and still precise when this happens. Also, losing grip on tarmac requires much higher speeds, which means you have generally less time to react before you fell off the road, and any accident after losing grip on the tarmac will take place at much higher speed, which means it can actually be dangerous.
    On snow, you're skidding a bit practically all the time, but it all happens gently and at speeds so low it is easy to control the situation and actually get a feel of all forces that work on car's movement. In the same time, snow still gives enough grip to make car controllable, unlike ice where grip is practically none.

    If I were to describe it in a short bon mot, I'd say, that 'On snow something happens all the time, so you have something to do. On tarmac nothing happens most of the time, but when it does, you die.'
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    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    Then try to control skidding on snow and then on dry tarmac, and then you'll see.

    Better grip means that car loses and retains grip in much more violent manner, so driver's reaction must be much quicker and still precise when this happens. Also, losing grip on tarmac requires much higher speeds, which means you have generally less time to react before you fell off the road, and any accident after losing grip on the tarmac will take place at much higher speed, which means it can actually be dangerous.
    On snow, you're skidding a bit practically all the time, but it all happens gently and at speeds so low it is easy to control the situation and actually get a feel of all forces that work on car's movement. In the same time, snow still gives enough grip to make car controllable, unlike ice where grip is practically none.

    If I were to describe it in a short bon mot, I'd say, that 'On snow something happens all the time, so you have something to do. On tarmac nothing happens most of the time, but when it does, you die.'
    If I'm going to die on tarmac either way then what's the point of practising in the snow? Also as you said you're unlikely to lose control on tarmac but you're constantly losing control on snow, why put yourself I a situation where you're constantly losing control?

    It sounds like you're a thrill seeker and that's fine. If you die it's just natural selection. But please don't encourage other people to do moronic things too.
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    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    If I'm going to die on tarmac either way then what's the point of practising in the snow? Also as you said you're unlikely to lose control on tarmac but you're constantly losing control on snow, why put yourself I a situation where you're constantly losing control?

    It sounds like you're a thrill seeker and that's fine. If you die it's just natural selection. But please don't encourage other people to do moronic things too.
    PRSOM

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    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    If I'm going to die on tarmac either way then what's the point of practising in the snow? Also as you said you're unlikely to lose control on tarmac but you're constantly losing control on snow, why put yourself I a situation where you're constantly losing control?
    You say so because clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about.


    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    It sounds like you're a thrill seeker and that's fine.
    Well, I am not. It is much easier to break your neck while going ski, than getting a slightest injury while driving a car. on snow.

    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    If you die it's just natural selection. But please don't encourage other people to do moronic things too.
    Knowing how a car behaves in response to particular actions of a driver, makes me much less likely to die in an accident than you.

    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    If I'm going to die on tarmac either way then what's the point of practising in the snow? Also as you said you're unlikely to lose control on tarmac
    Because on snow you grasp the idea of what is going to happen if you do a particular thing on a tarmac. Only on snow, you can easily get control, while on tarmac you stand no chance if you're unprepared to do so.

    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    Also as you said you're unlikely to lose control on tarmac

    Until something unexpected happens.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9VrntC7VKA
    It is moronic to hide your head in the sand, while you could prepare yourself to respond to the danger.
    What if somebody drives in your way, or walks into road straight in front of your bonnet, or you drive into oil spill when you'll be driving 50mph or more? I wonder, what are you going to then, and what kind of skills will you utilize in such situation, other than saying 'I refuse to drive in dangerous conditions'.

    You don't have to drive in a winter if you don't want to, but avoidance of learning is a wishful thinking. The danger may catch you anyway, and when it does it's better to be prepared. If another car on a motorway loses it's oil, and you drive over it, the feeling will be pretty similar like to going over molten snow.
    Similarly, if you will try to avoid a collision by going through road's shoulder, sand on tarmac will feel almost like ice, while gravel like fresh snow. If you fail to control your car then, it may happen that trying to avoid one collision, you will cause another. Driving slowly is generally a good idea, but you can't always predict what is going to happen. I doubt that you always drive less than 20-30mph.

    Here you go, nice sunny day, almost empty motorway, what can possibly go wrong?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXsJm7Ee-8s
    Oh, unfortunately, there was some oil on the road, lack of skill and only barriers saved him from crashing into cars incoming from opposite direction.

    Tell me, would you drive on a clean tarmac road when there is negative temperature outside? Because if yes, you're putting yourself in much greater danger than driving on snow, because if you go over black ice, there will be extreme changes of grip totally unexpected, from very high to none, while snow offers some grip at a similar level all the time, therefore predictable and controllable reactions.
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    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    You say so because clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about.
    What do you mean "You say so"? I was literally quoting what you said, if you don't agree with it then don't say it in the first.

    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    Because on snow you grasp the idea of what is going to happen if you do a particular thing on a tarmac. Only on snow, you can easily get control, while on tarmac you stand no chance if you're unprepared to do so.
    You said tarmac was different, and you said if you lose control on tarmac then there's virtually nothing you can do about it. You really need to make up your mind here.

    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    It is moronic to hide your head in the sand, while you could prepare yourself to respond to the danger.
    What if somebody drives in your way, or walks into road straight in front of your bonnet, or you drive into oil spill when you'll be driving 50mph or more? I wonder, what are you going to then, and what kind of skills will you utilize in such situation, other than saying 'I refuse to drive in dangerous conditions'.
    It's not "hiding my head in the sand", there's millions of things that could potentially happen to you in life, you can't be prepared for every single one. Maybe you suffer from anxiety? I've had experience of this and there's lots of help out there, maybe consider booking an appointment with your GP.

    If someone drives in my way there's very little I can do about it. If someone walks straight in front of my bonnet then I'll just brake. Oil spills? Like realistically how likely is that to actually happen?

    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    You don't have to drive in a winter if you don't want to, but avoidance of learning is a wishful thinking. The danger may catch you anyway, and when it does it's better to be prepared. If another car on a motorway loses it's oil, and you drive over it, the feeling will be pretty similar to like to go over molten snow. Similarly, if you will try to avoid a collision by going through road's shoulder, sand on tarmac will feel almost like ice, while gravel like fresh snow. If you fail to control your car then, it may happen that trying to avoid one collision, you will cause another. Driving slowly is generally a good idea, but you can't always predict what is going to happen. I doubt that you will always drive less than 20-30mph.

    Tell me, would you drive on a clean tarmac road when there is negative temperature outside? Because if yes, you're putting yourself in much greater danger than driving on snow, because if you go over black ice, there will be extreme changes of grip totally unexpected, from very high to none, while snow offers some grip at a similar level all the time, therefore predictable and controllable reactions.
    Driving in winter and driving in snow aren't the same thing. And snow is so rare in this country it's not difficult to avoid driving in it. As I said before, you can't be prepared for everything.

    Molten snow isn't a thing.

    I've met people like you before, you think you're the world's best driver and that you have complete control of your car at all times. You do reckless things because you think nothing can go wrong and the truth is it can. No one ever has 100% control over a vehicle and deliberately doing things that are risky because you think you're superior just puts people's lives in danger.
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    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    What do you mean "You say so"? I was literally quoting what you said, if you don't agree with it then don't say it in the first.
    You realise that bon mots oversimplify and are not to be taken literally?

    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    You said tarmac was different, and you said if you lose control on tarmac then there's virtually nothing you can do about it. You really need to make up your mind here.
    I have explained what is the difference between snow and tarmac. The difference is a grip. This maybe third or fourth time when I'm saying this, but the better grip of tarmac means more violent behaviour of vehicles which loses and retains grip, this also happens at much higher speed.
    Therefore tarmac is more difficult when something happens, but the laws of physics remain the same. The point is, that what provokes a car to skid on snow, will also do this on tarmac, only at much higher speed and in more violent manner which will be a completely different level of difficulty, but even if your experience from snow would not allow you to save the situation, then at least you have clearer idea of car physics and better feeling, which will warn you that something may just be possible and it's better to slow down or turn more cautiously and gently.

    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    If someone drives in my way there's very little I can do about it
    You're wrong, I've even shown you a video which proves you wrong. If you panic, or can't turn the steering wheel quickly, then indeed you'll do nothing. But a good driver can do plenty of things in most of the situations. Ability to make a quick avoidance and control the car on changing surface afterwards is then critical. This has become easier in recent years due to an introduction of systems such as stability control, but the driver still has to change directions pretty quickly and have just a bit of feeling of the car.

    Of course, sometimes a driver should also decide whenever it is better to try avoiding a collision or to crash, and if to crash, then what to crash into. Sometimes people kill themselves because they naturally try to avoid collision but don't have this information on the backs of their heads, that dirty side of the road has much lower grip, and pendulum after rapid avoidance will most likely cause back of their car to skid, which will turn them and may cause even worse frontal collision when they find themselves on a wrong side of the road.


    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    . If someone walks straight in front of my bonnet then I'll just brake.
    If this was that easy, then ABS and BAS systems would not have been invented, and quite many older cars still seen on the roads don't have the second one, so emergency braking still requires some training. Also, you don't just brake, in some situation, only the moose turn will save you from killing somebody, or having a moose crashing through front winshield and ripping your head off.

    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    Oil spills? Like realistically how likely is that to actually happen?
    Quite often actually, all you need for this to happen is an unpredictable crankshaft sealant failure which is likely to happen several times during the lifespan of every truck or other fleet vehicles that runs high mileages, plus there are other failures which may cause this.
    Not to mention you may face other problems. Presume there is a construction site nearby, or a gravel road, so the tarmac is covered with sand- there may be so little of it that you won't notice, but the road will get very slippery in the place. If you fall off the road, in most cases you will just wreck a car, but the wrong reaction can as well make you oversteer and drive into the wrong side of the road, causing a frontal collision with another vehicle, which can prove deadly to both of you. Even stability control doesn't always save you, I've seen after skid crashes of cars which had such device.

    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    Driving in winter and driving in snow aren't the same thing. And snow is so rare in this country it's not difficult to avoid driving in it. As I said before, you can't be prepared for everything.
    I know what the Gulf stream does to British climate.
    No, I can't be prepared for everything but avoiding relatively safe condition which offers a great opportunity to get a feel of working forces isn't very reasonable.
    At least if you do intend to drive in temperatures close to 0*C, because road may be freezing then and black ice is much worse, firstly because it causes rapid changes of grip, secondly because it surprises people who drive at speeds much higher than they would if this was snow.

    In the end road traffic has wide range of dangers and if you are going to be killed in it, it will most likely will happen in good weather conditions, because only then you or someone else will be driving at speed deadly at the current stage of vehicle safety.

    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    I've met people like you before, you think you're the world's best driver and that you have complete control of your car at all times. You do reckless things because you think nothing can go wrong and the truth is it can. No one ever has 100% control over a vehicle and deliberately doing things that are risky because you think you're superior just puts people's lives in danger.
    Absolutely wrong. Just because I'm not afraid of driving in snow 12 mph- which is a speed at which you practically cannot kill anyone (unless some pedestrian particularly fells just in front of your vehicle, and you should expect that in a city as well)
    , because I've trained it many times, doesn't mean I'm reckless. I know my limits because I have tested them many times in controlled environment, and then in the open traffic I can drive, way below the limits, because I know where they are so I know where is the edge I should stay away from and I am more aware of dangers. I'm not afraid of snow because snow has stable and therefore predictable effect on car's behaviour. It is black ice and other people speeding or not paying attention to the road that bother me. But I also know If I make a mistake and don't recognize the black ice, only experience from driving on snow can save me.

    I generally believe that people overuse cars. I myself often don't drive a car for weeks, but when I do something I like to know that I'm doing it properly and without taking unnecessary risk.
    I can't ski for example, and I wouldn't like to break my neck, therefore I wouldn't ski down a mountain just after learning how to put on skis and walk in them- which very much alike what driving courses in most countries offer. They teach you the traffic regulations, how to park, and slow gentle driving on dry tarmac, but leave you with absolutely nothing to deal with emergency situations.
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    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    if your experience from snow would not allow you to save the situation, then at least you have clearer idea of car physics
    Yeah because when you're hurtling towards your death a knowledge of car physics is really going to make you feel better.

    I give up. You're arrogant, you contradict yourself and you encourage irresponsible behaviour. Plus you sound like you suffer from some weird sort of anxiety disorder (nothing wrong with that but consider seeking help). Unfortunately with people like you, it usually takes killing someone to realise that you were being reckless.
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    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    Yeah because when you're hurtling towards your death a knowledge of car physics is really going to make you feel better.

    I give up. You're arrogant, you contradict yourself and you encourage irresponsible behaviour. Plus you sound like you suffer from some weird sort of anxiety disorder (nothing wrong with that but consider seeking help). Unfortunately with people like you, it usually takes killing someone to realise that you were being reckless.
    :congrats:

    driving a car is the most dangerous thing we do by and large. each year many families are ruined by some oaf in a pimped up Corsa who thinks he is a superior driving god and has watched too many episodes of Top Gear.
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    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    Yeah because when you're hurtling towards your death a knowledge of car physics is really going to make you feel better.
    No. But learned reaction can save you. Even in UK, where road traffic is generally slow, it may come in handy


    (Original post by howitoughttobe)

    I give up. You're arrogant, you contradict yourself and you encourage irresponsible behaviour.
    I'm sorry that I was unable to make an understandable description. Unfortunately my feeling is that you're simply too incompetent on driving technique to understand the difficulties and threats that await you. I have clearly received a bit different education on driving than you, I have read several books on it, and I'm simply following advice of one of Europe's rally champions on safe driving, while you actually fit the description of a dangerous driver who is content with own 'slow and safe' manner of driving, but completely unprepared to save in emergency situations.

    And I do not encourage irresponsible behaviour, I keep explaining difficulties and threats of driving in particular conditions and benefits of gaining experience, while you insist on counting on blind luck that there won't be black ice, oil spills or that other driver will not enforce priority.


    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    Unfortunately with people like you, it usually takes killing someone to realise that you were being reckless.
    You have absolutely no idea how do I drive therefore you have no right to judge me.
    Also, I have made my license in a country where snowy winters, and water freezing on streets is a regular condition during 4 months a year, I simply had to learn how to deal with it and from my experience, it teaches a lot in general. Also I have seen fatal accidents that took place in good conditions, but never so far observed such accident on a road covered with snow. Many minor crashes yes, but no injuries. Police stats say the same, people usually get killed in good conditions, when they drive fast.

    You're also ignoring my question: what would you do if there is black ice? Would you resign from driving at all when there are cold temperatures outside? You see, from my point of view things are quite the opposite, you are the reckless driver who refuses to learn of threats of driving and how to deal with them, and you're simply counting on luck that nothing unexpected is going to happen. You are the one who plays the Russian roulette with a car, not me.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    :congrats:

    driving a car is the most dangerous thing we do by and large. each year many families are ruined by some oaf in a pimped up Corsa who thinks he is a superior driving god and has watched too many episodes of Top Gear.
    Because irresponsible politicians allowed driving tests that check and teach nothing!
    If you lived in Finland you would be forced to prove driving skills on sliding plate to get your driving license, the way I've learned and you refuse to acknowledge, because you're a total driving ignorant who refuses to learn and is safe only as long as nothing unexpected happens!
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    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    Because irresponsible politicians allowed driving tests that check and teach nothing!
    If you lived in Finland you would be forced to prove driving skills on sliding plate to get your driving license, the way I've learned and you refuse to acknowledge, because you're a total driving ignorant who refuses to learn and is safe only as long as nothing unexpected happens!
    you know nothing about me or my unblemished driving career. i hope you make it home safely.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    you know nothing about me or my unblemished driving career. i hope you make it home safely.
    Neither you know nothing about mine, and I hope you'll keep being lucky. I hope I'll be lucky, but I prefer to be prepared also for bad luck. That's why I paid for track days in the past.
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    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    Neither you know nothing about mine, and I hope you'll keep being lucky. I hope I'll be lucky, but I prefer to be prepared also for bad luck. That's why I paid for track days in the past.
    i have not learnt any fancy show-off tricks; i drive steadily and safely & do not try to impress or intimidate people with my driving.
 
 
 
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