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    both arguements seem to have there advantages and disadvantages so will it really make that much of a difference?

    Plus we seem to get a lot of hate from our European neighbors so i'm begining to think if there is any success to be had of it, they'll only thwart it.
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    only time will tell

    :yep:
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    The youth and "educated" seem in favour of remaining, they tell us how spineless the UK government are & would rather pander to bureaucrats they likely never voted in. They even claim the EU are more democratic than their own country. If that's the case, they should prove how Martin Selmayr got his position in the Commission. He's now deciding what the Parliament can vote on. Bad times ahead
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    (Original post by shawn_o1)
    The youth and "educated" seem in favour of remaining, they tell us how spineless the UK government are & would rather pander to bureaucrats they likely never voted in. They even claim the EU are more democratic than their own country. If that's the case, they should prove how Martin Selmayr got his position in the Commission. He's now deciding what the Parliament can vote on. Bad times ahead
    Point of information. We vote for our EU parliament representative. Our elected government sends a delegate to sit on the commission. Our government votes for and vetos EU directives. Our government has helped shape much of the EU legislation we benefit from.

    But hey ho. Once we leave, we will be free to be bullied by Europe, looked down on by America and establish trade links with Ghana. Britain first right?
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    Classic remainer denial
    All of the reports are saying none of the democratic mechanisms were in practice, and Juncker simply promoted a top aide to take charge of 33,000 commissioners. Care to explain that happening in your beloved EU "democracy"?
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    (Original post by BesottedSeaWhack)
    both arguements seem to have there advantages and disadvantages so will it really make that much of a difference?

    Plus we seem to get a lot of hate from our European neighbors so i'm begining to think if there is any success to be had of it, they'll only thwart it.
    I'm curious why people think the Europeans should be treating us well for this?
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    (Original post by shawn_o1)
    The youth and "educated" seem in favour of remaining, they tell us how spineless the UK government are & would rather pander to bureaucrats they likely never voted in. They even claim the EU are more democratic than their own country. If that's the case, they should prove how Martin Selmayr got his position in the Commission. He's now deciding what the Parliament can vote on. Bad times ahead
    The EU sucks money out of European tax payers and fritter it away through the billions upon billions lost to corruption each year through propagandizing the young into utopian globalism while blaming national identity as the cause for nearly all ills that have plagued Europe, through pointless schemes aimed at getting people on board with the EU project or into bloated contracts with their big 1% business partners.

    And yet, many younger people believe belonging in the EU is as necessary to their health and survival as breathing is. And that is no accident.

    It is corrupt, dishonest, inhumane, neo-liberal and set up for the benefits of big business supplying cheap labour and bolstering the population numbers in the EU through mass migration to increase the numbers of people they can control and generate tax revenue as well as other revenue from. Thereby bolstering GDP, which they often pretend is just 'economics', and in our interest, when in reality it might effect the average person by a few hundred quid here or there over the course of a year. It will effect big business profits way more, hence the panic and doom and gloom propaganda from the Establishment, who are in the pocket of the rich and powerful.

    It's uses the promise of a Cultural Marxist leftist utopia to sell the idea of mass immigration and the cultural changes it brings, so that people buy the idea that inviting as many immigrants in as possible and welcoming them makes you decent, tolerant, supreme human being that welcomes 'diversity', and anyone who opposes the decimation of traditional European culture it often brings, such as in Sweden and elsewhere, as a Nazi, racist, evil xenophobe. They act like it is an imperative, and that Europe is too white and nationalistic and needs to be completely racially and cultural diluted in order to create a just society, when really the driver for the change it is just the same as 19th century exploitation of the poor as an endless source of cheap labour and profit.

    Plus, there is nothing wrong with traditional European culture that necessitates its destruction through 'a multi-cultural world without border' ideology.

    It's been shown that psychopaths often rise to the top of politics and big business and are massively over represented there. You just have to look at charts of wealth distribution since the 30's to see how much of the world's wealth and resources is being asset stripped, controlled and monopolised by the 1% global elite to realise those in power rarely have the interests of the majority in mind. And yet we act like they do and should give over more and more of our democratic rights and control of our lives to them.

    How leftists support this state of affairs after banging on about the ills of neo-liberalism for so long is is beyond my ability to comprehend.

    None of the above is rhetoric, it is based on facts, and I've provided just a few of the available links below. The media is not a source of facts, people need to really do their own study.


    You can see in this enlightening report in the link how much the EU spend on 'marketing the idea of the EU', or propaganda to give it its more common name:

    https://www.brugesgroup.com/propagan...ll-integration


    You can see how much is wasted in corruption but none other than the BBC here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387


    You can see how undemocratic and how cold the technocrats who run it are and how it's all about the numbers to them, not the quality of life of people or any humanitarian concerns, from none other than Yanis Varoufakis, the former Greek finance minister who still wants Britain to remain in the EU and reform it from within, yet admits it probably won't happen.

    yanisvaroufakis.eu/2016/01/29/why-a-pan-european-democracy-movement-interviewed-by-nick-buxton/

    ''Too white, Christian and happy'', the European Committee for the Capital of Culture decides.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LvNi0hXEm4
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    (Original post by Underground906)
    The EU sucks money out of European tax payers and fritter it away through the billions upon billions lost to corruption each year, propagandizing the young into utopian globalism while blaming national identity as the cause for nearly all ills that have plagued Europe, pointless schemes aimed at getting people on board with the EU project, or into bloated contracts with their big 1% business partners.

    And yet, many younger people believe belonging in the EU is as necessary to their health and survival as breathing is. It is corrupt, dishonest, inhumane, neo-liberal and set up for the benefits of big business supplying cheap labour and bolstering the population numbers in the EU through mass migration to increase the numbers of people they can control and generate tax revenue as well as other revenue from and to bolster GDP, which they often pretend is just 'economics', and in our interest, when it reality it might effect the average person by a few hundred quid here or there over the course of a year. It will effect big business profits way more, hence the panic and doom and gloom propaganda from the Establishment, who are in the pocket of the rich and powerful.

    It's uses the promise of a Cultural Marxist leftist utopia to sell the idea of mass immigration and the cultural changes it brings, so that people buy the idea that inviting as many immigrants in as possible and welcoming them makes you decent, tolerant, supreme human being that welcomes 'diversity', and anyone who opposes the decimation of traditional European culture as a Nazi, racist, evil xenophobe. They act like it is an imperative, and that Europe is too white and nationalistic and needs to be completely racially and cultural diluted in order to create a just society, when really the driver for the change it is just the same as 19th century exploitation of the poor an endless source of cheap labour.

    It's been shown than psychopaths often rise to the top of politics and big business and massively over represented there. You just have to look at charts of wealth distribution since the 30's to see how much of the world is being asset stripped and controlled and monopolised by the 1% global elite.

    How leftists support this state of affairs after banging on about the ills of neo-liberalism for so long is is beyond my ability to comprehend.

    None of the above is rhetoric, it is based on facts, and I've provided just a few of the available links below. The media is not a source of facts, people need to really do their own study.


    You can see in this enlightening report in the link how much the EU spend on 'marketing the idea of the EU', or propaganda to give it its more common name:


    https://www.brugesgroup.com/propagan...ll-integration


    You can see how much is wasted in corruption but none other than the BBC here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387


    You can see how undemocratic and how cold the technocrats who run it are and how it's all about the numbers to them, not the quality of life of people or any humanitarian concerns, from none other than Yanis Varoufakis, the former Greek finance minister who still wants Britain to remain in the EU and reform it from within, yet admits it probably won't happen.

    yanisvaroufakis.eu/2016/01/29/why-a-pan-european-democracy-movement-interviewed-by-nick-buxton/

    ''Too white, Christian and happy'', the European Committee for the Capital of Culture decides''

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LvNi0hXEm4
    well said
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    (Original post by Napp)
    I'm curious why people think the Europeans should be treating us well for this?
    Because it is in the interest of the individual member states that they do, however it is not in the interest of the EU from a political standpoint which is what the commission is more interested in. There is a reason that national governments are getting frustrated by Barnier.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Point of information. We vote for our EU parliament representative. Our elected government sends a delegate to sit on the commission. Our government votes for and vetos EU directives. Our government has helped shape much of the EU legislation we benefit from.

    But hey ho. Once we leave, we will be free to be bullied by Europe, looked down on by America and establish trade links with Ghana. Britain first right?
    Democracy is not a minority electing representatives who club together and appoint a secondary commissioner who is the only UK person who can propose or repeal legislation.

    The EU is unaccountable to voters, they would never have supported the programme of the past 15 years. If our commissioner were directly elected you could argue it's more democratic- but we all know it would be Nigel Farage rather than an Oxford-educated career civil servant.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    Democracy is not a minority electing representatives who club together and appoint a secondary commissioner who is the only UK person who can propose or repeal legislation.

    The EU is unaccountable to voters, they would never have supported the programme of the past 15 years. If our commissioner were directly elected you could argue it's more democratic- but we all know it would be Nigel Farage rather than an Oxford-educated career civil servant.
    But by that measure, so is out own government. A minority of voters see a government formed who are generally free to do whatever they like in the 5 years of office without any accountability to the voters. In theory, they should stick to their manifesto, but time and again they do not. But governance is not about the people being allowed to vote on every issue. It is about access to and transparency in the institutions that govern us. The EU does have this to an extent but distance is probably more of a factor that prevents UK scrutiny than anything else.
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    best thing about leaving the EU is we won't have to take in all the refugees that are a-comin' our way!
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    But by that measure, so is out own government. A minority of voters see a government formed who are generally free to do whatever they like in the 5 years of office without any accountability to the voters. In theory, they should stick to their manifesto, but time and again they do not. But governance is not about the people being allowed to vote on every issue. It is about access to and transparency in the institutions that govern us. The EU does have this to an extent but distance is probably more of a factor that prevents UK scrutiny than anything else.

    There's very little point in having transparency if nobody can change the things we don't like. But the EU isn't transparent at all. Tonnes of buildings in Brussels belong to the EU, and we have no idea what the tens of thousands of bureaucrats are doing, and why their accounts haven't been signed off for the last 15 years.

    There isn't even any national debate about EU legislation, even though more of it is made than from Westminster, because there's no opposition.


    The UK parliament system is also failing, but at least we have the ability to vote out MPs who make legislation every five years. I totally agree it's ridiculous a prime minister can be elected on a manifesto, then a year later decide to do the opposite or simply ignore their commitments. The Switzerland model of direct democracy would be better, we could do even better and have votes securely online for almost no cost.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    There's very little point in having transparency if nobody can change the things we don't like.
    What a sweeping statement. Much of what happens in British politics I don't like. Can I change it? No. But I could campaign and raise awareness of it. Similarly with Europe. I could lobby my MEP and also lobby the EU parliament. It is all doable. It is just the fact that being in Brussels it is rather more remote and I suppose, in people's minds, a bit more out of reach.

    But I can't for the life of me think of any significantly retrograde things the EU have done that have made my life worse. People talk about immigration, but it generally comes down to prejudice against Muslims (which in theory we could control). We can witter on about fishing rights, but that doesn't affect us as consumers and the UK fishing industry is now tiny compared to other industries that benefit from being in Europe. And we forget that it is our own UK government that has led much of what happend in Europe up to now.

    How ironic that now we have broken free, we have commissioned a French company to print out sacred passports!
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    What a sweeping statement. Much of what happens in British politics I don't like. Can I change it? No. But I could campaign and raise awareness of it. Similarly with Europe. I could lobby my MEP and also lobby the EU parliament. It is all doable. It is just the fact that being in Brussels it is rather more remote and I suppose, in people's minds, a bit more out of reach.

    But I can't for the life of me think of any significantly retrograde things the EU have done that have made my life worse. People talk about immigration, but it generally comes down to prejudice against Muslims (which in theory we could control). We can witter on about fishing rights, but that doesn't affect us as consumers and the UK fishing industry is now tiny compared to other industries that benefit from being in Europe. And we forget that it is our own UK government that has led much of what happend in Europe up to now.

    How ironic that now we have broken free, we have commissioned a French company to print out sacred passports!

    MEPs, the only elected part of the EU legislative process, have no power to repeal legislation, or propose new legislation. You can campaign all you like, but even if 99.99% of the British population agree nothing will change.


    You don't understand the immigration argument if you think it's dislike of Muslims. Almost all EU countries are Christian countries, having a fair immigration system with the world would give Muslims a fairer chance of being accepted to immigrate here.


    When Spanish fishing vessels catch fish in our 200 miles of the North Sea, then take them back to Spain where we have to import from it costs a lot more. And it's not just commercial fishermen, but anglers and tackle shops, boat makers. If we control our own quotas instead of throwing dead fish back in the sea things could be a lot better.
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    (Original post by bob072)
    MEPs, the only elected part of the EU legislative process, have no power to repeal legislation, or propose new legislation. You can campaign all you like, but even if 99.99% of the British population agree nothing will change.
    Is this true. I am sure it is an MEP who managed to get the bill that stopped outrageous roaming charges put through the European parliament? But regardless, it is pretty much the same as the UK parliament. UK MPs can propose legislation but if the government chooses to ignore it, or it gets filibustered at the first reading, it doesn't stand a chance. But just like in the European parliament, MPs do have the final vote and that is all powerful.

    You still haven't really said how the EU is less accountable than our own government. Have you forgotten about unelected quangos, The House of Lords generally, and non-MP based government ministers and advisers, all paid for by UK tax payers, accountable to no one and free to hide behind thick closed doors.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Point of information. We vote for our EU parliament representative. Our elected government sends a delegate to sit on the commission. Our government votes for and vetos EU directives. Our government has helped shape much of the EU legislation we benefit from.

    But hey ho. Once we leave, we will be free to be bullied by Europe, looked down on by America and establish trade links with Ghana. Britain first right?
    This actually changed my view a lot
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Is this true. I am sure it is an MEP who managed to get the bill that stopped outrageous roaming charges put through the European parliament? But regardless, it is pretty much the same as the UK parliament. UK MPs can propose legislation but if the government chooses to ignore it, or it gets filibustered at the first reading, it doesn't stand a chance. But just like in the European parliament, MPs do have the final vote and that is all powerful.

    You still haven't really said how the EU is less accountable than our own government. Have you forgotten about unelected quangos, The House of Lords generally, and non-MP based government ministers and advisers, all paid for by UK tax payers, accountable to no one and free to hide behind thick closed doors.

    I'm not denying our own system is undemocratic too, I want that to change and the first step is to leave the EU. Having a political House of Lords makes no sense, as the House of Commons already approves bills on a party combined majority basis. We could replace it with a senate of experts to amend and review legislation. The civil service is also politicised and state bureaucracy too big and expensive.
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    Ironically the biggest supporters of the UK joining the Common Market where 18-25 years old.
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