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Wilde_Oscar
To the whole 'buying privileges' thing, it's a hotly contested debate. Those of us who are cynics think, 'this is the way the world works'. It may be unfair, but you know what? Communism is idealism, and it doesn't work.
To the whole 'buying privileges' thing, it's a hotly contested debate. Those of us who are cynics think, 'this is the way the world works'. It may be unfair, but you know what? Communism is idealism, and it doesn't work.
Did you ever read "The soul of man under Socialism"?
ian-in-northamp
Mussed: yeah, I’m a Tory – but that doesn’t make me a bad person… 
No, so am I. I'm seventeen, my mother is a Social Justice Tory (rare breed, but she's one of these city seats people if you read the column on page fifteen of some papers about *that* initiative). I write letters to Michael Howard on the state of the party, and I don't think it's electable yet, but I follow the principles. I am idealistic: I spent my summer in Africa, and you have to be idealistic to get past the fact that, in reality, everyone in the village I stayed in will be dead in ten years of AIDS. Now doesn't that just put uni apps into perspective?
What does make me a bad person, I guess, is that I don’t buy into this idea that going for interview training is an immoral thing. Apart from anything else – and I’m nothing if not a master of the specious argument – it comes back to the whole leveling down thing. Yes, let’s stop people being able to get into university because their parents could afford £200. Let’s also ensure they’re all dressed in black, from Milletts, so no-one is advantaged by what they wear. Let’s not have oral interviews, so that no-one is disadvantaged by their accent. In fact, let’s not have written interviews either so that no-one’s disadvantaged by their inability to spell or punctuate or construct a grammatical sentence. Of course, having done away with written interviews, you lose the bonus of being able to disguise whether the applicant is male or female, attractive or less so such that no-one is disadvantaged by their sex or their appearance. I could go on… In life, you take advantage of every advantage you can get. I know, it’s cynical, it’s certainly not socialist and it won’t win me many friends around here. Let’s just try and remember that no-one is cheating or doing anything underhand by going on interview technique training – they’re taking advantage of something that’s entirely legal and that brings out attributes they already had. If my daughter were to go on the course, and got in, I wouldn’t feel any the worse about it.
But Intercity raises an interesting point about people ‘overachieving’. Being a product of the old grammar school system, I saw many friends pushed to the very edges of their abilities and beyond. They got to university – and fell apart. They found themselves among peers who were ‘naturally’ bright and didn’t have to be pushed to achieve.
Hasn’t this thread taken an interesting turn?
But Intercity raises an interesting point about people ‘overachieving’. Being a product of the old grammar school system, I saw many friends pushed to the very edges of their abilities and beyond. They got to university – and fell apart. They found themselves among peers who were ‘naturally’ bright and didn’t have to be pushed to achieve.
Hasn’t this thread taken an interesting turn?
I know many overachievers and they do just fall apart. I am an underachiever, though, so I kind of envy them their determination.
The point I was making - or trying to make - is that these people who pay for these things are in some ways making a mistake. In most cases it's an excellent investment, because if they make it it'll probably improve their chances in all sorts of things (a mediocre Oxbridge graduate being generally preferred to mediocre ones from other unis, however wrong that is). It's just that my personal ethic wouldn't allow me to do that: to get a place by what I see to be false pretences. However, it is an impact of the marketplace and it is just in many ways catching up with the info that feeder schools give their applicants as standard. It's just that personally I would always see people who did these courses as somehow less deserving. Maybe I'm just an intellectual snob.
I think Communism works if the will of everyone is to strive towards it. Dissent destroys it. Pity, because I do like it as an ideal - I just think that if it isn't fixed in the minds then it encourages everyone to do nothing as the State Will Provide.
Nope. I'll freely admit that all I was doing was quoting various opinions brought up in the past in attempt to stop the circling. Instead, I appear to have ruffled feathers. I *do* apologise. And on the communism front - Russia. China. Aldous Huxley. Orwell.
I'll freely admit that all I was doing was quoting various opinions brought up in the past in attempt to stop the circling. Instead, I appear to have ruffled feathers. I *do* apologise. And on the communism front - Russia. China. Aldous Huxley. Orwell.musicboy
hmmm, well i don't see it that way. Communism is about a system of understanding the world through economics and socio-economic dialectics. It is about trying to stive not for equality but satiation and satisfaction (from each according to his ability. to each according to his need etc).
I could have sworn that when I first started reading this thread a few days ago, it was about someone's daughter applying to Oxbridge and not a debate on "Is communism idealism?"
One could advance the argument that Ian's daughter is already at an advantage over other applicants because of him. He is a bright and well educated man who cares about her and getting her a good education. Many people will not have that kind of a father. I guess he is a man who has books at home and promotes activites that lead to self improvement. Having seem some people's homes it is hard to this as anything but an advantage.
Given this she is on a level playing field with some other applicants and ahead of a few others.
I question the value of intervire training beacuse:
1. Oxford loaths the people who run the courses - I know this for a fact. They would not be best pleased if they found out.
2. Over-coached candidates will be spotted and will be disadvantaged because of it.
3. She may be tempted to deliver a pre-prepared argument from the sessions - this will sound bad.
5. If she is good enough she shouldn't need them. Only they are the judge of this, not us.
I would spend the £200 on a smart outfit. This will make more of a difference. I did this, and felt that with a good quality suit and shirt I presented myself better than I would have done with a set of coached answers.
Given this she is on a level playing field with some other applicants and ahead of a few others.
I question the value of intervire training beacuse:
1. Oxford loaths the people who run the courses - I know this for a fact. They would not be best pleased if they found out.
2. Over-coached candidates will be spotted and will be disadvantaged because of it.
3. She may be tempted to deliver a pre-prepared argument from the sessions - this will sound bad.
5. If she is good enough she shouldn't need them. Only they are the judge of this, not us.
I would spend the £200 on a smart outfit. This will make more of a difference. I did this, and felt that with a good quality suit and shirt I presented myself better than I would have done with a set of coached answers.
InterCity125
One could advance the argument that Ian's daughter is already at an advantage over other applicants because of him. He is a bright and well educated man.
I thought he was a Tory...
musicboy
Do you feel like backing this up. I'd be interested to discover why as I am yet to find a reason.
Do you feel like backing this up. I'd be interested to discover why as I am yet to find a reason.
I would say it is down to human nature. I think that the liberals or even conservatives have a better take on this than socialists. People are greedy and are unwilling to relinquish power. Also that for many the standard of living drops under social/communism is a compelling reason not to support it.
InterCity125
I would say it is down to human nature. I think that the liberals or even conservatives have a better take on this than socialists. People are greedy and are unwilling to relinquish power. Also that for many the standard of living drops under social/communism is a compelling reason not to support it.
This is, somewhat sadly, very true. It would be nice to think humans were capable of communism.
mussed
I think Communism works if the will of everyone is to strive towards it. Dissent destroys it. Pity, because I do like it as an ideal - I just think that if it isn't fixed in the minds then it encourages everyone to do nothing as the State Will Provide.
I think Communism works if the will of everyone is to strive towards it. Dissent destroys it. Pity, because I do like it as an ideal - I just think that if it isn't fixed in the minds then it encourages everyone to do nothing as the State Will Provide.
I disagree. you have to understand that dialectics of production are fueled by dissenters and also that a communist revolution will not come about as a result of consensus but as a result of violent class antagonisms. It is also impossible to stop these antagonisms reoccuring post-revolution. In terms of it being fixed in the minds, the standard argument is the achievement of "class-consciousness" at a revolutionary point. If you are interested I can give you some references of some interesting essays on it by Lukacs and Adorno.
MB
Wilde_Oscar
Nope. I'll freely admit that all I was doing was quoting various opinions brought up in the past in attempt to stop the circling. Instead, I appear to have ruffled feathers. I *do* apologise. And on the communism front - Russia. China. Aldous Huxley. Orwell.
I'll freely admit that all I was doing was quoting various opinions brought up in the past in attempt to stop the circling. Instead, I appear to have ruffled feathers. I *do* apologise. And on the communism front - Russia. China. Aldous Huxley. Orwell.well Russia had a revolution when only 10% of the population were proletarians and 80% were feudal classes. Of course it was impossible for peasants to understand fully the aims of the revolution. Before long the leadership had become very totalitarian as shown by the slaughter of the sailors in kronstadt. As for china that was even more totalitarian (although I don't believe either were "state capitalist" as some have suggested). I don't really know about Aldous Huxley but I know for certain that from 1945 onwards he was giving names of communists to MI5. orwells books address the problem of the soviet union but not satisfactorily. 1984 suggests that we should not fight the system while Animal farm fails to show the economic distinction between and market and a commad economy and focuses solely on social factors (something which marxists explicitly object to).
MB
InterCity125
I would say it is down to human nature. I think that the liberals or even conservatives have a better take on this than socialists. People are greedy and are unwilling to relinquish power. Also that for many the standard of living drops under social/communism is a compelling reason not to support it.
Oh, come on. This is twaddl and you know it. Humans are naturally hunter gathers - does that mean we should still live like that? Humans naturally are tribal? should we live like that. Why do you assume that capitalism is a result of human nature. what you shoulad actually consider is that the greed is a result of the capitalist society which we live in rather than the society being a result of the greed. As for a drop in the standard of living I wuld like to see you explain how it can be worse when america dump millions of tonnes of grain into the pacific each year while people are starving because it would "reduce the profitability of American farmers' work"
MB
musicboy
greed is a result of the capitalist society which we live in
This, as they say, is twaddle, and you know it. Every human society in recorded history has been affected by greed. Some more than others, obviously, but it's always been present. Even idealistic Communism is fuelled by greed - the workers' revolution is driven not by their idealism, but by their wish to improve their standard of living from the one supposedly imposed upon them by the Capitalists.
Wow – what have I started? We’re waaaay off topic – but the thread is at 2,200+ views (many more than the average editorial column in The Sun) and counting so we must be discussing something interesting… I’ll just pop my head above the parapet again.
First, let me say that, all moral and ethical considerations aside, I’m not sure there’s a father or mother in the land who wouldn’t willingly spend £200 if he/she thought it would help their son’s or daughter’s dreams come true (much like IC125’s father).
But on to more interesting matters… On the communism debate, it won’t surprise you to hear I’m with Wilde Oscar and HE. Our view of human nature may be a cynical one, but it’s a view: people are, for the most part, self-seeking and self-centred. They’ll vote for any system that they think will leave them better off. Period. If one was deeply cynical, one could say that someone who votes socialist or communist knowing that they’ll end up worse off is doing so only to assuage their conscience – they feel better about themselves, even though they’re poorer as a result.
Musicboy: unfortunately, my daughter has about the same pragmatic attitude to life that her father does. No, she wouldn’t like it – but she’d be happy enough to take advantage of it if it fell her way. (For example: if she fails to get into Oxford, and decides not to apply a second time, she’ll probably apply to York. That’s where I went, and the chancellor-elect there is one Greg Dyke, with whom I used to play football and with whom I was recently in touch. I’ll probably contact him to let him know she’s applying…) Now: get some sleep!
IC125: thanks for the kind words. And I absolutely agree with you on all the potential downsides of interview training – it’s by no means what the Americans call a ‘shoo in’.
Oldthrashbarg: ner ner ni ner ner…
Musicboy: ‘twaddle’ isn’t quite up to the standard of your previous arguments. I think you argue better sleep-deprived and alcohol-imbibed…
First, let me say that, all moral and ethical considerations aside, I’m not sure there’s a father or mother in the land who wouldn’t willingly spend £200 if he/she thought it would help their son’s or daughter’s dreams come true (much like IC125’s father).
But on to more interesting matters… On the communism debate, it won’t surprise you to hear I’m with Wilde Oscar and HE. Our view of human nature may be a cynical one, but it’s a view: people are, for the most part, self-seeking and self-centred. They’ll vote for any system that they think will leave them better off. Period. If one was deeply cynical, one could say that someone who votes socialist or communist knowing that they’ll end up worse off is doing so only to assuage their conscience – they feel better about themselves, even though they’re poorer as a result.
Musicboy: unfortunately, my daughter has about the same pragmatic attitude to life that her father does. No, she wouldn’t like it – but she’d be happy enough to take advantage of it if it fell her way. (For example: if she fails to get into Oxford, and decides not to apply a second time, she’ll probably apply to York. That’s where I went, and the chancellor-elect there is one Greg Dyke, with whom I used to play football and with whom I was recently in touch. I’ll probably contact him to let him know she’s applying…) Now: get some sleep!
IC125: thanks for the kind words. And I absolutely agree with you on all the potential downsides of interview training – it’s by no means what the Americans call a ‘shoo in’.
Oldthrashbarg: ner ner ni ner ner…
Musicboy: ‘twaddle’ isn’t quite up to the standard of your previous arguments. I think you argue better sleep-deprived and alcohol-imbibed…
musicboy
If you are interested I can give you some references of some interesting essays on it by Lukacs and Adorno.
That would be good.
ian-in-northamp
I know a lot of these people. They often also send their kids to state schools and then make them have four hours of private tutoring when they come home, in my experience. A waste of time for the kids.
In any case, ian, IC's points were valid. Don't worry too much about your daughter - just give her a decent, scary mock interview
Acaila
There's only one problem with communism: Human nature
see my earlier point. Do you think that capiutalism is more natural and thus more viable. if you do then you are wrong because capitalism is based on normative values which were questioned by marx in das capital - is "free and fair exchange" actually free and fair?
MB
ian-in-northamp
First, let me say that, all moral and ethical considerations aside, I’m not sure there’s a father or mother in the land who wouldn’t willingly spend £200 if he/she thought it would help their son’s or daughter’s dreams come true (much like IC125’s father).
First, let me say that, all moral and ethical considerations aside, I’m not sure there’s a father or mother in the land who wouldn’t willingly spend £200 if he/she thought it would help their son’s or daughter’s dreams come true (much like IC125’s father).
Would you buy cocaine for your daughter if it was her dream to have it. if you wouldn't then please consider whether this is ann ethical decision. If it is then your point is flawed.
ian-in-northamp
But on to more interesting matters… On the communism debate, it won’t surprise you to hear I’m with Wilde Oscar and HE. Our view of human nature may be a cynical one, but it’s a view: people are, for the most part, self-seeking and self-centred. They’ll vote for any system that they think will leave them better off. Period. If one was deeply cynical, one could say that someone who votes socialist or communist knowing that they’ll end up worse off is doing so only to assuage their conscience – they feel better about themselves, even though they’re poorer as a result.
but you have to remember that individualism is almost completely a result of the bourgeois enlightenment - maybe i'll post more about this later.
ian-in-northamp
Musicboy: unfortunately, my daughter has about the same pragmatic attitude to life that her father does. No, she wouldn’t like it – but she’d be happy enough to take advantage of it if it fell her way. (For example: if she fails to get into Oxford, and decides not to apply a second time, she’ll probably apply to York. That’s where I went, and the chancellor-elect there is one Greg Dyke, with whom I used to play football and with whom I was recently in touch. I’ll probably contact him to let him know she’s applying…) Now: get some sleep!
Musicboy: ‘twaddle’ isn’t quite up to the standard of your previous arguments. I think you argue better sleep-deprived and alcohol-imbibed…
Musicboy: ‘twaddle’ isn’t quite up to the standard of your previous arguments. I think you argue better sleep-deprived and alcohol-imbibed…
You wouldn't like it if other stopped your daughter getting into york because they new a back entrance so I don't think you should do that yourself. Of course we are talking in ethics so there are no "answers" *slaps self for sounding like a post-modernist*. Maybe you are happy to live your life like that by I wouldn't be happy with it. As for twaddle, yes, I was tired but i've slept now and accept that I shouldn't have yused that word. I was just angry but I mustn't let that cloud my reason.
MB
mussed
That would be good.
Ok, the best Lukacs essays are in a book called "History and class consciousness". The best is called "reification and the class consciosness of the proletariat". In terms of Adorno, a good place start is some of the essays in "the culture industry" published by routledge.
MB
musicboy
Do you think that capiutalism is more natural and thus more viable. if you do then you are wrong because capitalism is based on normative values which were questioned by marx in das capital - is "free and fair exchange" actually free and fair?
This post is unbelievably arrogant. Firstly, you don't even think of giving an intelligent girl credit for basing her beliefs on the world around her, you immediately ascribe them to some undefined set of normative values (whatever that is). Secondly, having done this, you dismiss these values out of hand (despite your apparent belief that they are almost universal within the Western world) not because Marx proved them wrong, but merely becaused he questioned them! And this despite Marx being so spectacularly wrong about so many other things.
Would you buy cocaine for your daughter if it was her dream to have it. if you wouldn't then please consider whether this is ann ethical decision. If it is then your point is flawed.
Would you admit the consequences of gaining an Oxbridge places are incomparable to a cocaine habit? If so your point is flawed
but you have to remember that individualism is almost completely a result of the bourgeois enlightenment - maybe i'll post more about this later.
This comment can be dismissed out of hand for two reasons: firstly, your complete lack of evidence with which to back it up; and secondly, the fact that individualism was alive and well centuries before the enlightenment (your failure to define this makes it harder to quote evidence, but Magna Carta is an obvious example of fighting for the rights of the individual).
Musicboy: I’m going to sound patronising. I’m hating myself for it as I write, but I can’t help myself. Your posts are full of the certainties of youth. Good for you! Nothing will ever seem as certain to you in the future as it does now. Hold on to it for as long as you can. As I’ve got older, one of the things I’ve lost – or gained, it depends on how you look at it – is that blind conviction that something is unutterably, inalienably ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ (or ‘twaddle’ ). Unfortunately, because you’re an intelligent person (there I go, patronising again) it will inevitably happen to you, because each new experience you take on board will subtly modify how you think. If it doesn’t, you’re – one is - missing the point of living. Only the terminally stupid carry their youthful absolute convictions with them to their graves. Blacks and whites become shades of grey: for every case, there is a counter-case; for every rule, there is an exception: for every purpose under heaven, there is a time (Ecclesiastes, arr. Seeger/Ian in Northampton). How can I believe, for example, that it’s ethical for me to download music or buy copied software on the basis that I don’t like the music/need the software enough ever to pay the going rate for them (thus, in my own mind, I’m not depriving the artist/author of his/her dues) – but acknowledge that that thinking is fundamentally flawed when you apply it to acquiring a Porsche (which I also don’t want enough to ever consider paying for it): now that would be stealing…
Specifically, though, it’s hard to swallow someone claiming “Marx questioned that” as if, right there, ipso facto proof existed that one view is right and another wrong. I’m right behind H&E on this one. Marx has an opinion: I have another. The only difference between the two of us is Marx’s greater talent for self-publicity. Lukcas and Adorno? Puh-leease… And you know what’s hardest to take about the politics of the left wing? Its language! From no-one else will you hear ‘dialectics of production’ and ‘normative values’ and ‘bourgeois enlightenment’. I guess that was what turned me away from socialism when I was at university: I couldn’t understand how supposedly intelligent people could take on board such warped and stilted language which was patently designed to give a false perception of intellectual credibility to positions that were scarcely, in my view, sustainable. At least when the right wing argue, they argue in English.
And there’s me beating myself up for sounding patronising, when I catch sight of “Of course it was impossible for peasants to understand fully the aims of the revolution”. I guess you mean they failed to understand that the aims of this conscientious revolution were to condemn a majority of the population to a feudalism unknown in this country for several hundred years, in order to sustain the privilege and power of the few? They failed to understand that the true motives of those who claimed to be freeing them from their chains was actually to enslave them in perpetuity? They failed to understand that what they were told was the politics of conscience and reason was actually the politics of self-preservation and the acquisition of absolute and unfettered power? Yeah, I bet they failed to understand.
Musicboy, I know this post sounds like a personal attack on you, and I guess it is. But the point of it is only to try to help (Damn! I patronised again…) You have your opinions, and I absolutely respect your right to hold them, much as I may disagree with them. I may think your opinions are misguided or flawed or imperfectly formed – but I would never be so arrogant as to say they were wrong. You’ll have a great time at Oxbridge because you’ll be with a bunch of other people who are as smart as you are – but unless you learn to meet people half way, to actually listen to what they say, to modify your position in the light of new knowledge and different experiences, you will alienate huge numbers of them – and not get from university what you could and should. Patronise over…
). Unfortunately, because you’re an intelligent person (there I go, patronising again) it will inevitably happen to you, because each new experience you take on board will subtly modify how you think. If it doesn’t, you’re – one is - missing the point of living. Only the terminally stupid carry their youthful absolute convictions with them to their graves. Blacks and whites become shades of grey: for every case, there is a counter-case; for every rule, there is an exception: for every purpose under heaven, there is a time (Ecclesiastes, arr. Seeger/Ian in Northampton). How can I believe, for example, that it’s ethical for me to download music or buy copied software on the basis that I don’t like the music/need the software enough ever to pay the going rate for them (thus, in my own mind, I’m not depriving the artist/author of his/her dues) – but acknowledge that that thinking is fundamentally flawed when you apply it to acquiring a Porsche (which I also don’t want enough to ever consider paying for it): now that would be stealing…Specifically, though, it’s hard to swallow someone claiming “Marx questioned that” as if, right there, ipso facto proof existed that one view is right and another wrong. I’m right behind H&E on this one. Marx has an opinion: I have another. The only difference between the two of us is Marx’s greater talent for self-publicity. Lukcas and Adorno? Puh-leease… And you know what’s hardest to take about the politics of the left wing? Its language! From no-one else will you hear ‘dialectics of production’ and ‘normative values’ and ‘bourgeois enlightenment’. I guess that was what turned me away from socialism when I was at university: I couldn’t understand how supposedly intelligent people could take on board such warped and stilted language which was patently designed to give a false perception of intellectual credibility to positions that were scarcely, in my view, sustainable. At least when the right wing argue, they argue in English.
And there’s me beating myself up for sounding patronising, when I catch sight of “Of course it was impossible for peasants to understand fully the aims of the revolution”. I guess you mean they failed to understand that the aims of this conscientious revolution were to condemn a majority of the population to a feudalism unknown in this country for several hundred years, in order to sustain the privilege and power of the few? They failed to understand that the true motives of those who claimed to be freeing them from their chains was actually to enslave them in perpetuity? They failed to understand that what they were told was the politics of conscience and reason was actually the politics of self-preservation and the acquisition of absolute and unfettered power? Yeah, I bet they failed to understand.
Musicboy, I know this post sounds like a personal attack on you, and I guess it is. But the point of it is only to try to help (Damn! I patronised again…) You have your opinions, and I absolutely respect your right to hold them, much as I may disagree with them. I may think your opinions are misguided or flawed or imperfectly formed – but I would never be so arrogant as to say they were wrong. You’ll have a great time at Oxbridge because you’ll be with a bunch of other people who are as smart as you are – but unless you learn to meet people half way, to actually listen to what they say, to modify your position in the light of new knowledge and different experiences, you will alienate huge numbers of them – and not get from university what you could and should. Patronise over…
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