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Do Labour Supporters welcome the convergence of Labour and the Communists? watch

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    (Original post by Davij038)
    So why has John McDonnell repeatedly referred to himself as a Marxist?
    Becuase he is one?

    That still doesn't make the 2017 election manifesto communist however. The current job of the anti-capitalist left, that McDonnell is a part of, seems to be to save capitalism from the idiot pro capitalists that seem incapable fo doing it themselves. They just can't seem to wean themselves off of auterity economics. At the moment there is nothing big going on that really threatens capitalism. The Labour leadership know that first they have to win and for it not be a disastor, they need to be in more than one term and they need to find ways of actually implementing policies that will face sever reaction by capital and it's allies in the state apparatus. Just like it did in the 70s when Labour were elected to power on a radical manifesto of distrbuting power away from capital.

    In the long run however those like McDonnel genuinlly do want to go a lot further. But they are a minority in the PLP, nevermind the massive resistance they will face from other sources of power. This is also why there needs to be deslections if the PLP are not willing to play along.

    I do however look forward to the day when Labour puts forward a communist manifesto and wins XD
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Becuase he is one?

    That still doesn't make the 2017 election manifesto communist however. The current job of the anti-capitalist left, that McDonnell is a part of, seems to be to save capitalism from the idiot pro capitalists that seem incapable fo doing it themselves. They just can't seem to wean themselves off of auterity economics. At the moment there is nothing big going on that really threatens capitalism. The Labour leadership know that first they have to win and for it not be a disastor, they need to be in more than one term and they need to find ways of actually implementing policies that will face sever reaction by capital and it's allies in the state apparatus. Just like it did in the 70s when Labour were elected to power on a radical manifesto of distrbuting power away from capital.

    In the long run however those like McDonnel genuinlly do want to go a lot further. But they are a minority in the PLP, nevermind the massive resistance they will face from other sources of power. This is also why there needs to be deslections if the PLP are not willing to play along.

    I do however look forward to the day when Labour puts forward a communist manifesto and wins XD
    A) if it’s a manifesto written by Marxists with the ultimate end goal of creating a Marxist society using Marxist lite policies then it may as well be Marxist.

    B) this ‘saving capitalism’ stuff is nonsense. It’s like saving democracy by becoming a dictatorship
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    (Original post by DeBruyne18)
    Corbyn hasn't. Indeed during the leadership contest he said he hadn't read much of Marx at all
    Nicely side-stepping the question in the process. But as above- his chancellor and his inner circle are, which shows he is at least sympathetic. If Trump appointed members of the KKK into his cabinet, you wouldn’t think, oh but he’s not s member so it’s fine would you?

    Plus I don't get this bizarre notion that everything Marx did or said was evil or that he didn't raise useful critiques of capitalism.
    If you’re looking at just Marx fine. But they’re not- eg support of Maoism and the USSR or Venezuela today
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    (Original post by DeBruyne18)
    Sorry but the idea that we have anti semitic Jews leading Labour or momentum is absurd. It's a bit like those on the left who accuse everyone on the right of being racist or bigoted.

    The problem is that there is a big effort among certain people to try and make out that criticism of the Israeli government is anti semitic. It isn't.
    So Jon Lansmsn/ a Jew and head of momentum is lying then?

    I don’t particularly care to be honest.
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    (Original post by Napp)
    Out of the two of those only 1 is guaranteed to tank the uk and it isn't the pro immigration one.
    How exactly do you imagine the economy would function with a closed door?
    You lot are living in the wrong century, times have changed and you can't unchange them.
    Poland , Japan, Israel and the US today

    All seem to be doing fine tbh
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Nicely side-stepping the question in the process. But as above- his chancellor and his inner circle are, which shows he is at least sympathetic. If Trump appointed members of the KKK into his cabinet, you wouldn’t think, oh but he’s not s member so it’s fine would you?



    If you’re looking at just Marx fine. But they’re not- eg support of Maoism and the USSR or Venezuela today
    I care about the policies put forward. And for all the talk and accusations, no one has been able to provide a single example of one Communist policy in Labour's manifesto or even proposed by the party. That's the problem with discourse today, there's no balance. If someone disagrees with you they get accused of being an extremist.

    No, I don't think Corbyn nor his inner team are 'Marxists'.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    So Jon Lansmsn/ a Jew and head of momentum is lying then?

    I don’t particularly care to be honest.
    I think he's caved into pressure from the media.
    There are people who will accuse anyone who criticises the Israeli government of being anti-semitic. The fact that the leaders of the organisation are Jewish, is a pretty strong sign that the organisation is not anti-semitic.
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    (Original post by Napp)
    I thought he was a Trot as opposed to a Marxist?
    Trotsky and trots are Marxist.

    Corbyn is basically a Bennite (Benn was more a christian socialist than a Marxist) if you want your Labour factionalism to be accurate. Corbynism is long berried corpse of Bennism from the 70s/80s rising up from the grave and taking over the party. A proper horror show if you are a slug or a melt. It's great XD

    Corbynism is essentially bringing back the battles that were going on the labour party all those decades ago, albiet facing a different kind of society with much a much weaker and atomised worker class. It;s trying to make the party more democratic and accountable to the grass routes as well as trying to use the labour party to create economic democracy throughout society. If that is Marxism, well then call me a Marxist. It's never been succesfully tried before and faces a load of barriers to implementing it. It's anti-capitalist as well as anti top down state beucracy of the keysanism and nationalisation of the post war era. Which is why it is it total *******s to describe it as unreconstructed socialism. Those saying are either ignorant or don't want you to look at what it actually is. It was an opposition movement within the left back during the 70s and 80s. It has never been in power.

    John McDonnel is doing much of the groundwork thinking on this in the leadership of the party.
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/hil...mics-of-labour

    Of course the mainstream media is piss poor at informing the population to what the opposition is thinking and still frames everything around dumb ass austerity economics.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)

    Benn (was a Christian socislist).
    Ay, what are you smoking? He was a militant atheist
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    (Original post by DeBruyne18)
    I think he's caved into pressure from the media.
    There are people who will accuse anyone who criticises the Israeli government of being anti-semitic. The fact that the leaders of the organisation are Jewish, is a pretty strong sign that the organisation is not anti-semitic.
    I actually kinda agree with that to be honest
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    (Original post by munchm_)
    I'm not at all a Corbyn fan, but he isn't a Marxist. He's just the best man on the UK political stage for them right now - he's much further left than most of the recent Labour leaders.

    Most of Labour is not allying itself with extremists. Why not look to the Conservatives for extremism instead - the ones in a minority government with the DUP?

    I hate all the parties I've just listed off here, but come on - this is such a gross exaggeration of the truth.
    Classic.

    The thread is clearly about Labour and Communism and yet reply number 1 is an attack on the Conservative party.

    Why can't you stay on topic? Something to hide?
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    (Original post by Pigster)
    Classic.

    The thread is clearly about Labour and Communism and yet reply number 1 is an attack on the Conservative party.

    Why can't you stay on topic? Something to hide?
    No. I am a capitalist. I am also socially liberal. That is why I have a great distaste for the DUP.
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    (Original post by munchm_)
    No. I am a capitalist. I am also socially liberal. That is why I have a great distaste for the DUP.
    So... start a separate thread about the DUP.

    Don't subvert a thread that clearly isn't about the DUP.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Ay, what are you smoking? He was a militant atheist
    I've read he got his socialism from Jesus. Maybe he later became an atheist but still admired the Jesus fables. I dunno. He defintitly wasn't a Capital thumping Marxist though. He was a middle of the road Labour MP who actually tried to implement a Labour party manifesto, found a deep cynical reaction against that from capital, the civil service, the security serivces and the Labour PLP that made him into a full on radical socialist. He was bascially a democrat that found socialism was only way doing democracy poroperly during the 70s. It wasn't until this point that he actually read Capital I think, and I'm sure I read hims saying he doesn't enjoy all the reading XD. This is hardly Lennin going on massive theoretical take downs of his opponents.

    He fits into the UK hisotry of socialism that is less ingrained with Marx compared to say Germany and other mainland european social democracy.
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    [QUOTE=DeBruyne18] care about the policies put forward. And for all the talk and accusations, no one has been able to provide a single example of one Communist policy in Labour's manifesto or even proposed by the party. That's the problem with discourse today, there's no balance. If someone disagrees with you they get accused of being an extremist.[quote]

    There’s probably quite a few there that are communist policies - eg renationalising the railways. Not that that in itself is communist- but is part of their broader plan.

    I think the difference here is end goals. To a socialist nations long the railways is an end in itself.

    Just as to a Typical trump supporter his wall is an end in itself. To his more fascist supporters it’s just the beginning


    No, I don't think Corbyn nor his inner team are 'Marxists'.
    You’re either very naive or disingenuous.

    John McDonnell is s self declared Marxist and is chancellor

    Andrew Murray who was appointed by Corbyn as a political adviser was a long standing member of the communist party until last year.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    A) if it’s a manifesto written by Marxists with the ultimate end goal of creating a Marxist society using Marxist lite policies then it may as well be Marxist.

    B) this ‘saving capitalism’ stuff is nonsense. It’s like saving democracy by becoming a dictatorship
    A) I don't care what you call it other than how that effects the propoganda. If it becomes popular to call things Marxist then they can stick the M worrd all over it. That manifesto was not going to kill capitalism though. It's bascially just semantics at this point.

    B) Alright. Call it making capitalism less **** and more humane. Capitalism survived in the 1930s in lots of countries by turning into the fascist version. Liberal capitalists do not want this (who are the current esablishment leaders), it's these morons who need saving. They are doing thier best to foster the rise of a new far right and are harming thier pet EU project. The role of the left that wants to actually win power seems to be partly about getting back to stuff conservatives used to support.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    There’s probably quite a few there that are communist policies - eg renationalising the railways. Not that that in itself is communist- but is part of their broader plan.
    Even a majority of Tory voters support re nationalisation of the railways! Peter Hitchens is a big advocate. Mild social democratic ideas are not Communist.
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    (Original post by Pigster)
    So... start a separate thread about the DUP.

    Don't subvert a thread that clearly isn't about the DUP.
    How is it subversion? I commented on the Marxists and Communists that are tagging along with the new Corbyn leadership, and how Labour has not endorsed these people. Then I decided to point out that the party in government had aligned itself more closely, and given vast amounts of money too, a party with some extreme views and paramilitary history. Originally, it was not my main point, but my point on the DUP was the only point that was countered.
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    (Original post by DeBruyne18)
    Even a majority of Tory voters support re nationalisation of the railways! Peter Hitchens is a big advocate. Mild social democratic ideas are not Communist.
    Yeah I know- I also support renationalising some industries. I think you missed my argument about the end result of things.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    A) I don't care what you call it other than how that effects the propoganda. If it becomes popular to call things Marxist then they can stick the M worrd all over it. That manifesto was not going to kill capitalism though. It's bascially just semantics at this point.
    Kinda, I don’t want to get too autistic on the details but I do think it’s important you have some clear definitions. But to be fair all parties are pretty inaccurate - eg the conservatives party are really the Rubbish neoliberal party- and labours even more confusing- I suppose progressive blairites lead by a socialist party doesn’t have a ring to it


    B) Alright. Call it making capitalism less **** and more humane. Capitalism survived in the 1930s in lots of countries by turning into the fascist version. Liberal capitalists do not want this (who are the current esablishment leaders), it's these morons who need saving. They are doing thier best to foster the rise of a new far right and are harming thier pet EU project.
    👍🏻

    The role of the left that wants to actually win power seems to be partly about getting back to stuff conservatives used to support.
    Ay? Explain.
 
 
 

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