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Civil disobedience may be the only way to save the country from the hard right watch

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    (Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
    You're correct in saying that we did vote to leave, the the result has been cemented, but we didn't vote on the terms of the deal, did we?

    It's good and well leaving, if that's the will of the public, but do we get no say in what that means? I only said 'second referendum' - I didn't propose what it would be on, although, I could have been clearer.
    Of course we didn't, because we don't have a say over the EU's negotiating position. Indeed, the fact that the leavers couldn't tell us exactly what our relationship with the EU would look like after Brexit was a point the remain campaign hammered relentlessly. The only reasonable message to draw from the referendum is that the government has a mandate to leave the EU on whatever terms it can negotiate.

    That said, if there were really a great clamour for a second referendum it would be difficult to deny it, but there isn't. Polls have shown a consistently low level of support for a second referendum. Even remain voters don't want to reopen those wounds. We've also had a general election where both major parties ruled one out.
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    Of course we didn't, because we don't have a say over the EU's negotiating position. Indeed, the fact that the leavers couldn't tell us exactly what our relationship with the EU would look like after Brexit was a point the remain campaign hammered relentlessly. The only reasonable message to draw from the referendum is that the government has a mandate to leave the EU on whatever terms it can negotiate.

    That said, if there were really a great clamour for a second referendum it would be difficult to deny it, but there isn't. Polls have shown a consistently low level of support for a second referendum. Even remain voters don't want to reopen those wounds. We've also had a general election where both major parties ruled one out.

    Which is...fair enough I suppose.

    I think my real gripe is with referendums as a national concept. They should only be practised locally or regionally in my opinion. Big decisions should be left to the representative we elect, the experts, essentially. If we're entrusting them to actually negotiate the deal, we should be able to trust them to decide whether we should leave or not. Massive wastes of time, money and just a pain in the arse - as well as being rather fruitless in the end.

    /rant.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Note that I never once said "to stay in the EU" - I am talking about what is necessary to avoid us plunging into the mother of all recessions. How bizarre that a Tory government is ignoring the interests of business, the economy and our prosperity to serve the twisted agendas of radical conspiracy theorists and clueless anti-economists.
    Yes, 52% of the people who turned out to vote are radical conspiracy theorists and clueless anti-economists? Can you hear yourself right now?

    We voted to leave. We're going to leave. Please get over it. Posts like these pop up all the time and it's getting boring.

    Plus the Tories aren't hard right. They're barely even centre right.
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    (Original post by howitoughttobe)
    Yes, 52% of the people who turned out to vote are radical conspiracy theorists and clueless anti-economists? Can you hear yourself right now?

    We voted to leave. We're going to leave. Please get over it. Posts like these pop up all the time and it's getting boring.

    Plus the Tories aren't hard right. They're barely even centre right.
    Indeed. Jacob Rees-Mogg is probably the only authentic, conservative-minded member of the Conservative Party.
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    All this is predicated on the notion that Remainers predictions are correct and that Leavers predictions are incorrect. Also that the EU is an objective "Good".

    As soon as Art 50 was triggered, the rest of the EU went ahead with things that we were assured would never ever happen - like a huge steroid injection into Common European Defence. This isn't just the Euro Army (which Remainers said was a fantasy and would never happen), but now common research and development and congruence of the arms industries. This is so far beyond anything envisaged before and people like Juncker are standing there with a straight face telling people that they have no designs on a Federal Europe - when that has been their open, stated aim for decades.

    The next thing is the removal of national MEPs. This will mean that MEPs are no longer "attached" to any particular member state. You just vote for randoms from Hungary or Luxembourg - because thats a thing.

    What else is happening? Single European President instead of the two or three they have now. Concentrating power.

    The EU is moving so far in the direction of a Federal body and removing political power from member states and concentrating it in the hands of the European Parliament and President.

    This body, which nearly half the people in this country seem willing to lay down their lives for - has in the space of a few decades from an economic union that used to give out farm subsidies and allocate fishing quotas - into a supranational government with supreme legal jurisdiction, control over militaries, defence industries, Central Banking, control over national fiscal and monetary policy, borders, immigration and trade - at the same time as reducing democracy to a bare minimum as distancing political decision making as far from the citizens of member states as possible.

    None of this is in dispute - so why would anyone think that the EU is a good idea?
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    Justifying anti democratic actions to fight a supposed faliure of democracy (you crying you didn't get what you want) typical radical left, insanity wrapped in hypocrisy, as long as you think something is 'righteous' or 'correct' you can justify genocide, murder and becoming the beast you are pretending to fight against, If you blockade the Parliament I wish you all a happy time in jail, and if this 'civil disobedience' (about as clever as me calling genocide "bye bye race time") ends up in a civil war you already know who will lose, you because you cannot even agree within your billions of idiotic ideologies within the left, just look at the Spanish civil war, frontlines would open over arguments between one radical left group and another over simple arguments, the good thing is that the majority of the right can band together for a greater good.
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    (Original post by Less(e/o)n)
    Indeed. Jacob Rees-Mogg is probably the only authentic, conservative-minded member of the Conservative Party.
    I don't even see why they call themselves conservatives, we have no true moralistic and just conservative party just a shadow of a former glory.
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    You're right obviously, but I've given up. If people are so hell-bent on self-destruction then okay.
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    and if this 'civil disobedience' ends up in a civil war you already know who will lose,
    the last time we had a civil war the people were relatively healthy & used to hard physical exertion. nowadays it would all have to be done online as the Brexiters would be unable to wobble as far as the battlefield let alone wield a claymore.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    the last time we had a civil war the people were relatively healthy & used to hard physical exertion. nowadays it would all have to be done online as the Brexiters would be unable to wobble as far as the battlefield let alone wield a claymore.
    The left would crumble after their soy supply lines fail
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    The left would crumble after their soy supply lines fail
    but they would be protected by...

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_YNPdTJJC_D...npaper_hat.jpg

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YNPdTJJC_D.../Photo+235.jpg
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    All this is predicated on the notion that Remainers predictions are correct and that Leavers predictions are incorrect. Also that the EU is an objective "Good".

    As soon as Art 50 was triggered, the rest of the EU went ahead with things that we were assured would never ever happen - like a huge steroid injection into Common European Defence. This isn't just the Euro Army (which Remainers said was a fantasy and would never happen), but now common research and development and congruence of the arms industries. This is so far beyond anything envisaged before and people like Juncker are standing there with a straight face telling people that they have no designs on a Federal Europe - when that has been their open, stated aim for decades.

    The next thing is the removal of national MEPs. This will mean that MEPs are no longer "attached" to any particular member state. You just vote for randoms from Hungary or Luxembourg - because thats a thing.

    What else is happening? Single European President instead of the two or three they have now. Concentrating power.

    The EU is moving so far in the direction of a Federal body and removing political power from member states and concentrating it in the hands of the European Parliament and President.

    This body, which nearly half the people in this country seem willing to lay down their lives for - has in the space of a few decades from an economic union that used to give out farm subsidies and allocate fishing quotas - into a supranational government with supreme legal jurisdiction, control over militaries, defence industries, Central Banking, control over national fiscal and monetary policy, borders, immigration and trade - at the same time as reducing democracy to a bare minimum as distancing political decision making as far from the citizens of member states as possible.

    None of this is in dispute - so why would anyone think that the EU is a good idea?
    The European Defence Area is all about providing contracts to EU-based defence contractors, wrapped up as support for higher spending as demanded by Trump. The UK repeatedly blocked this and insisted on it being run by NATO, which is quite a strange position to take - this is the same NATO that currently includes a fascist state trying to destroy our best allies in the war against IS. (I speak of Turkey.) Has it occurred to you that maybe the EU are right about this and the UK is wrong?
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    (Original post by zhog)
    You mean sabotaging, not salvaging. Or reversing.
    If there is one thing Brexit is sabataging it is the Tory Party XD
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Labour are still not really willing to do what is needed.
    Like what? Getting pummled in an election for bettraying Brexit? The last thing Labour should be doing is listening to the centrist media class for poltical strategy advice :laugh: These people ( well most fo them , not all) think things were more or less fine pre Brexit and would be happy to revert to that. They would prefer a Tory government and no Brexit than Brexit and a Labour government. They are enemies of the Labour left. There is no way Labour should listen to these plonkers. Only when staying to remain in the EU looks like a strong political strategy to win should Labour even go there. At the moment Labour's strategy is to be bit more remain than whataver the Tories are and to let the Tories own the mess they have made.

    They should stop blaming Labour and blame the Tories and if they are worried about the implications of brexit then get behind the party that is less Kamikazi about it.

    These slugs should be aiming their wrath at Tory "rebels" like Soooooobz for not actually rebelling if they want Brexit stopped.
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    If we are gonna have mass civil dissabediance it needs to be about more than just remaining in the EU, which is a bit of a **** conservative government structure lets be honest. I'm not risking my life on the barricades just to get back in the EU club -____-
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)

    They are also prepared to destroy the Good Friday Agreement and impose a hard border (the inevitable result of their policy) in Northern Ireland and most likely to crash the economy of Ireland as well.

    We probably will need to blockade Parliament or similar, as there is no willingness to listen, to take on Remainer views or to even show a willingness to properly negotiate..
    A soft/medium border at NI is no big deal- the GFA can be adjusted if necessary

    Remainers lost the vote so no reason to 'listen' to their elitist rantings any more
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    it is completely plausible that it will be impossible to fly to Europe? That trade will effectively halt? That Kent will be at a permanent standstill of blocked lorries? That holidays in Spain will be a distant memory?
    grow up, snowflake!
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    (Original post by So-Sarah)
    A soft/medium border at NI is no big deal- the GFA can be adjusted if necessary

    Remainers lost the vote so no reason to 'listen' to their elitist rantings any more

    The simplest solution if the EU were to force Ireland to have a 'harder' border (otherwise nothing will change as the UK nor Ireland would create one) is for Ireland to leave the EU.


    Ireland is a eurosceptic country. In NI the DUP and Sinn Fein both wanted to leave the EU, until Sinn Fein found accepting millions of euros from it wasn't so bad for them. In EIRE they twice rejected EU treaties in referendum.
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    Coz Labour never lie...
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    All this is predicated on the notion that Remainers predictions are correct and that Leavers predictions are incorrect. Also that the EU is an objective "Good".

    As soon as Art 50 was triggered, the rest of the EU went ahead with things that we were assured would never ever happen - like a huge steroid injection into Common European Defence. This isn't just the Euro Army (which Remainers said was a fantasy and would never happen), but now common research and development and congruence of the arms industries. This is so far beyond anything envisaged before and people like Juncker are standing there with a straight face telling people that they have no designs on a Federal Europe - when that has been their open, stated aim for decades.

    The next thing is the removal of national MEPs. This will mean that MEPs are no longer "attached" to any particular member state. You just vote for randoms from Hungary or Luxembourg - because thats a thing.

    What else is happening? Single European President instead of the two or three they have now. Concentrating power.

    The EU is moving so far in the direction of a Federal body and removing political power from member states and concentrating it in the hands of the European Parliament and President.

    This body, which nearly half the people in this country seem willing to lay down their lives for - has in the space of a few decades from an economic union that used to give out farm subsidies and allocate fishing quotas - into a supranational government with supreme legal jurisdiction, control over militaries, defence industries, Central Banking, control over national fiscal and monetary policy, borders, immigration and trade - at the same time as reducing democracy to a bare minimum as distancing political decision making as far from the citizens of member states as possible.

    None of this is in dispute - so why would anyone think that the EU is a good idea?
    If that were true I'm sure the BBC would have mentioned it...
 
 
 
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