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Tony Blair's own poll shows 66% want to leave the EU 'at whatever cost' watch

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    To be frank I hope we do leave at whatever cost - solely to spite the small island fascists who voted to leave anyway. Lets see how you live on 'good British democracy' when you have no job and you'll have to pay foreigners to take your money.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Most of the leave at whatever cost crowd are old, retired and have money and good pensions and property.

    Its the younger people who need jobs that will suffer if companies move to another country or downsize or don't invest in the first place. Just look at the govt that crow every time a car company invests but never talk about when they sack workers or close a factory.
    Ah, entitlement. Why does the opinion of the older generation matter any less than us young ones. I would actually argue quite differently, I think there are a hell of a lot of stupid, ill educated and sheep-like young people who follow a particular agenda because they reproduce the attitudes of their peers and demographic rather than forming their own researched opinion (Look at millennial protests against Trump, they can hardly put together a cohesive argument against his politics other than 'Racist!'). On the contrary, the Elders are experienced. They built what we now have and their input is extremely valuable and important. Just because you don't agree with their viewpoint doesn't make it any less valid than your own.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    If you're so certain sterling will go down, why don't you invest in it.
    Because that would be stupid, if I had some money I would put it into shares or gold, definitely not sterling.
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    (Original post by Forestieri)
    Ah, entitlement. Why does the opinion of the older generation matter any less than us young ones. I would actually argue quite differently, I think there are a hell of a lot of stupid, ill educated and sheep-like young people who follow a particular agenda because they reproduce the attitudes of their peers and demographic rather than forming their own researched opinion (Look at millennial protests against Trump, they can hardly put together a cohesive argument against his politics other than 'Racist!'. On the contrary, the Elders are experienced. They built what we now have and their input is extremely valuable and important. Just because you don't agree with their viewpoint doesn't make it any less valid than your own.
    I am pretty old now but I would not vote to make a worst future for my kids.

    You don't have to be a liberal to see how stupid Trump is, he is trying to screw the British economy right now but will end up screwing far more dumb ass Americans that voted for him.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    I'm in favour of brexit, I was responding to the argument costs of living would increase by explaining what we could do to reduce them. If you think I'm incorrect, please tell me.


    If VAT was lowered, yes there would be a fall in revenues however cash-in-hand to avoid it is common and more people would be more honest if more affordable. If everyday costs were reduced we could reduce welfare spending for a start.


    Really VAT is a separate question, the point is we will control it.
    There is s tendency to make out like signing trade deals will be the easiest thing in the world and we'll have half a dozen wonderful deals signed up the day after leaving. No acknowledgement of the realities.
    Well you're going to generate less tax and will have to increase some other tax to compensate.
    The point is we have set our own Vat rates for some time. Why would we change it l?
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    (Original post by Maker)
    A prolonged devaluation of sterling and higher inflation will erode everyone's money as it has already

    What resources do they have in Scotland? If it get more expense to import raw materials, then manufacturers will relocate to somewhere where its cheaper to do so.

    A low wage Britain will make everyone poorer and the better educated will migrate to countries where they can get more money, Vietnam makes lots of cheap things for export, its not a rich country.

    The govt is keen to do trade deals with the US and the US will no doubt demand and get better access to the UK for their food exports, they have lower food standards and will undercut UK producers.
    Everyone's money has not been eroded - that is an obvious exaggeration of the truth. Everyone's money is not going to be eroded without a massive increase in inflation, and that is not forcast to happen. It is extremely unlikely that this will occur.

    There are about 200 million tonnes worth of construction and industrial materials in the UK, along with a lot of oil and natural gases in Scotland and the North of England. If these aren't enough or if manufacturers have to import other materials, they will not move to other counties completely based on a short term hike in price. It is too much trouble to up and leave based on a small and temporary increase on the price of importations.

    The better educated are not going to leave the country - they have property, family, and a career here. The incentive to leave everything behind is not higher enough - at worst, a recession will hit, and at best, new business opportunities and ventures will flourish. People do not just leave countries in bulk during a recession - if they did, people would have left Europe during the long and damaging Eurozone crisis.

    The UK's wage rates will not fall to the wage rates of Vietnam - they are completely different economies and comparing them is illogical. Vietnam is a state capitalist country and now relies heavily on sweatshop work to produce any goods at all. The goods and services Vietnam and the UK provide are world's apart from eachother.

    Let's say that this trade deal with the US happens, and the US providers undercut UK providers. The consumer wins in this situation - they have more choice to either buy a quality British product or a low quality but cheap American product. Not everyone is immediately going to choose the American product - there is more to produce than just it's cost. Also, there is a lot of regulation on Amercian business - literally tens of thousands of pages worth of American regulation - so I doubt that they will be able to undercut UK prices in the first place, and I also doubt that their food will be of a considerably lower quality than ours.

    Much of what you've said is over playing the reality of the situation at hand. The comparison to Vietnam is not at all applicable and everyone suddenly leaving in the face of slight economic downturn seems extremely unlikely.
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    (Original post by munchm_)
    Everyone's money has not been eroded - that is an obvious exaggeration of the truth. Everyone's money is not going to be eroded without a massive increase in inflation, and that is not forcast to happen. It is extremely unlikely that this will occur.

    There are about 200 million tonnes worth of construction and industrial materials in the UK, along with a lot of oil and natural gases in Scotland and the North of England. If these aren't enough or if manufacturers have to import other materials, they will not move to other counties completely based on a short term hike in price. It is too much trouble to up and leave based on a small and temporary increase on the price of importations.

    The better educated are not going to leave the country - they have property, family, and a career here. The incentive to leave everything behind is not higher enough - at worst, a recession will hit, and at best, new business opportunities and ventures will flourish. People do not just leave countries in bulk during a recession - if they did, people would have left Europe during the long and damaging Eurozone crisis.

    The UK's wage rates will not fall to the wage rates of Vietnam - they are completely different economies and comparing them is illogical. Vietnam is a state capitalist country and now relies heavily on sweatshop work to produce any goods at all. The goods and services Vietnam and the UK provide are world's apart from eachother.

    Let's say that this trade deal with the US happens, and the US providers undercut UK providers. The consumer wins in this situation - they have more choice to either buy a quality British product or a low quality but cheap American product. Not everyone is immediately going to choose the American product - there is more to produce than just it's cost. Also, there is a lot of regulation on Amercian business - literally tens of thousands of pages worth of American regulation - so I doubt that they will be able to undercut UK prices in the first place, and I also doubt that their food will be of a considerably lower quality than ours.

    Much of what you've said is over playing the reality of the situation at hand. The comparison to Vietnam is not at all applicable and everyone suddenly leaving in the face of slight economic downturn seems extremely unlikely.
    The oil doesn't belong to the country, it belongs to private companies that extract the oil and the problem with oil is there is plenty of it so the price is low at the moment and it makes the earth hotter so it might not be such a great asset if it can't be used. Not sure what all that building stuff is for. What are you going to build?

    When Ireland had its crisis after 2008, tens of thousands of young people had to leave because they couldn't find jobs, Britain is the slowest growing major economy and while there are plenty of low paid and zero hour jobs, getting a secure well paying job is a problem for a lot of young and not so young people. People with property can easily let that out and move to a different country.
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    (Original post by DeBruyne18)
    There is s tendency to make out like signing trade deals will be the easiest thing in the world and we'll have half a dozen wonderful deals signed up the day after leaving. No acknowledgement of the realities.
    Well you're going to generate less tax and will have to increase some other tax to compensate.
    The point is we have set our own Vat rates for some time. Why would we change it l?

    I didn't mention trade deals, I was taking about tariffs applied on other countries, which we could reduce on the day we leave.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    I didn't mention trade deals, I was taking about tariffs applied on other countries, which we could reduce on the day we leave.
    Where are you getting the money to reduce tariffs?
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    Brexit is beginning to stink; it is like a child which needs its nappy changing at a party and no-one wishes to point out the fact to the parents.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    Brexit is beginning to stink; it is like a child which needs its nappy changing at a party and no-one wishes to point out the fact to the parents.
    Tell me about it.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    The oil doesn't belong to the country, it belongs to private companies that extract the oil and the problem with oil is there is plenty of it so the price is low at the moment and it makes the earth hotter so it might not be such a great asset if it can't be used. Not sure what all that building stuff is for. What are you going to build?

    When Ireland had its crisis after 2008, tens of thousands of young people had to leave because they couldn't find jobs, Britain is the slowest growing major economy and while there are plenty of low paid and zero hour jobs, getting a secure well paying job is a problem for a lot of young and not so young people. People with property can easily let that out and move to a different country.
    The oil companies that extract the oil create jobs and investment in the country. The price of oil has been increasing lately and is set to increase further in the coming years. I'm not going to get into climate science here, but whether or not the oil is extracted the Earth's temperature will continue to rise regardless.

    Earlier, you said that Britain did not have the investment or materials to make exportation on a larger scale economical - I have shown with this that it clearly does with the millions of tonnes of material that we have and the billions in recent investment. Why does that not seem to matter now?

    Ireland was hit way harder than any other European country by the economic crisis of 2008, which led to it's deficit being much higher than any other European country, and it is an extreme example yet again. We are not going to have the deficit that they had in 2008. Regardless, the majority of people that left the country were recent immigrant workers, many of whom have more flexibility than the native born Irish and many of whom were not going to stay there forever anyway.

    Britain isn't the slowest growing major economy. It is growing slowly, but literally all of the major economies are growing slowly right now. Here is a list of major economies that are growing at a slower rate than the UK's right now -
    Belgium
    France
    Japan
    Italy
    Switzerland
    Brazil

    Real wage growth is not uniquely a UK problem, either - it is dropping all over the developed world. The US, France, and Italy have all seen real wage growth drops and stagnation recently just to name a few, whilst developing but large economies like Brazil and Russia are seeing great increases in real wage growth.

    People with property are sure as hell not going to just up and leave it, either. You're lucky to own a home in this country, currently. People will not be willing to leave property behind like that so easily.
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    (Original post by munchm_)
    The oil companies that extract the oil create jobs and investment in the country. The price of oil has been increasing lately and is set to increase further in the coming years. I'm not going to get into climate science here, but whether or not the oil is extracted the Earth's temperature will continue to rise regardless.

    Earlier, you said that Britain did not have the investment or materials to make exportation on a larger scale economical - I have shown with this that it clearly does with the millions of tonnes of material that we have and the billions in recent investment. Why does that not seem to matter now?

    Ireland was hit way harder than any other European country by the economic crisis of 2008, which led to it's deficit being much higher than any other European country, and it is an extreme example yet again. We are not going to have the deficit that they had in 2008. Regardless, the majority of people that left the country were recent immigrant workers, many of whom have more flexibility than the native born Irish and many of whom were not going to stay there forever anyway.

    Britain isn't the slowest growing major economy. It is growing slowly, but literally all of the major economies are growing slowly right now. Here is a list of major economies that are growing at a slower rate than the UK's right now -
    Belgium
    France
    Japan
    Italy
    Switzerland
    Brazil

    Real wage growth is not uniquely a UK problem, either - it is dropping all over the developed world. The US, France, and Italy have all seen real wage growth drops and stagnation recently just to name a few, whilst developing but large economies like Brazil and Russia are seeing great increases in real wage growth.

    People with property are sure as hell not going to just up and leave it, either. You're lucky to own a home in this country, currently. People will not be willing to leave property behind like that so easily.
    Britain is growing slower than Greece and brexiters are always complaining about Greece being a victim of the EU. Having a lot of oil is great but its a finite resource, Scotland offshore oil is already well past its peak and will decline over the next decades.

    Where do you get the idea people just leave their property when they migrate, they either sell it or let it out, doh!
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Britain is growing slower than Greece and brexiters are always complaining about Greece being a victim of the EU. Having a lot of oil is great but its a finite resource, Scotland offshore oil is already well past its peak and will decline over the next decades.

    Where do you get the idea people just leave their property when they migrate, they either sell it or let it out, doh!

    Growth for an isolated period isn't a measure of which country is doing best (it's easier for smaller GDPs to have high growth).


    Greece GDP per capita is $28,000, for us it's $43,600. Their unemployment rate is 21%, ours is 4%.

    I don't think you can seriously claim Greece has done better than us.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    Growth for an isolated period isn't a measure of which country is doing best (it's easier for smaller GDPs to have high growth).


    Greece GDP per capita is $28,000, for us it's $43,600. Their unemployment rate is 21%, ours is 4%.

    I don't think you can seriously claim Greece has done better than us.
    Brexiters claim Greece should leave the EU to get a better economy but that doesn't seem to be the case does it?
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Brexiters claim Greece should leave the EU to get a better economy but that doesn't seem to be the case does it?

    Brexiters aren't a separate race who all think exactly the same things.


    Clearly the euro has been a huge failure destroying Greece, they should have left and had a currency they can devalue, and long term things would improve. Today in the Italian elections we will see a surge in anti-Euro parties.

    It didn't happen because Greece was run as a satelite state from the EU, forcing austerity and continued euro membership. No wonder out of their top three parties are extreme far-left and far-right parties.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Britain is growing slower than Greece and brexiters are always complaining about Greece being a victim of the EU. Having a lot of oil is great but its a finite resource, Scotland offshore oil is already well past its peak and will decline over the next decades.

    Where do you get the idea people just leave their property when they migrate, they either sell it or let it out, doh!
    I cannot speak for anyone else, but Greece is quite obviously a victim to poor spending and a bad debt to GDP ratio. The crisis has little to do with EU membership.

    Economic growth fluctuates and changes. Where there is room for growth, there will be plenty. Greece has a lot of room for growth during it's recovery from this recent crisis. However, you've completely ignored the many major economic blocs with slower growth that I noted, many with much more influence than the Greek economy.

    Yes, oil is a finite resource, but it is a resource none the less. It's doing us no good if we just let it sit there. And, as I already mentioned, oil prices are increasing again.

    This is exactly what I'm saying - they leave property behind by selling it or letting it out. People have saved up long and hard for the property they own, and many others are midway through paying the mortgage. They will not just leave it behind in the face of slight economic hardship if there even is any. This is not the only country where it is difficult to buy a house.

    If they let out the house for rent and move to another country, they have to make sure that tenant stays and pays regularly for the accommodation, since they will use that to supplement their new home or accommodation. Not to mention that looking after a home for a tenant is much harder when you're overseas - if they have complaints, you're literally hundreds of miles away. It's impractical since it launches the tenant into safety/quality concern that will eventually drive them out of the home, which in turn will launch the homeowner into economic uncertainty.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Lowering tariffs on food will hit UK farmers hard and drive some out of business, the Tory govt will never do that because they get a lot of support from farmers. If they lower tariffs, they will have to increase support for farmers which means more taxation or borrowing.

    Unfortunately, british agriculture is not competitive in the world market, however there are big benefits to keeping it, for environmental reasons and helping tourism and the local economies. We may have to increase subsidies to farms when we reduce tariffs, at the moment the EU allocates based on how much land you own. We could start by redistributing this so smaller farms that struggle more have more help.



    Lowering VAT means more taxes elsewhere, where do you think should those taxes come from?

    I think we should have a tax on revenues of the biggest corporations that operate here but base themselves elsewhere to avoid tax. If we cut spending by ending EU contributions, scrapping HS2 and reducing foreign aid there would be tens of billions freed up for tax cuts if the government chose to.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    Unfortunately, british agriculture is not competitive in the world market, however there are big benefits to keeping it, for environmental reasons and helping tourism and the local economies. We may have to increase subsidies to farms when we reduce tariffs, at the moment the EU allocates based on how much land you own. We could start by redistributing this so smaller farms that struggle more have more help.






    I think we should have a tax on revenues of the biggest corporations that operate here but base themselves elsewhere to avoid tax. If we cut spending by ending EU contributions, scrapping HS2 and reducing foreign aid there would be tens of billions freed up for tax cuts if the government chose to.
    It would be cheaper for the govt to let farms fail and buy them up cheap and manage the land for environmental purposes.

    I don't think the UK govt can afford to increase corporation tax, it need all the companies to stay in the UK, not make them leave. Foreign aid is subsidising exports in disguise.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    It would be cheaper for the govt to let farms fail and buy them up cheap and manage the land for environmental purposes.

    I don't think the UK govt can afford to increase corporation tax, it need all the companies to stay in the UK, not make them leave. Foreign aid is subsidising exports in disguise.

    I don't want corporation tax increased, but by taxing revenues (not profit) will make companies like facebook (which will not want to stop operating here as they will simply lose that profit) pay a fair amount of tax.

    In 2016, they had revenues of £842m in the UK but only paid £5.1 in tax. By the way, this shouldn't apply to medium and small businesses.
 
 
 
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