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Civil disobedience may be the only way to save the country from the hard right watch

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    As Nick Cohen points out today in the Guardian, the current government are hopelessly in the grip of a minority extremist Right bloc of self-confessed liars.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...cking-liberals

    May is now determined apparently to lead us headlong into a horrible economic crisis, because she is too weak to face down economically clueless Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson, Liam Fox and Michael Gove - between them, these men and Theresa May are pushing Britain over a cliff.

    We will not (according to May) be remaining in a customs union. So we face huge delays in future to enter and leave Europe, heavy tariffs and sharp declines in UK trade, leading to significant increases in unemployment, reduced opportunities for graduates and bizarre 'Singapore model' economy, with the hedge funds in Mayfair flourishing and entire sectors of the rest of the country going to hell in a handbasket.

    It is now clear that there is no willingness whatever in the Tory leadership to take into account that the difference in the referendum was slight and they are clearly going to completely ignore all warnings and address only the views of Rees-Mogg and his bizarre group of whacky hardliners, europhobes and economic fantasists.

    They are also prepared to destroy the Good Friday Agreement and impose a hard border (the inevitable result of their policy) in Northern Ireland and most likely to crash the economy of Ireland as well.

    We probably will need to blockade Parliament or similar, as there is no willingness to listen, to take on Remainer views or to even show a willingness to properly negotiate. We are in the grip of weak leadership at the top, capitulating to internal party extremism. The old struggles within the Tory Party, which have been ridiculous since the last days of Thatcher, are now about to destroy the British economy and we are supposed to quietly sleep walk into it, like sheep.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    As Nick Cohen points out
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    I'm neither either or there on Brexit, whatever will be will be but one thing makes me curious:

    What should we sacrifice as part of the divorce? Remainers have a wish-list of things to keep to an extent that they seem to talk about a Brexit in name but no more.

    Can someone name what we should be severing ties on, maybe we can work the list the way up instead. Starting with...
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    We probably will need to blockade Parliament or similar, as there is no willingness to listen, to take on Remainer views or to even show a willingness to properly negotiate.
    That is the result of an unregulated democracy.

    If we examine it closely, we see that the people themselves have no original convictions of their own. Their convictions are formed - the question is who "enlightens" them? Who "educates" them?

    Capital rules the UK. The clique of a few dozen super-rich individuals - including a former KGB agent - control the majority of our "free press".

    This is what capitalists mean when they speak of liberty. Liberty to not only acquire capital through dubious means, but to spend it in dubious means, even to manipulate the fabric of society itself, to manipulate democracy.

    A little crowd around Westminster isn't going to solve our problems. We need to cut the massive influence that the super-rich leverage.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    As Nick Cohen points out today in the Guardian, the current government are hopelessly in the grip of a minority extremist Right bloc of self-confessed liars.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...cking-liberals

    May is now determined apparently to lead us headlong into a horrible economic crisis, because she is too weak to face down economically clueless Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson, Liam Fox and Michael Gove - between them, these men and Theresa May are pushing Britain over a cliff.

    We will not (according to May) be remaining in a customs union. So we face huge delays in future to enter and leave Europe, heavy tariffs and sharp declines in UK trade, leading to significant increases in unemployment, reduced opportunities for graduates and bizarre 'Singapore model' economy, with the hedge funds in Mayfair flourishing and entire sectors of the rest of the country going to hell in a handbasket.

    It is now clear that there is no willingness whatever in the Tory leadership to take into account that the difference in the referendum was slight and they are clearly going to completely ignore all warnings and address only the views of Rees-Mogg and his bizarre group of whacky hardliners, europhobes and economic fantasists.

    They are also prepared to destroy the Good Friday Agreement and impose a hard border (the inevitable result of their policy) in Northern Ireland and most likely to crash the economy of Ireland as well.

    We probably will need to blockade Parliament or similar, as there is no willingness to listen, to take on Remainer views or to even show a willingness to properly negotiate. We are in the grip of weak leadership at the top, capitulating to internal party extremism. The old struggles within the Tory Party, which have been ridiculous since the last days of Thatcher, are now about to destroy the British economy and we are supposed to quietly sleep walk into it, like sheep.
    There is similarly no willingness among the stop-Brexit crowd to recognise that they lost.

    Really, that is all there is to it. All these arguments were made in the referendum campaign, but you still lost, and now we are going to do what we were promised we would do, which is leave the EU and all that entails.
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    In other words, you want to confront the hard right by being hard left?
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    Brexit's Mum gives a discount to Millwall supporters.
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    There is similarly no willingness among the stop-Brexit crowd to recognise that they lost.

    Really, that is all there is to it. All these arguments were made in the referendum campaign, but you still lost, and now we are going to do what we were promised we would do, which is leave the EU and all that entails.
    If you're that reliant on an outcome, would you be opposed to having a second referendum?
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    The centrist slugs such as Cohen should realise Labour are thier best bet of salvaging brexit. I mean, Micheal Hestletine has managed it.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    The centrist slugs such as Cohen should realise Labour are thier best bet of salvaging brexit. I mean, Micheal Hestletine has managed it.
    You mean sabotaging, not salvaging. Or reversing.

    This is a contradiction in terms, Corbyn and McDonnell have always opposed the euro-federalist project, need to get out in order to embark on the re-nationalization wave, their revolutionary ambitions will be severely constrained by membership of the capitalist club... and they are going to keep us in? Why?

    They're bluffing but it will come back to bite them the moment they really have to make a firm stand on anything. So far, it's all hot air.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    The centrist slugs such as Cohen should realise Labour are thier best bet of salvaging brexit. I mean, Micheal Hestletine has managed it.
    Labour are still not really willing to do what is needed. Corbyn is not talking for example about staying in the Customs Union, which is what will need to happen, but in "a" customs union, which is deeply implausible. He's pipe dreaming almost as much as Rees-Mogg.
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    So we need civil disobedience because you didn’t agree with a vote. Hmmmm
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    (Original post by Less(e/o)n)
    In other words, you want to confront the hard right by being hard left?
    It wouldn't be the hard left, an alliance of realists is what is needed - at present, the country is being held hostage by a weird coalition of hard right Tories, the DUP and UKIP. Yet they are only a small minority both within Parliament and the country as a whole. They are extremists, but our feckless Prime Minister is too weak to do anything about them other than grovel.

    We need to save her from herself and the UK from the robber band who have temporarily captured it.
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    (Original post by Andrew97)
    So we need civil disobedience because you didn’t agree with a vote. Hmmmm
    Note that I never once said "to stay in the EU" - I am talking about what is necessary to avoid us plunging into the mother of all recessions. How bizarre that a Tory government is ignoring the interests of business, the economy and our prosperity to serve the twisted agendas of radical conspiracy theorists and clueless anti-economists.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It wouldn't be the hard left, an alliance of realists is what is needed - at present, the country is being held hostage by a weird coalition of hard right Tories, the DUP and UKIP. Yet they are only a small minority both within Parliament and the country as a whole. They are extremists, but our feckless Prime Minister is too weak to do anything about them other than grovel.

    We need to save her from herself and the UK from the robber band who have temporarily captured it.

    You want the people to take control froma 'small unrepresentative group', but yet you don't respect the EU referendum. It seems what you really want is to replace them with another small group but doing the things you want.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    You want the people to take control froma 'small unrepresentative group', but yet you don't respect the EU referendum. It seems what you really want is to replace them with another small group but doing the things you want.
    I am talking about the way the Leave talks are being conducted. The government's approach is the extreme hard brexit that will crash this country. If that's what you want, fine, but most people don't, including most people who voted Leave.
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    (Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
    If you're that reliant on an outcome, would you be opposed to having a second referendum?
    I like that phrasing: "if you're that reliant on outcome." What else are we supposed to be reliant on? We were told that if we voted to leave the EU then we would leave the EU. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to expect that mandate to be carried out.

    I would oppose another referendum unless there was some sea change in circumstances, which I don't think there has been. I think the idea that you can just keep asking people the same question until you get the "right" answer is simply indecent. What about if the second referendum is also close? Should we have a third?
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I like that phrasing: "if you're that reliant on outcome." What else are we supposed to be reliant on? We were told that if we voted to leave the EU then we would leave the EU. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to expect that mandate to be carried out.

    I would oppose another referendum unless there was some sea change in circumstances, which I don't think there has been. I think the idea that you can just keep asking people the same question until you get the "right" answer is simply indecent. What about if the second referendum is also close? Should we have a third?
    Do you honestly hand on heart think that the majority of people who voted to leave did so picturing vast queues to get through customs to Europe, food shortages, big hikes on the price of almost everything, a slumping jobs and housing market and (eventually) sharp tax hikes? Is that really what people voted for? Or did they simply not know what they were voting for, because the Leave campaign didn't warn them?

    When did we hear about the customs union in the campaign?

    When was it stated that it would be very likely when we crash out of the EU with no agreement (which is what is going to happen with the current government approach), it is completely plausible that it will be impossible to fly to Europe? That trade will effectively halt? That Kent will be at a permanent standstill of blocked lorries? That holidays in Spain will be a distant memory?
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I like that phrasing: "if you're that reliant on outcome." What else are we supposed to be reliant on? We were told that if we voted to leave the EU then we would leave the EU. I don't think it's completely unreasonable to expect that mandate to be carried out.

    I would oppose another referendum unless there was some sea change in circumstances, which I don't think there has been. I think the idea that you can just keep asking people the same question until you get the "right" answer is simply indecent. What about if the second referendum is also close? Should we have a third?
    You're correct in saying that we did vote to leave, the the result has been cemented, but we didn't vote on the terms of the deal, did we?

    It's good and well leaving, if that's the will of the public, but do we get no say in what that means? I only said 'second referendum' - I didn't propose what it would be on, although, I could have been clearer.

    ______

    Just as a side note, what's wrong with an outright second referendum. Circumstances HAVE changed drastically since the first. Moreover, false promises and half truths influenced voting hugely. The public have gotten a dose of realism with the events since the first, so it isn't like I'm advocating a second referendum because I'm unhappy with he result, I'm advocating some sort of second referendum to reflect the change in views from the first - to fully make sure that such a massive political move does in fact have public backing.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Do you honestly hand on heart think that the majority of people who voted to leave did so picturing vast queues to get through customs to Europe, food shortages, big hikes on the price of almost everything, a slumping jobs and housing market and (eventually) sharp tax hikes? Is that really what people voted for? Or did they simply not know what they were voting for, because the Leave campaign didn't warn them?
    Well, no. But then I also don't think any of that is going to happen, so it's rather a moot point.

    When did we hear about the customs union in the campaign?

    When was it stated that it would be very likely when we crash out of the EU with no agreement (which is what is going to happen with the current government approach), it is completely plausible that it will be impossible to fly to Europe? That trade will effectively halt? That Kent will be at a permanent standstill of blocked lorries? That holidays in Spain will be a distant memory?
    We may not have heard too much specifically about the customs union (although I definitely remember Cameron saying a vote to leave the EU would be a vote to leave the customs union) but when Vote Leave articulated the sort of things they wanted to do after Brexit (sign trade deals, reduce tariffs, leave ECJ jurisdiction, etc.) it was always obvious this was incompatible with the customs union. The same can be said about Labour's general election manifesto, by the way.

    And as for your increasingly bonkers apocalyptic prophesies, none of that is plausible. Except possibly queues at Dover, but if so that won't be simply because we left but because the government made a hash of the implementation.

    I mean, "trade will effectively halt"? Really? You know that isn't true.
 
 
 

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