Girls in STEM watch

InstituteAndFacultyofActuaries · 06-03-2018 14:57

(Original post by HateOCR)
Im not a female so i don’t know how to make STEM subjects particularly appealing to females specifically but i would assume that job prospects, salaries, gender ratios in STEM subjects (and examples of females who took lead/advanced society) would definitely help.
Advertisements showing male and female engineers working together could also help in eliminating this idea that STEM is better suited or made for males.

There's also all the famous women in STEM which some may not know about.

HateOCR · 06-03-2018 14:58

(Original post by InstituteAndFacultyofActuaries)
There's also all the famous women in STEM which some may not know about.

Yes good point

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hannxm · 06-03-2018 15:24

(Original post by PollyParrot23)
Are you from the 1950s? 'Women like to uphold that traditional view'? I have never met a woman like that in my life! Women do what they like, whether it's beauty, science, sport or being a housewife. It's a shame that there are women out there who feel like they don't have opportunity and will get pushed down- but we make our own opportunity in life. If someone's ever said to me that something isn't lady like or whatever, or that I'm not smart enough, do you know what I did? I didn't simper and meekly say 'oh yes I'm just a silly girl who is easily kept down by your criticisms', I proved them wrong, stood my ground and did what every single woman is capable of doing.

Why would something being intimidating stop a woman from doing something? You know whats intimidating- getting pregnant and raising a child. That's a lot more intimidating than a degree.

Also child care and nursing are not necessarily appealing to women. As a woman I can't think of jobs I'd rather do less!

I'm currently a student in a STEM subject and I hate it. I don't think aiming high means landing a job in STEM and I don't think women should be pressured to go into science just for equal numbers, nor do a think someone should be made to feel less of themselves for not having an interest in science.

Maybe I'm lucky in that I don't understand this idea that women feel that they 'can't' do things or 'shouldn't' do certain jobs.

Some women do want to live the life of a mother and house wife? They still exist believe it or not. Are you going to tell them that they shouldn't because they're living like a 1950s woman and you don't agree with it? That's some women's goal in life. I don't think women who don't pursue science are not aiming high or that they should feel like a failure.

You don't need any level of intelligence or academic skill (unfortunately) to raise a child. It's natural for women to go through that process - I don't think they're at all comparable. In my experience, it's the minority of women who try to get a good career before having children. I've seen numerous women online with a bunch of kids who've expressed that do not feel intelligent enough to do a degree and even people who are currently doing a science degree have expressed their anxieties about their ability. They also don't always have an interest in it which is fine too.

I'm in large girl groups online, maybe you should join one and ask these questions? I think you will get an idea of the general belief as many of them are unemployed mothers.

PollyParrot23 · 06-03-2018 15:36

(Original post by hannxm)
Some women do want to live the life of a mother and house wife? They still exist believe it or not. Are you going to tell them that they shouldn't because they're living like a 1950s woman and you don't agree with it? That's some women's goal in life. I don't think women who don't pursue science are not aiming high or that they should feel like a failure.

You don't need any level of intelligence or academic skill (unfortunately) to raise a child. It's natural for women to go through that process - I don't think they're at all comparable. In my experience, it's the minority of women who try to get a good career before having children. I've seen numerous women online with a bunch of kids who've expressed that do not feel intelligent enough to do a degree and even people who are currently doing a science degree have expressed their anxieties about their ability. They also don't always have an interest in it which is fine too.

I'm in large girl groups online, maybe you should join one and ask these questions? I think you will get an idea of the general belief as many of them are unemployed mothers.

....you quoted me and clearly didn't read the bit where I said women should be able to do what they please INCLUDING being a mother and/or housewife? I never said there was anything wrong with wanting to be a mother, I just don't know many people of the mentality that women belong as stay at home mothers only.

Also I think the idea of doing things that are intimidating is comparable no matter what the activity- the point is that you want something even though you find it nerve wracking. Not all women find pregnancy and children the most comfortable thing despite it being so natural. I have spoken to many girls who find the idea down right terrifying. It doesn't stop them having families though. Like those women you know who have anxieties ad doubts but are still doing their degree anyway.

Out of interest, how old are you?

Angel_Chen · 06-03-2018 17:21

I think school has a big impact. I go to a girls grammar school and our most popular subjects at A level are STEM. This is because they always encourage us to do STEM subjects, but also I think being a all girls school helps us do what we want. I know in the boys grammar they are very sexist to girls going there for sixth form, especially if they do STEM subjects.

HighOnGoofballs · 06-03-2018 20:28

(Original post by InstituteAndFacultyofActuaries)
Why aren't a lot of girls going into STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics) related study/work?

Well, aside from the fact that there is a lot of girls in STEM, there are many reasons why there may not be as many as men. Keep in mind that females outnumber or equalise males in every STEM-related subject aside from CompSci, Earth Sciences, Engineering, Pure Chemistry, and Pure Maths - other than that, most STEM-related degrees are similar in sex proportion.

So why are women not choosing to go into the degrees/careers I mentioned above?

1. Different life choices. Many women want kids and recognise that a career in a tough job like a Geologist may not be practical. Many women want a more stable lifestyle, with a nice balance of work and leisure, so choose to avoid STEM, as that heavily focuses on the former.

2. Male-dominated fields e.g. Computer Sciences may be unappealing. CompSci is something like 90%+ male, this may be discouraging to some females.

3. Societal pressure. Families may want their daughter to get married, or go into a certain field. Many fields such as Engineering are seen as manly whereas stuff like receptionists is seen as feminine, so this may influence their decision.

4. Biological Difference:

a) Men, on average are stronger. Some types of engineering lead to long working days and need for some physical ability. This may not be attractive to some females.

b) I read a study a while back that got a bunch of male and female babies together. The researchers showed the babies a bunch of different objects. It was found the males were more interested in screwdrivers and mechanical 'stuff', and the females were more interested in human faces. Obviously, this doesn't bare any verifiable merit, but I think it may be a reason why, when growing up females are more empathetic and like to play with dollhouses, whereas males love to wrestle and f*ck about. This sort of inherent difference between the sexes may be reflective of career choice, with females going into things like medicine (in which there is a female: male ratio of 60:40) rather than Earth Sciences, for example. You may regard this as a small point or disregard it all together, but it's certainly interesting and something worth considering or looking more into.

There are other reasons, tradition may be one, but other comments have touched on it already.

Personally, I believe number 1 is by far the MOST important reason.

rickyrossman · 07-03-2018 02:27

(Original post by InstituteAndFacultyofActuaries)
Why aren't a lot of girls going into STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics) related study/work?

Depends which fields of STEM you're talking about. There's quite alot of women in biology, chemistry, medicine, veterinary medicine and other healthcare professions.

Its definitely a problem in computing.

rickyrossman · 07-03-2018 02:32

(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
a) Men, on average are stronger. Some types of engineering lead to long working days and need for some physical ability. This may not be attractive to some females.

True. This would explain why there aren't many women in the trades. But graduate engineering posts are mainly sedentary desk jobs involving design and very little physical work. The environment is very similar to working as a secretary in an office which has lots of women in such roles. So I wonder why so few women chose to not study engineering?

HighOnGoofballs · 07-03-2018 08:22

(Original post by rickyrossman)
True. This would explain why there aren't many women in the trades. But graduate engineering posts are mainly sedentary desk jobs involving design and very little physical work. The environment is very similar to working as a secretary in an office which has lots of women in such roles. So I wonder why so few women chose to not study engineering?

Because physcial work is not the only reason.

Engineering has always been male dominated, so this could be unappealing.

Engineering has insanely long working days - probably the biggest factor discouraging women.

Engineering (don't quote me on this) is a very competitive profession. This means if you want to move up the ladder and get promotions, you're going to have to work overtime. This is vastly unappealing to women who want children or a more balanced lifestyle, but still want a healthy career as children stop a women from getting higher up positions.

There is one other factors aswell, which is sorta of just my opinion. If you look at jobs that are social, women dominate. Receptionists, nurses etc. Engineering is a very isolate field, as is CompSci for example, with very little human interaction, so this may be unappealing.

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PQ · 07-03-2018 08:38

(Original post by InstituteAndFacultyofActuaries)
Can you think of ways to make it more appealing if they don't like it?

Pink calculators?
Cute cats on maths books?

There’s literally books of academic research into the effects of socialisation and implicit bias on the choices of women and girls. You want to increase participation - change society and the media instead of trying to paper over the cracks.

PQ · 07-03-2018 08:39

(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
Because physcial work is not the only reason.

Engineering has always been male dominated, so this could be unappealing.

Engineering has insanely long working days - probably the biggest factor discouraging women.

Engineering (don't quote me on this) is a very competitive profession. This means if you want to move up the ladder and get promotions, you're going to have to work overtime. This is vastly unappealing to women who want children or a more balanced lifestyle, but still want a healthy career as children stop a women from getting higher up positions.

There is one other factors aswell, which is sorta of just my opinion. If you look at jobs that are social, women dominate. Receptionists, nurses etc. Engineering is a very isolate field, as is CompSci for example, with very little human interaction, so this may be unappealing.

Engineering has “very little human interaction”.

InstituteAndFacultyofActuaries · 07-03-2018 09:18

I think it's fair to say there are a variety of opinions on this topic, but a lot of women still feel that STEM is very male-dominated, and we should be encouraging more girls into STEM if they wish as only 1/4 of STEM workers are female.

Another part of the issue is, a lot of students do not know about the depth of careers they can go into with subjects like Maths - is there ways we can improve this?

PQ · 07-03-2018 09:42

(Original post by InstituteAndFacultyofActuaries)
Another part of the issue is, a lot of students do not know about the depth of careers they can go into with subjects like Maths - is there ways we can improve this?

Spend some cash
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/this-is-engineering/ seems to be quite effective so far.

If you're interested in getting involved in grass roots schemes to improve STEM take up from girls then I can put you in touch with some people in need of sponsorship.

HighOnGoofballs · 07-03-2018 10:04

(Original post by PQ)
Engineering has “very little human interaction”.

Hey, I'm not an expert, but some surely do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't software engineering rather secluded?

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PQ · 07-03-2018 10:04

(Original post by InstituteAndFacultyofActuaries)
Another part of the issue is, a lot of students do not know about the depth of careers they can go into with subjects like Maths - is there ways we can improve this?

You could fix your pipeline - remove accreditation/exam exemptions from universities/departments that don't hold a bronze athena swan award (either department or university level) as a minimum https://www.ecu.ac.uk/equality-chart...-swan-members/

That would be
CASS/City
LSE

But the following would be fine
Herriot-watt
Imperial
Lancaster
QMUL
Queens Belfast
Oxford
Birmingham
Bristol
UEA
Essex (not dept)
Kent
Leeds
Leicester
Liverpool (not dept)
Manchester
Southampton
Warwick
York

With a 5 year stated aim that the requirement will move to a silver award to get those with bronzes to up their game (and another 5 years to get them all up to gold).

PQ · 07-03-2018 10:08

(Original post by HighOnGoofballs)
Hey, I'm not an expert, but some surely do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't software engineering rather secluded?

Nope
https://github.com/bounswe/bounswe20...re-Development

And saying women are put off engineering because of long working days and then listing nursing as "appealing" to women is another bit of nonsense (you'll also find that nursing is a physical job and has a lot of overtime!).

303Pharma · 07-03-2018 10:25

(Original post by Muttley79)
So why is no-one working to get men into Humanities? Why do you feel there needs to be this focus and not one on men into humanites?

This.

How many posters here have worked for a business, or organisation, were the manager of Human Resources, and the majority, if not the entirety, of the HR staff, were male? Why isn't this an issue for gender ideologues if they sincerely believed in equality (of outcome)?

Were are the voices championing more gender equality (of outcome) in dangerous *, difficult, dirty, outside work? (* 93% of civilian work related, (ie excluding military), deaths per year are male)

How many women work, or even want to work; on oil-rigs, as bin 'men', sewage maintenance / waste water treatment plants, electricity pylon repair, skyscraper window cleaners, deep sea fisher 'men' , miners, roofers, all construction really, fire'men', law enforcement (street beat police 'men', ) truck drivers, farming... i could go on.

Don't see many middle class feminist arguing for gender equality (of outcome) in *****y hard work do you? Just quotas for CEO positions, and preferential treatment for high paid, indoor, comfy, desk jobs.

And since when did equality of opportunity, become equality of outcome anyway?

PQ · 07-03-2018 10:30

(Original post by 303Pharma)
This.

How many posters here have worked for a business, or organisation, were the manager of Human resources, and the majority, if not the entirety, of the staff, were male? Why isn't this an issue for gender ideologues in they sincerely believed in equality (of outcome)?

Were are the voices championing more gender equality (of outcome) in dangerous *, difficult, dirty, outside work? (* 93% of civilian work related, (ie excluding military), deaths per year are male)

How many women work, or even want to work; on oil-rigs, as bin 'men', sewage maintenance / waste water treatment plants, electricity pylon repair, skyscraper window cleaners, deep sea fisher 'men', miners, roofers, all construction really, fire'men', law enforcement (street beat police 'men', truck drivers, farming... i could go on.

Don't see many middle class feminist arguing for gender equality (of outcome) in *****y hard work do you? Just quotas for CEO positions, and preferential treatment for high paid, indoor, comfy, desk jobs.

And since when did equality of opportunity, become equality of outcome anyway?

Why didn't you raise this on International Men's Day? https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=5056862

IGCSEKID2017 · 07-03-2018 10:37

(Original post by InstituteAndFacultyofActuaries)
I think it's fair to say there are a variety of opinions on this topic, but a lot of women still feel that STEM is very male-dominated, and we should be encouraging more girls into STEM if they wish as only 1/4 of STEM workers are female.

Another part of the issue is, a lot of students do not know about the depth of careers they can go into with subjects like Maths - is there ways we can improve this?

As a female student who is very much interested in Maths I feel that there are not enough people to encourage girls to go further with Maths and STEM related subjects. If there were more resources/people to inspire them to carry on with STEM subjects I'm sure a lot more girls would pursue them. Maybe they would like to continue with STEM subjects but don't have the help needed.

Muttley79 · 07-03-2018 10:38

(Original post by InstituteAndFacultyofActuaries)
I think it's fair to say there are a variety of opinions on this topic, but a lot of women still feel that STEM is very male-dominated, and we should be encouraging more girls into STEM if they wish as only 1/4 of STEM workers are female.

Another part of the issue is, a lot of students do not know about the depth of careers they can go into with subjects like Maths - is there ways we can improve this?

I'm female and studied Mathematics. I actually find the whole WISE focus rather insullting tbh. It assumes women are not able to hold their own without 'help' and are incapable of choosing a career THEY want to do.

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