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Why do people do arts subjects when FAME and STEM subjects get paid much more? watch

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    Oh man, the premise of this is super-depressing (speaking as someone with both arts and STEM degrees).

    One possibility, hopefully, is that not everybody treats university like an apprenticeship and understand that by increasing their knowledge base they in-turn increase their field of vision and experience the world around them more fully. They understand that having a true passion is rare and the opportunity to spend years of your life immersed in that passion is something that will enrich your character in ways you cant predict.

    In reality they probably just haven't gotten cynical enough yet but, y'know, I like my version better...
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    (Original post by PQ)
    The employment record of comp sci graduates is so bad that the government ordered two reviews into it.
    I have to wonder why. Is it because the content is mainly applicable to theoretical CS research, as opposed to what is in demand in industry? I.e. does it do a poor job of equipping one to be a software dev, or whatever?
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    (Original post by TCA2b)
    I took a look at LSE's courses since it should be fairly representative. Of the three subjects, only Economics requires an A level in maths (as is typical at most universities) and only it has integrated mathematics into its main principles courses, plus courses in quantitative economics/econometrics, i.e. half the first year modules. Sociology has an "exploring numbers" type course and I didn't notice one for Politics. I don't see how they're comparable. There are even many prominent economists who think there is far too much maths in it without it making any useful contribution to the field's advancement but is instead regressing (no pun intended) it. Sure, a lot of social sciences have some element of statistics, because you need to understand it to grasp things such as surveys, which they use to conduct research, but not much more than this.

    I don't dispute that Economics is a social science, but the amount of maths in it is higher than some traditional STEM degrees, and that correlates to why its graduates can command such high salaries. This is because, despite it perhaps having a dubious relationship to the field's theoretical advancement, skills such as short-term demand forecasting, spreadsheet modelling etc. are highly useful to businesses and well remunerated. Hence why these skills are taught on Business Studies and Management courses as well, but even they don't compare to the level of mathematics on an econ course.




    They may have finance degrees, though. Have you taken a look at the requirements for entry level graduate jobs in finance? More reputable unis won't let you do an MSc in Finance or Accountancy without some background in the field and certainly in the former's case, not without a strong quantitative background. That many in these sectors do not have these specific degrees is more a reflection of the fact that they were far less common decades ago than they are now. So it is unsurprising that most people in these industries probably don't have these degrees. Looking at their recent graduate workforce would be more instructive.
    (Original post by TCA2b)
    I took a look at LSE's courses since it should be fairly representative. Of the three subjects, only Economics requires an A level in maths (as is typical at most universities) and only it has integrated mathematics into its main principles courses, plus courses in quantitative economics/econometrics, i.e. half the first year modules. Sociology has an "exploring numbers" type course and I didn't notice one for Politics. I don't see how they're comparable. There are even many prominent economists who think there is far too much maths in it without it making any useful contribution to the field's advancement but is instead regressing (no pun intended) it. Sure, a lot of social sciences have some element of statistics, because you need to understand it to grasp things such as surveys, which they use to conduct research, but not much more than this.

    I don't dispute that Economics is a social science, but the amount of maths in it is higher than some traditional STEM degrees, and that correlates to why its graduates can command such high salaries. This is because, despite it perhaps having a dubious relationship to the field's theoretical advancement, skills such as short-term demand forecasting, spreadsheet modelling etc. are highly useful to businesses and well remunerated. Hence why these skills are taught on Business Studies and Management courses as well, but even they don't compare to the level of mathematics on an econ course.




    They may have finance degrees, though. Have you taken a look at the requirements for entry level graduate jobs in finance? More reputable unis won't let you do an MSc in Finance or Accountancy without some background in the field and certainly in the former's case, not without a strong quantitative background. That many in these sectors do not have these specific degrees is more a reflection of the fact that they were far less common decades ago than they are now. So it is unsurprising that most people in these industries probably don't have these degrees. Looking at their recent graduate workforce would be more instructive.
    (Original post by TCA2b)
    I took a look at LSE's courses since it should be fairly representative. Of the three subjects, only Economics requires an A level in maths (as is typical at most universities) and only it has integrated mathematics into its main principles courses, plus courses in quantitative economics/econometrics, i.e. half the first year modules. Sociology has an "exploring numbers" type course and I didn't notice one for Politics. I don't see how they're comparable. There are even many prominent economists who think there is far too much maths in it without it making any useful contribution to the field's advancement but is instead regressing (no pun intended) it. Sure, a lot of social sciences have some element of statistics, because you need to understand it to grasp things such as surveys, which they use to conduct research, but not much more than this.

    I don't dispute that Economics is a social science, but the amount of maths in it is higher than some traditional STEM degrees, and that correlates to why its graduates can command such high salaries. This is because, despite it perhaps having a dubious relationship to the field's theoretical advancement, skills such as short-term demand forecasting, spreadsheet modelling etc. are highly useful to businesses and well remunerated. Hence why these skills are taught on Business Studies and Management courses as well, but even they don't compare to the level of mathematics on an econ course.




    They may have finance degrees, though. Have you taken a look at the requirements for entry level graduate jobs in finance? More reputable unis won't let you do an MSc in Finance or Accountancy without some background in the field and certainly in the former's case, not without a strong quantitative background. That many in these sectors do not have these specific degrees is more a reflection of the fact that they were far less common decades ago than they are now. So it is unsurprising that most people in these industries probably don't have these degrees. Looking at their recent graduate workforce would be more instructive.
    LSE's philosophy degree has a significant maths component in, as I said previously Sociology/Politics at a post grad-level are highly quantative; I understand your point but were in an agreement that economics is a Soc Sci, thus the op was dishonest.

    Whats your definition of finance? I'm talking IB where you only need a bachelors in any discipline from a target uni. Oxford and Cambridgr don't ask for prior quantitive background for their finance masters.

    https://www.sbs.ox.ac.uk/programmes/degrees/mfe/outline

    "Once accepted on the programme we will provide you with pre-course reading so that, if you lack a background in finance or economics, you can become familiar with key concepts and techniques that will be introduced early on in the programme."

    https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/programmes.../how-to-apply/

    A strong academic background; at least a high UK 2:1 or equivalent (GPA of 3.6 or higher), although a First Class Degree is strongly preferred; any degree subject is potentially eligible. We are actively looking for those without a finance background at degree level.

    LSE also asks for "any discipline". And across the board MBA's ask for no business background. For finance I'd rather do what I'm doing which is a traditional humanities (Philosophy) that I personally enjoy (and thus will get good grades in) at a top IB target uni, and if for whatever reason I need an MBA or a masters in finance later on down the line, do one. Typically you'll see people with traditional humanities from target unis, as well as econ majors. in these fields.
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    They may do so at a PG level but then there's also a shift in economics at that point. I definitely agree that Economics is a social science and therefore should differ in its approach to Physics, beyond some facility with Statistics to conduct historical research, a point many economists seem oblivious to, but it's starting to come into question. I think if the primary reason for an econ grad earning so much is their modelling skills, it's misleading to not treat Econ as a STEM subject in that light.

    Regarding Oxbridge, I am pretty sure they used to require it, but they're outliers. Cambridge's approach is interesting but it is still effectively mandating work experience in the field. Can't say why it doesn't want an undergrad finance background. It's fairly typical of most Finance MScs (Imperial, LSE etc) though to require at the least a quantitative background. I'd be tempted by Oxbridge if it weren't for the exorbitant fees of these programmes.

    I was thinking finance as a sector, as a whole, not just IB (where it's primarily quants who need a huge deal of mathematical ability.) I don't dispute that you can follow the trajectory you are, but the OP was just commenting on the earning potential of respective graduates, I think.

    Good luck with your degree. I have a similar background, in Philosophy but also did Economics during the course. It's hugely useful in teaching you how to think logically/structure arguments.
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    (Original post by TCA2b)
    They may do so at a PG level but then there's also a shift in economics at that point. I definitely agree that Economics is a social science and therefore should differ in its approach to Physics, beyond some facility with Statistics to conduct historical research, a point many economists seem oblivious to, but it's starting to come into question. I think if the primary reason for an econ grad earning so much is their modelling skills, it's misleading to not treat Econ as a STEM subject in that light.

    Regarding Oxbridge, I am pretty sure they used to require it, but they're outliers. Cambridge's approach is interesting but it is still effectively mandating work experience in the field. Can't say why it doesn't want an undergrad finance background. It's fairly typical of most Finance MScs (Imperial, LSE etc) though to require at the least a quantitative background. I'd be tempted by Oxbridge if it weren't for the exorbitant fees of these programmes.

    I was thinking finance as a sector, as a whole, not just IB (where it's primarily quants who need a huge deal of mathematical ability.) I don't dispute that you can follow the trajectory you are, but the OP was just commenting on the earning potential of respective graduates, I think.

    Good luck with your degree. I have a similar background, in Philosophy but also did Economics during the course. It's hugely useful in teaching you how to think logically/structure arguments.
    Thanks, I'm actually doing Philosophy and Politics to be precise. Though if I can't get into IB my back up is a conversion masters in Comp Sci, so the previous statistics worry me slightly in that regard .
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    (Original post by "mature"student)
    Thanks, I'm actually doing Philosophy and Politics to be precise. Though if I can't get into IB my back up is a conversion masters in Comp Sci, so the previous statistics worry me slightly in that regard .
    I believe the CS conversion courses differ to undergrad ones, which is what's being referenced. If you look at their module options, they're much more highly focused on software development. Some do have a research bent, but e.g. Birmingham or Glasgow devote 1/3 to CS, and the rest to coding (I say this much because they tend to involve a project which is basically designing software.) Imperial is similar but has a pretty huge optional module selection.

    The Oxbridge courses look good, I didn't really realise they were offered on what could be termed a conversion basis. It's just whether the cost is worth it. It may be Oxbridge, but £40k is a lot of money if you're not going in with a scholarship or savings, and IB is a highly competitive field, so again, best of luck.
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    cause there is beauty in art and creativity and fun and inspiration in STEM its just rules methods and research - are people not allowed to dream? i have a mix of music computer science electronics and drama
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    (Original post by rosegg_015)
    cause there is beauty in art and creativity and fun and inspiration in STEM its just rules methods and research - are people not allowed to dream? i have a mix of music computer science electronics and drama
    Is there not also beauty in observing the wonders of nature and is there no creativity involved in developing and creating new mathematics?
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    For me, I absolutely adore stem. I enjoy it a lot more than arts and humanities, which I find boring.
    Let's consider this scenario the other way round, imagine if the art degree payed 28k and the STEM one payed 22k.
    I would still go with the STEM one since it's something that I enjoy and am fascinated about. I would much prefer that than doing something I hate every day even if I get a bit of extra cash.
    As the saying goes, if you love your job you never gave to work a day in your life 😉
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    (Original post by JohanGRK)
    How dare you put the retards who study Business Management in the same category as the God-tier Master Race Engineering + Mathematics squad.
    Retards? Really? I'm a Business student and I beg to differ. Not exactly Economics but still.
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