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    (Original post by paul514)
    Look you have an ideological hard on for an Uber free market I get that, but I don’t care one way or the other.

    All I’m interested in is a pragmatic way to sort the issues.

    Doing the things you mentioned on housing will help it will not solve the issue, it’s not in the interest of the house builders and it does nothing for council housing.

    With that in mind that requires government to commission house building.

    Your suggestion for road maintenance and building is laughable, sorry but nothing more needs to be said on that.

    The figures are official ones on road building it’s 14 billion to fix pot holes on their own let alone the extra cost to relay roads.

    Of course this isn’t a two issue problem there is tens of structural problems like this that need to be sorted out
    Irrespective of whether the houses are built via the state taxation or by the private sector the problem remains permission, if the councils don't grant planning permission then tough **** nobody's building, it is not in the interest of builders to sit on land at all because all it does is reduce the liquidity of their assets, reduces their revenues because they aren't able to sell a house they haven't built, and reduces their profits, because profits require sales and it's intervention in the markets hampering that. Green belts restrict how much land can be built on in the first place and then councils do everything they can to prevent construction where it is allowed. Just down the road from me developers are wanting to build I think it's 140 new houses, the council is doing everything they can to stop it (meanwhile complaining about a lack of housing in the area).

    Fair enough with the roads, I've found £14bn by 2020, although many councils don't lack the money rather spend it on other things such as their bloated bureaucracy and for another local example a cycle path is currently being built from my nearest town through to the village and is now being extended to the next village, it's something nobody wanted and nobody will use costing millions which could have been used to fix the roads and is probably being used to justify the council tax increases, inefficiency and wasteful spending by councils probably sits in the billions.

    (Original post by YouMadBro!)
    x
    The bigger flaw with the logic is that not challenging the ideas probably gives more credibility than ignoring them, not arguing against them means that people can be more easily drawn to agreeing, after all they don't know why it's a bad idea, it gives the ideas credence by saying that you have no argument against it.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    So we just need to loosen up planning laws and the private sector will deliver all the affordable housing we need? What a ****ing lark.
    I guess the alternative is a continued shortage of housing because nothing is able to be built, if you prefer that be my guest, but you seem to much of an angry lefty to think that it's better to have less housing.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I guess the alternative is a continued shortage of housing because nothing is able to be built, if you prefer that be my guest, but you seem to much of an angry lefty to think that it's better to have less housing.
    Right, I forgot those were the only two options. How silly of me.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The bigger flaw with the logic is that not challenging the ideas probably gives more credibility than ignoring them, not arguing against them means that people can be more easily drawn to agreeing, after all they don't know why it's a bad idea, it gives the ideas credence by saying that you have no argument against it.
    Yeah I agree with you completely, by discussing ideas and evaluating them, you can see why some ideas are bad and hence learn from it. If ideas aren't discussed, people begin to follow them without understanding the point of it. This leads them to regress into them, bind it to their identity and shun anyone that thinks different, because anyone that thinks differently must be the worst person in the world.
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    (Original post by YouMadBro!)
    Yeah I agree with you completely, by discussing ideas and evaluating them, you can see why some ideas are bad and hence learn from it. If ideas aren't discussed, people begin to follow them without understanding the point of it. This leads them to regress into them, bind it to their identity and shun anyone that thinks different, because anyone that thinks differently must be the worst person in the world.
    Why do you assume a battle of ideas will select for the truth?
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    (Original post by "mature"student)
    Aren't we the only EU nation other than Greece who's wages are still below pre-crash levels? I mean we've had low growth economically, wage stagnation, the destruction of our social services, and the deficit still isn't (properly) eradicated. Perhaps we should of taken a more sensible, mainstream route and actually invested into our economy and our people.

    Even May has recognised this and is trying to move more towards one nation/social conservatism, and away from the extreme ultra Liberal hysteria that has affected the Tories and our economy in recent years.
    Until you look at the actual data and see that the "mainstream" Keynesian route lead to slower recovery for the most part and the countries that went down that route pretty much all have high unemployment so if instead of looking at real wages you look at real incomes you would likely get a different story. For instance the UK has real wages very slightly below 2007 rates, but unemployment is down considerable, whereas in say France real wages are up and so is unemployment. The high unemployment in places like France also has a long term effect, people who have already been out of work for years will likely remain out of work for some time and will be less productive when they do get work, the effects are expected to persist for decades.

    It's also worth noting that real wage stagnation does not necessarily equate to stagnant quality of life because with many creature comforts you get more for less money in real terms but from an accounting perspective they are identical. For instance if we compare the original iphone to the iphone 8, in real terms the 8 is slightly cheaper but for the sake of argument we will say they are the same and looking purely at monetary value that would suggest no increase in standard of living, but then you look at the spec sheet you have 6 times as many CPU cores with nearly 6 times the frequency, 16 times as much RAM, 16 times as much storage, you've gone from a 320*480 resolution to 1334*750, doubling the DPI such that it is now "retina", we've gone from a 2MP camera to 12MP with MASSIVE improvements beyond the resolution of the photos greatly increasing the quality plus a 7MP front camera, and let's not get started on the data side of things. On a pure price front the two products are identical, but there is a significant increase in quality of life added with that money. 10 years ago for free music you had to turn the radio on and listen to whatever was playing at the time, now you've got spotify so you can choose what you listen to, before you had to spend money buying CDs, now you can get high quality on demand music for $10 a month. We now have YouTube as a serious platform free to use given it's paid for through advertising, social networks make it easier to communicate, and because of our fancy phones with fast internet connections we can access this almost anywhere.

    I suspect that if sent back to 2007 most people would want to return to today very quickly.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The bigger flaw with the logic is that not challenging the ideas probably gives more credibility than ignoring them, not arguing against them means that people can be more easily drawn to agreeing, after all they don't know why it's a bad idea, it gives the ideas credence by saying that you have no argument against it.
    Again, NO!

    Your thinking is way too narrow, both need to be done and councils can be overruled on planning by the government which has been happening more and more. There are two big occasions for this in the last year in Birmingham alone where I live.

    Councils have had their budgets cut from central government and given local revenue raising powers which don’t fill the gap, what planet are you living on? My local council has two billion of debt.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Snowflake.
    cuck
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Why do you assume a battle of ideas will select for the truth?
    What truth are you talking about? I'm talking about debating socio-economic policies, not court cases.
    I think free, open, even-leveled debate of different socio-economic policies will choose the best policies to put into practice. Through debate, weak policies are exposed to have weak foundations and so then can be discarded or evolved to a better policy.
    If we can't debate ideas, what are the alternative methods to find the best policies?

    I'm still interested to hear why you think being a communist is commendable, considering, like fascism, millions of people were killed in its name.
    (the fact that you are not answering this question brings up the thought that you do not think being a communist is commendable and regretting making that comment).

    Have I also started to change your mind of the damage that can be done by calling someone you disagree with a slur? Do you still think there's no point debating with someone on the other side of the aisle and that they can not change their opinion?
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    SARCASM TOGGLE ON

    Guess after Brexit we can have austerity all over again. Make the disabled jump though hoops and get Katie Hopkins back on TV to tell the alleged scroungers what for. It will be lovely. We can pride ourselves knowing that we are the only country in peace time that has committed gross violations against disabled peoples human rights. Not many other countries can boast of that; well apart from Ghana & Hitlers Germany ..... but they don't count because we have British exceptionalism and are best at everything!

    All rise for the national anthem lalalalalallaalala. Ok enough of that.

    Don't see this as a negative thing. This country could build an economy based around the development of euthanasia solutions. We could become a world leader. I'm sure Ben Bradley MP would approve. Have to write to him and ask.

    Everyone who disagrees is just against business and this wonderful Conservative Government we have.

    SARCASM TOGGLE OFF
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    SARCASM TOGGLE ON

    Guess after Brexit we can have austerity all over again. Make the disabled jump though hoops and get Katie Hopkins back on TV to tell the alleged scroungers what for. It will be lovely. We can pride ourselves knowing that we are the only country in peace time that has committed gross violations against disabled peoples human rights. Not many other countries can boast of that; well apart from Ghana & Hitlers Germany ..... but they don't count because we have British exceptionalism and are best at everything!

    All rise for the national anthem lalalalalallaalala. Ok enough of that.

    Don't see this as a negative thing. This country could build an economy based around the development of euthanasia solutions. We could become a world leader. I'm sure Ben Bradley MP would approve. Have to write to him and ask.

    Everyone who disagrees is just against business and this wonderful Conservative Government we have.

    SARCASM TOGGLE OFF

    Well austerity is the EU's policy, they force members to have a deficit under 3% and write an austerity budget for Greece despite them electing a far-left government.

    Cutting disability benefits has nothing to do with Brexit.
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    (Original post by jamal tyrone)
    cuck
    That is one of the few insults that makes the person making the insult look worse :laugh:
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    (Original post by YouMadBro!)
    What truth are you talking about? I'm talking about debating socio-economic policies, not court cases.
    I think free, open, even-leveled debate of different socio-economic policies will choose the best policies to put into practice. Through debate, weak policies are exposed to have weak foundations and so then can be discarded or evolved to a better policy.
    If we can't debate ideas, what are the alternative methods to find the best policies?

    I'm still interested to hear why you think being a communist is commendable, considering, like fascism, millions of people were killed in its name.
    (the fact that you are not answering this question brings up the thought that you do not think being a communist is commendable and regretting making that comment).

    Have I also started to change your mind of the damage that can be done by calling someone you disagree with a slur? Do you still think there's no point debating with someone on the other side of the aisle and that they can not change their opinion?
    Well I assume you think the battle of ideas is supposed to arrive at some kind of truth. Otherwise what is the point in this battle fo ideas exaclty? For exmaple in Physics you get thoeries that suvive thought experiments and emprical experiments. In philisophy you get ideas make logically stronger. In history you get consensus emerging on how to interpret events. Quite why you think that the battle of ideas outside a expert academic communities (which have there limitations themselves) will mimic the genderal discourse is beyond me. In fact meme thoery (which comes out of biology) pretty stongly shows how ideas can spread that have no basis in reality. Racism is an example and I would argue the belief in specific gods is another.

    Communism is based on the ideal of equality and freedom. Fascism is based on domination and rigid opressive social structures that must be enforced brutally. It is one of the few political ideologies that is explicity about creating a society that is based on subjigating people (racism is another one, which fascism itself adopts). Most other ideologies such as conservatism, liberalism or libertarianism tend to be about attempting to maximise atleast one positive trait, freedom being a common one. Fascism does not concern itself with such degenerate ideals, humanity needs the boot pressed against its neck.

    The crimes of capitalism easily mirror those documented in the black book of communism. SO if you want to get on a what killed more poeple it's pretty much a wash.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Well I assume you think the battle of ideas is supposed to arrive at some kind of truth. Otherwise what is the point in this battle fo ideas exaclty? For exmaple in Physics you get thoeries that suvive thought experiments and emprical experiments. In philisophy you get ideas make logically stronger. In history you get consensus emerging on how to interpret events. Quite why you think that the battle of ideas outside a expert academic communities (which have there limitations themselves) will mimic the genderal discourse is beyond me. In fact meme thoery (which comes out of biology) pretty stongly shows how ideas can spread that have no basis in reality. Racism is an example and I would argue the belief in specific gods is another.
    "Battle", why is everything you consider so violent and aggressive.

    On an individual level, by debating ideas you can see other people's viewpoints. You can evaluate their values to your own and see if you think their values are much better or if yours is better, hence reinforcing your values (you know why you have a value and why it is important, not just society demands of me to hold this value).
    Those that hold racist beliefs/bigoted, do not like to debate. Why? Because when they do, they know that their views are going to be crushed and shown for how weak the foundations their built upon are. These people tie their identity to their values (essentially are fanatics), so do not like to be shown their values are baseless because to them it means their identity is baseless.
    Tell a white supremacist that the colour of skin means s***, and they'd be pis**d off because that is probably the only thing the low life valued about themselves. So essentially, by debating ideas you, yourself, can grow as a person.

    But obviously as a communist, individuality means nothing to you, so here's why it's important for society. "In fact meme thoery (which comes out of biology) pretty stongly shows how ideas can spread that have no basis in reality." What I'm saying is that these ideas can only exist because these people who hold views with no basis in reality haven't debated or seen a good enough reason not believe in them. By debating those that hold that viewpoint, you show those around you why it's better not hold those values with no basis in reality. You can't show them that it has no basis in reality without debating them first.

    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Communism is based on the ideal of equality and freedom. Fascism is based on domination and rigid opressive social structures that must be enforced brutally. It is one of the few political ideologies that is explicity about creating a society that is based on subjigating people (racism is another one, which fascism itself adopts). Most other ideologies such as conservatism, liberalism or libertarianism tend to be about attempting to maximise atleast one positive trait, freedom being a common one. Fascism does not concern itself with such degenerate ideals, humanity needs the boot pressed against its neck.

    The crimes of capitalism easily mirror those documented in the black book of communism. SO if you want to get on a what killed more poeple it's pretty much a wash.
    We both agree that fascism is an evil ideology but I also think communism is also an evil ideology. We both agree that freedom is a positive trait, but what I think you fail to realise how much communism encroached on personal freedoms, like fascism.

    Communism had to enforce lots of censorship (encroaching on freedom of speech), because any dissenting views about the state, was going to damage the state. Intellectual diversity was prevented by enforcing brutal punishments to anyone that disagreed. They also enforced a rigid system, because anyone who seemed like a high flyer could lead a revolution that would bring about damage to the state.

    The famous animal farm quote, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" is the perfect description of communism.
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    (Original post by YouMadBro!)
    "Battle", why is everything you consider so violent and aggressive.
    It's a natural selection process. A battle is a good anology. Plus politics is what we do instead of killing each other. For some people it is literally life and death. RIP the 100000+ dead peope from austerity. The enemy makes it aggressive. It might be some game for them, but it is very real for those who have to live with thier consequences.

    Goerge Orwell was a socialist you twit, and not in the wishy washy labour party way. He was well to the left of the labour party and was pro giving the working class guns and wanted the British working class to copy Spain's revolutionary working class when world war 2 kicked off. I've got his books on my bookshelf and Homage to Catalonia is one of the big reasons I am a commie. His quote on how you can only combat fascism with socialism is in my TSR signiture XD

    Animal farm is ok as a basic idea (revolution betrayed, which is easily arguable considering how 1917-1921 went in Russia) and bit of propoganda against the Soviet Union (who we were unctrically allied to at the time) , but doesn't accuraty reflect 20th century communist revolutions. The general notion of a betrayal of the working class is fine. But it treets anyone who isn' a pig (ie a intelligentsia revolutionary) as being clueless and stupid, which given his experience in spain he should have known doesn't reflet what was going on. He also liked to dob in leftists to the UK government so was also a cop in his later years. Also 1984 is bad and an unimaginative work of science fiction. Brave New World was also better at preditcting where we were heading.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    x.
    I *love* how you just brush over most of my points because they challenge your viewpoint, and you're too proud to admit it.
    Please acknowledge if you understand the importance of the debate of ideas, and the negatives of communism like the systematic shutdown of intellectual diversity.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    It's a natural selection process. A battle is a good anology. Plus politics is what we do instead of killing each other. For some people it is literally life and death. RIP the 100000+ dead peope from austerity. The enemy makes it aggressive. It might be some game for them, but it is very real for those who have to live with thier consequences.

    Goerge Orwell was a socialist you twit, and not in the wishy washy labour party way. He was well to the left of the labour party and was pro giving the working class guns and wanted the British working class to copy Spain's revolutionary working class when world war 2 kicked off. I've got his books on my bookshelf and Homage to Catalonia is one of the big reasons I am a commie. His quote on how you can only combat fascism with socialism is in my TSR signiture XD

    Animal farm is ok as a basic idea (revolution betrayed, which is easily arguable considering how 1917-1921 went in Russia) and bit of propoganda against the Soviet Union (who we were unctrically allied to at the time) , but doesn't accuraty reflect 20th century communist revolutions. The general notion of a betrayal of the working class is fine. But it treets anyone who isn' a pig (ie a intelligentsia revolutionary) as being clueless and stupid, which given his experience in spain he should have known doesn't reflet what was going on. He also liked to dob in leftists to the UK government so was also a cop in his later years. Also 1984 is bad and an unimaginative work of science fiction. Brave New World was also better at preditcting where we were heading.
    Politics has always been a game to me. Just like moving pieces around a chess board. Plan ahead, make the right moves and you will win every time.

    I'm rather shocked that you've now switched from a Green to a Communist. Then again you was in favour of Agenda 21 few years ago if I remember correctly.

    The way things are going you might get your Communist uprising. I haven't been on TSR because I've been spending my time pro-actively preparing for a change which may catch most people off guard. This change is the rapid onset of a mini-ice age which could be in full effect by 2030. During this time food prices will go though the roof and there will be huge political unrest.

    Communism won't be the solution though because due to crypto-currencies the top 15% of the population will be able to move their capital out of the UK to warmer locations like New Zealand. There will be a huge exodus of capital towards New Zealand and Australia. So Communism won't have much capital to use.

    The only people who are going to do well out of this scenario is people who study STEM fields.
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    (Original post by DeBruyne18)
    Disagree. We had huge debts after WWII. Far greater than what we have now. Instead of a austerity we built hundreds of thousands of houses, a welfare state and the NHS. The debt shrank. This was the era which you said was superior to the one we have now.

    The idea that you need austerity to pay the debts down is economically false.
    The UK also had colonies in a closed market and few competitors internationally.
    Energy and raw materials were cheap; we didn't care about pollution; security standards were low. We could built endlessly.
    There were not as many pensioners as today, so public spending could be used on building houses and free healthcare. Now we have to spend this money on their pension.
    Few people went to university, or even high school. As a result, the cost of education was much lower overall, and free.

    It is useless to compare the current situation with that of Clement Attlee. What he did was right (and I'm very right wing), but the country and the world have changed; the old recipes are not relevant anymore.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    Politics has always been a game to me. Just like moving pieces around a chess board. Plan ahead, make the right moves and you will win every time.

    I'm rather shocked that you've now switched from a Green to a Communist. Then again you was in favour of Agenda 21 few years ago if I remember correctly.

    The way things are going you might get your Communist uprising. I haven't been on TSR because I've been spending my time pro-actively preparing for a change which may catch most people off guard. This change is the rapid onset of a mini-ice age which could be in full effect by 2030. During this time food prices will go though the roof and there will be huge political unrest.

    Communism won't be the solution though because due to crypto-currencies the top 15% of the population will be able to move their capital out of the UK to warmer locations like New Zealand. There will be a huge exodus of capital towards New Zealand and Australia. So Communism won't have much capital to use.

    The only people who are going to do well out of this scenario is people who study STEM fields.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    Politics has always been a game to me. Just like moving pieces around a chess board. Plan ahead, make the right moves and you will win every time.
    Sun Tzu is that you?


    The way things are going you might get your Communist uprising. I haven't been on TSR because I've been spending my time pro-actively preparing for a change which may catch most people off guard. This change is the rapid onset of a mini-ice age which could be in full effect by 2030. During this time food prices will go though the roof and there will be huge political unrest.
    You sound rather like one of those fellows with a bunker full of guns in their back garden...

    Communism won't be the solution though because due to crypto-currencies the top 15% of the population will be able to move their capital out of the UK to warmer locations like New Zealand. There will be a huge exodus of capital towards New Zealand and Australia. So Communism won't have much capital to use.
    You say warmer but remember we have a fair few ski fields down here.
 
 
 
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