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    (Original post by _Winston_)
    Yeah. Fascism is a political ideology for everyone. 5000 converts currently in Germany today in 1939.
    Islam is not a fascist ideology though. Thats being biased right? Until one has not experienced a phenomenon as such they cannot comment. Similar example I can give whereby, I have not experienced Christianity or Judaism but I will be speaking through my own viewpoint. Something that cannot be measured as such.
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    (Original post by MiszshorTea786)
    Islam is not a fascist ideology though. Thats being biased right? Until one has not experienced a phenomenon as such they cannot comment. Similar example I can give whereby, I have not experienced Christianity or Judaism but I will be speaking through my own viewpoint. Something that cannot be measured as such.
    No, I wouldn't say it is fascist. But then I didn't. I'm just saying that ideologies are not for everyone.

    And it is not about "experience". It is about ideas.
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    (Original post by _Winston_)
    No, I wouldn't say it is fascist. But then I didn't. I'm just saying that ideologies are not for everyone.
    Neither, did I state that ideologies are for everyone. Those who want to follow it are free to do so those who dont are also free to practice what they wish.

    Though, that stated, it does not help in the least when Jehovah witness are forever knocking on ones door or pamphlets being handed out about 'Jesus being the son of god' and how an individual should think over the religion.

    So can one be quite comfortable in their chosen ideologies?
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    (Original post by MiszshorTea786)
    Neither, did I state that ideologies are for everyone. Those who want to follow it are free to do so those who dont are also free to practice what they wish.

    Though, that stated, it does not help in the least when Jehovah witness are forever knocking on ones door or pamphlets being handed out about 'Jesus being the son of god' and how an individual should think over the religion.

    So can one be quite comfortable in their chosen ideologies?
    Then why did you say that Islam is for everyone?
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    (Original post by _Winston_)
    Then why did you say that Islam is for everyone?
    I said Islam is mainly catered for Muslims but the religion accepts everyone from any background. Hence the reverts.
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    There are too many of us. Human evolution has not adequately prepared us to acknowledge so many strangers in our lives, and contemporary life in all it's manifestations, enforces in us a familiarity with strangers which is unnatural. The old adage 'familiarity breeds contempt' is not just a throwaway saying; it has real meaning. So perhaps we become contemptuous of over burgeoning global societies, and of strangers that we feel oblidged to be familiar with (that are individual representations of those societies). It is therefore not surprising that dealing with strangers in physiologically stressful situations produces negative and stressful psychlogical outcomes. I can only say that one should try to circumvent our evolutionary prerogatives as best we can, and regard ourselves and those we have interactions with as equal 'products' of our own and joint evolution. If individuals can internalise this concept, maybe humanity and the individuals that constitute humanity can become less agressive or hopefully conducive, and those that predicate aggressive opposition can see that it is unnecessary and detrimental to the cause of human existance. Try also to contemplate that religious conformity and animosity has been significant only in the last 8000 years, and has only been globally significant in the last 2800 years: a mere blip in humanity's 2.5 million year existance.
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    (Original post by MiszshorTea786)
    I said Islam is mainly catered for Muslims but the religion accepts everyone from any background. Hence the reverts.
    Apologies; I've been reading Shakespeare recently so my brain is not calibrated for menial use.
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    (Original post by _Winston_)
    Apologies; I've been reading Shakespeare recently so my brain is not calibrated for menial use.
    Lol. 😂 So reading Shakespeare has made you confused or something like that?
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    Yet there are many thousands of muslims who live in the UK peacefully. pay taxes and contribute to society. Are they a fantasy?
    I grew up with muslims as good friend, close cousins, and later as niece and nephews (although they are still young and Western, and religion has yet to gets it corrupt claws in), but can we move beyond the simplistic and idiotic over-simplification of this issue and recognise the facts? For the good of society.

    ''Most Muslims are not terrorists, and are peaceful and well integrated. Plus the people committing the atrocities aren't real Muslims. So really there is no problem other than vile right-wing bigots and islamphobes trying to spread hate and division''

    Direct complicity in terrorism is not the only yardstick non-leftists use and isn't the sole basis of their concerns and objections. To be considered a real Muslim and practice the faith in accordance to its widest interpretation of what that means to be a true one in the Islamic world, you have to believe in the perfection of the Quran as God's word and his inviolable law for how to live life according to his whim. That he is all loving and merciful, but if you don't follow his every diktat, he'll burn you in hell for eternity. Real merciful. You could be any fairer or more merciful than that.

    You have to believe in some way non-believers are delusional and will be getting that exact treatment and will be going to hell on the day of judgement. You have to believe that liberal secular values permit all kinds of sins and western women are corrupt just because of their way of life. You have to believe women are men's property. That he can have many wives, as long as he treats them all equally.

    That he can beat his wife as long as he does it in the way sanctioned in the Quran or Hadiths, or whatever constitutes Sharia Law. All types of questionable, immoral stuff. Of course there are reformist Muslims looking to reform the religion for today's society but they in a minority. And if you don't believe those things, then you are supposedly questioning the perfect and incorruptible word of god and are therefore not a real Muslim.

    When the guy in charge of Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips, says the following, you know there is a problem:

    ''On specific issues – families, sexuality, gender, attitudes towards Jews and on questions of violence and terrorism – the centre of gravity of British Muslim opinion is some distance away from the centre of gravity of everyone else’s opinion.

    One in six Muslims say they would like to live more separately, a quarter would like to live under sharia law. It means that as a society we have a group of people who basically do not want to participate in the way that other people [do].

    What we also found is that there is a correspondence between this desire to live separately and sympathy for terrorism. People who want to live separately are about twice as likely to say that they have sympathy for terrorist acts. Anybody, including most people in the Muslim community, would find that extremely worrying.

    We are more nervous about Muslims because we feel people will be offended. But my view is that looking at the results of this survey, which have surprised me, that we have gone beyond the situation where we can say: ‘OK, don’t worry; they will come round in time,’ because that is not going to happen we have to make things change now.''


    You can see the abhorrent views of far too many Muslims in this country here. Fair play to that Guardian writer who reported this. Hope he didn't lose his job for ''spreading hate and xenophobia'' https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ity-sharia-law

    A view of Islam that is based on reality is essential. The current politically correct one is not accurate. Nor are simplistic cliches like ''not all Muslims'', as if any ever says ''all Muslims'' in the first place.
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    (Original post by Underground906)
    I grew up with muslims as good friend, close cousins, and later as niece and nephews (although they are still young and Western, and religion has yet to gets it corrupt claws in), but can we move beyond the simplistic and idiotic over-simplification of this issue and recognise the facts? For the good of society.

    ''Most Muslims are not terrorists, and are peaceful and well integrated. Plus the people committed the atrocities aren't real Muslims''

    Direct complicity in terrorism is not the only yardstick. To be considered a real Muslim and practice the faith in accordance to its widest interpretation of what that means to be a true one in the Islamic word, you have to believe in the perfection of the Quran as God's word and his inviolable law for how to live life according to his whim. That he is all loving and merciful, but if you don't follow his every diktat, he burn you in hell for eternity. Real merciful. You could be any fairer or more merciful than that.

    You have to believe in some way non-believers are delusional and will be getting that exact treatment and will be going to hell on the day of judgement. You have to believe that liberal secular values permit all kinds of sins and western women are corrupt just because of their way of life. You have to believe women are men's property. That he can have many wives, as long as he treats them all equally.

    That he can beat his wife as long as he does it in the way sanctioned in the Quran. All types of questionable, immoral stuff. Of course, there are reformist Muslims looking to reform the religion for today's society but they in a minority. And if you don't believe those things, then you are supposedly questioning the perfect and incorruptible word of god and are therefore not a real Muslim.

    When the guy in charge of Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips, says the following, you know there is a problem:

    ''On specific issues – families, sexuality, gender, attitudes towards Jews and on questions of violence and terrorism – the centre of gravity of British Muslim opinion is some distance away from the centre of gravity of everyone else’s opinion.

    One in six Muslims say they would like to live more separately, a quarter would like to live under sharia law. It means that as a society we have a group of people who basically do not want to participate in the way that other people [do].

    What we also found is that there is a correspondence between this desire to live separately and sympathy for terrorism. People who want to live separately are about twice as likely to say that they have sympathy for terrorist acts. Anybody, including most people in the Muslim community, would find that extremely worrying.

    We are more nervous about Muslims because we feel people will be offended. But my view is that looking at the results of this survey, which have surprised me, that we have gone beyond the situation where we can say: ‘OK, don’t worry; they will come round in time,’ because that is not going to happen we have to make things change now.''


    You can see the abhorrent views of far too many Muslims in this country here. Fair play to that Guardian writer who reported this. Hope he didn't lose his job for ''spreading hate and xenophobia'' https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ity-sharia-law

    A view of Islam that is based on reality is essential. The current politically correct one is not accurate. Nor are simplistic cliches like ''not all Muslims'', as if any ever says ''all Muslims'' in the first place.
    Tbf you might want to start your own thread about muslims and your issues with them, rather than sidetrack this one. This was about the letters as a specific event.
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    (Original post by starfab)
    Honestly what is happening to humanity?
    (Original post by Ladoni_Potnyye)
    I think that if we can stay calm in the face of stabbings and bombings, we can keep a stiff upper lip in the face of a letter being distributed by a bunch of faux-activists.
    really
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    tell me again how islamophobia isn’t real
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    (Original post by Fazzy_77)
    Actually, 'innocent people' includes anyone (muslim or not) who does not wage war. We are taught to respect all people from all faiths. People who want to demean Islam like to cherry pick verses of the Quran and take them out of context. 5:33 clearly states that those who wage war should be killed, NOT the innocent people who just want to live in peace.

    Our prophet (pbuh) predicted isis and said of them 'they are the worst of creation'. He knew they would believe in the Quran and shariah but said 'they have nothing to do with islam'. He said that those who fight against them are closer to the book of Allah than they are.
    You simply repeat what you have been told and taught. Probably since early childhood and every day at Mosque, by your Imams, parents, school and Muslim community. I guarantee you have not come to believe your religion after years of independent thought, study, evaluation of arguments from all sides, reading up on scientific knowledge, exploring other religions, and then believing that all signs pointed to a totalitarian Theistic God who commands people to follow him on the promise they'll live in paradise forever and those who don't follow him will go to hell..

    Some guy thousands of years when any guy with the gift of the gab and a messiah complex could form a cult or religion with millions of followers said such and such, and therefore Islam is beyond reproach, and anyone doing anything bad is not a real Muslim and not being true to the teachings. This is such an obnoxious delusion and lie that should be challenged at every opportunity.

    The dangerous thing about people who hold their world view simply because they've been told to is that there is a complete inability to think for themselves independently and critical and engage in real self-criticism of what you believe, what it means to hold those beliefs, and whether they are actually true or not and make sense objectively.

    The people who do that tend to leave Islam, like with any other religion, because the belief system does not stand up to real rational thought and logic. But nowhere on earth is there more violence, social and community pressure, and doctrinal pressure on people to believe uncritically and unquestionably in religion than in Islam. Punishable by death according to many Islamic sources.

    Have you ever watched Hijab Mohammed or Ali Dalwha at Hyde Park Corner? Chatting offensively absurd nonsense and trying to use logical and rational forms of formal argument to claim nonsense like ''an object like a phone has no agency to create itself. Therefore its needs a creator. That's like people, we can't create ourselves. Therefore we need a creator. Therefore that creator can only be Allah, and no one else''. All the Muslims in the comments section act like he blew 'the atheists'' or ''christians'' away and provided irrefutable proof of god, because they only see what they want to see. According to their brainwashing.


    There is so much in your religion that you cherry pick, in debates like this, and ignore or try to explain away other stuff.
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    (Original post by Fazzy_77)
    Actually, 'innocent people' includes anyone (muslim or not) who does not wage war.
    Wrong.
    Verses 5:32-33 allow killing people who are "guilty" of committing "mischief" (fasad in Arabic).
    Therefore, the "innocent" people you speak of are logically those people who do not commit fasad.
    Here is a reference to Ibn Kathir's tafsir which clearly states that "mischief" includes disbelief and disobeying gods law.
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...sk=view&id=436

    So, on to your "wage war" claim.
    You will notice that 5:33 states that those who "wage war against Allah and his messenger" should be killed. Now obviously, no one can actually "wage war" against Allah because he has no physical presence on earth, so it must be referring to the idea of Allah. This is confirmed in Ibn Kathir's tafsir where he says that "wage war" refers to various crimes "including opposition, contradiction and disbelief".
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...sk=view&id=784

    And anyway, notwithstanding that the verses refer to people who merely refuse to submit to Islam, how is execution or crucifixion a just punishment for fighting in a war? Remember that Muhammad and later rulers invaded many lands, and it would only be natural for the people there to "wage war" against the invaders. Is execution really a just punishment for defending your home and family?

    We are taught to respect all people from all faiths.
    This isn't about what you are taught. This is about what the Quran and sunnah actually say. And the Quran calls disbelievers "the worst of animals", and says that enmity and hatred against non-Muslims is "a good example to follow". There are other passages and hadith that are clearly derogatory about other religions and denigrate their followers.
    I have noticed that many western Muslims are being taught a sanitised, cherry-picked version of Islam that overlooks all the expansionist violence, religious oppression, discrimination, torture and executions.

    People who want to demean Islam like to cherry pick verses of the Quran and take them out of context. 5:33 clearly states that those who wage war should be killed, NOT the innocent people who just want to live in peace.
    Hopefully you now have a better understanding of those verses. If you still have any questions, feel free to ask.

    Our prophet (pbuh) predicted isis and said of them 'they are the worst of creation'. He knew they would believe in the Quran and shariah but said 'they have nothing to do with islam'. He said that those who fight against them are closer to the book of Allah than they are.
    Muhammad warned of people who claimed to be Muslims but the Quran would only reach their throat, and also that people who would build lofty and decorated mosques. Both these signs could apply to many Muslim states and communities around the world (especially the likes of Saudi Arabia) but not to ISIS as they make a point of destroying the ornate and decorative.

    When you look at what is actually in the Quran and sunnah, and how Muhammad dealt with enemies and opponents, and how he enforced Islamic law, he would very likely recognise the Islam of Islamic State over the Islam that is taught in the mosques and madrassas of London and Washington.
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    (Original post by WutJob..)
    tell me again how islamophobia isn’t real
    Islamophobia: A dislike of Islam, especially as a political force. (OED)

    Why wouldn't that be real? People have beed Islamophobic for 1400 years!
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    (Original post by Underground906)
    You simply repeat what you have been told and taught. Probably from a child, by your Imams, parents, school and Muslim community. I guarantee you have not come to believe your religion after years of independent thought, study, evaluation of arguments from all sides, reading up on scientific knowledge, exploring other religions.

    There is so much in your religion that you cherry pick, in debates like this, and ignore or try to explain away other stuff.
    Firstly, who are you to tell me that I haven't learnt and studied my religion independently? There was actually a time when I was losing all faith and hardly practicing the religion. After looking for guidance (not from muslims) and doing much research I realised the truth.
    Secondly, what did I cherry pick?
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    I'm celebrating the fact that Britain First's social media was CLOSED down. B-AAAAHHH-HAHAHA.

    :banana::bhangra::birthday::blow::bl::clap2:
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    (Original post by QE2)
    If Blair claimed that some element of Christian scripture justified going to war, and it did indeed contain passages that could reasonably be interpretaed as promoting such actions, then yes, Christianity would be at least partly responsible!
    No. It doesn't it makes Blair responsible. He may have read a certain verse from the bible or any other Christian text, however, what if he misinterpreted it? You can't blame a whole religion for acts of stupid people.

    Don't blame the religion, blame the person.

    It's funny how when ever somebody commits an outrageous act and links it to religion, people blame the religion. But whenever somebody does something good in the name of religion, nobody notices.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Wrong.
    Verses 5:32-33 allow killing people who are "guilty" of committing "mischief" (fasad in Arabic).
    Therefore, the "innocent" people you speak of are logically those people who do not commit fasad.
    Here is a reference to Ibn Kathir's tafsir which clearly states that "mischief" includes disbelief and disobeying gods law.
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...sk=view&id=436

    So, on to your "wage war" claim.
    You will notice that 5:33 states that those who "wage war against Allah and his messenger" should be killed. Now obviously, no one can actually "wage war" against Allah because he has no physical presence on earth, so it must be referring to the idea of Allah. This is confirmed in Ibn Kathir's tafsir where he says that "wage war" refers to various crimes "including opposition, contradiction and disbelief".
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...sk=view&id=784

    And anyway, notwithstanding that the verses refer to people who merely refure to submit to Islam, how is execution or crucifixion a just punishment for fighting in a war? Remember that Muhammad and later rulers invaded many lands, and it would only be natural for the people there to "wage war" against the invaders. Is execution really a just punishment for defending your home and family?

    This isn't about what you are taught. This is about what the Quran and sunnah actually say.
    I have noticed that many western Muslims are being taught a sanitised, cherry-picked version of Islam that overlooks all the expansionist violence, religious oppression, discrimination, torture and executions.

    Hopefully you now have a better understanding of those verses. If you still have any questions, feel free to ask.

    Muhammad warned of people who claimed to be Muslims but the Quran would only reach their throat, and also that people who would build lofty and decorated mosques. Both these signs could apply to many Muslim states and communities around the world (especially the likes of Saudi Arabia) but not to ISIS as they make a point of destroying the ornate and decorative.

    When you look at what is actually in the Quran and sunnah, and how Muhammad dealt with enemies and opponents, and how he enforced Islamic law, he would very likely recognise the Islam of Islamic State over the Islam that is taught in the mosques and madrassas of London and Washington.
    From reading this I can see that you're actually extremely uneducated in Islam and therefore, I don't see any point in arguing further. I would urge you to learn about the religion (properly) before speaking about it. Anyways, I pray that Allah guides you so you may see the truth.
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    (Original post by ElyLaw99)
    That's like saying all Muslims are to blame because terrorists within ISIS are immorally killing innocent people.. There are such things as fake Christians. Those who portray that they are Christians yet God knows in their heart that they are not. And I don't know about Islam but I presume they say something similar. Christianity isn't to blame. It is the person. Not the faith. Because the faith does not teach us to take revenge on other people. It teaches us to trust that our God will do justice to them.
    I 100% agree with you. There is such thing as false Muslims too. No religion promotes violence.

    I was trying to make Stewpid, see things from a different perspective. Of course I do not believe Christianity is responsible for the Iraq war, it was Blair who made the decision, not Christianity.

    Just as when ISIS carry out attacks, it's their choice, Islam isn't to blame, they only have themselves to blame.
 
 
 
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