As a feminist how can I bring myself to respect some Islamic countries? Watch

Miss Maddie
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I know local men and women are challenging the status quo and fighting for women's rights. I respect those people! The problem I have is the people who aren't.

In some Islamic cultures women can't set up a bank account. They can't have a job without their husband's permission. Any money they do earn goes to their husband (effectively slavery). They are forced to use separate entrances to places. They are forced to dress in a certain way. They can't be seen with men who aren't their kin. They can't date.

Some might say this a question of West vs East and it might be. What I want to know is all my values as a feminist fight for liberalisation and equality for women. I want to end repression.

The treatment of women in some places goes against those values. How can I respect those cultures where women are treated as second class citizens whilst being a feminist?

This also goes for non-Islamic cultures where the same problems exist.
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k.n.h.
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I wouldn't respect the action of countries implementing or sustaining these principles and laws anyway. I'm not sure what you mean by your question, if those cultures go against your values, you can propose a change of some practices in said cultures and still be a feminist.. :confused:
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Ray_Shadows
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march up to iraq , knock on their door and say whatever u said here to them


hope this helped
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NonIndigenous
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
How can I respect those cultures where women are treated as second class citizens whilst being a feminist?
You can't. Not in such a generalized fashion.

You can 'dissect' their culture into it's constituent parts, and respect some of those parts and not others. But really, to be frank, it's not our fight. I've observed that generally, unless the situation is truly awful and life threatening, barging in on people's behalf to solve their problems doesn't win their gratitude. You'll always be an 'outsider'. The bonds between those people are stronger than with outsiders, even those that intervene to help one side or the other. Once it is over, they have little use left for you.

Even when life threatening, I think this still holds true most of the time.

It's been true in almost any context. Geopolitics, or personal relationships. It's just people. Too many people have too much damn pride to admit they need help sometimes, or to even admit anything is wrong in the first place, or admit that they ever received help when they did. They could even turn against you, and they may even be right to do so. Not on you personally. My point here is, many people who barge in to "help someone" often do it out of some kind of self-interest, especially in politics, that is possibly infected with even up to 10x more psychopaths than the average population. Foreign aid is not really "help" as much as it is a ponzi scheme justified by principles of "income redistribution", only 20% of which goes to the people that 'need' it. 20% help, 80% fraud? Asides from administrative costs, I do not see any good reasons for this disparity.

Ultimately you can only help people who want to be helped. And there are some. Personally I'm not prepared to waste time on anything else. And at the same time, people are generally better off solving their own problems instead of living in debt to someone else the rest of their lives.

Sorry. There are no simple answers. I really have none. You have the most power to help individuals in your immediate environment, ones you can actually help in person. When you're talking about something on the opposite side of the planet, what it really implies is trusting other people to help on your behalf by donating them money for example. They'll spend x% of it on advertisements showing how well they're doing, before it's even reached the people it's supposed to help. Unless you yourself want to travel there, which I suppose is one of the more practical solutions.

It's sick, and personally I'd like the people responsible for it hunted down by Liam Neeson, but there's little that can be done about it. Not giving them your money is a start, or if you do, research first and be sure it's spent right (which takes time to do).
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muqu
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dear maddie,
i think that i'm eligible to speak on this subject as i'm living in the middle east. firstly, you have mentioned about bank account, salary, dating, etc.. where women are "restricted", well... that's only in Saudi Arabia and no other country in the middle east has those rules and that's not islamic culture to begin with (even though i'm not a muslim). but i cant blame you on your misunderstanding as we in the middle east already know the power of media propaganda in the west and how it's manipulating public opinion by demonizing for example iran or russia or china who don't agree with the western traditions and who are considered eastern. secondly, in the middle east the law doesn't forbid women to go on dates, have social meetings with men or have relationships rather it's their families who forbid them to do that, "some families" not all, and they don't force women to wear the headscarf it's them who want to wear it like my mother who is a muslim by the way. but in case of iran, i can say that the government itself is reforming and moving away from conservatism. all cultures are different, some cultures allow women to freely show their body (including private parts) while other cultures say otherwise. humans are diverse in their thinking and decisions on how they want to live their lives, you just can't force other people to live their lives like yours.
PS: sorry for my bad English, it's not my mother tongue.
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username3482522
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i thought this was bait.
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username2752874
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
I know local men and women are challenging the status quo and fighting for women's rights. I respect those people! The problem I have is the people who aren't.

In some Islamic cultures women can't set up a bank account. They can't have a job without their husband's permission. Any money they do earn goes to their husband (effectively slavery). They are forced to use separate entrances to places. They are forced to dress in a certain way. They can't be seen with men who aren't their kin. They can't date.

Some might say this a question of West vs East and it might be. What I want to know is all my values as a feminist fight for liberalisation and equality for women. I want to end repression.

The treatment of women in some places goes against those values. How can I respect those cultures where women are treated as second class citizens whilst being a feminist?

This also goes for non-Islamic cultures where the same problems exist.
You're a feminist, but have a history of slut shaming? https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=3659227 with any woman who has casual sex being considered "immoral"
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DetectivePeralta
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Erm...you don't? I doubt they'd care what someone in the UK thinks of their society
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Ray_Shadows
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(Original post by Kyber Ninja)
You're a feminist, but have a history of slut shaming? https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=3659227 with any woman who has casual sex being considered "immoral"
oof exposed
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by Kyber Ninja)
You're a feminist, but have a history of slut shaming? https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/sho....php?t=3659227 with any woman who has casual sex being considered "immoral"
What's you point? Feminism doesn't have to be liberal feminism.

Liberal feminism: my body and my choices.
Other feminism (name I've forgotten): casual sex is giving into the demand of men and becoming a slab of meat in the patriarchal status quo.
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Abcdefghijk123
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I am also interested in this. When I went abroad to Africa, women were so restricted and there were so many rules for women such as ‘cover your shoulders and knees otherwise you won’t be respected’ and ‘women should not been seen smoking but it’s fine for men’. It annoyed me.

Although I do agree with other posters. If we go over there and start telling them to give women independence, I doubt they’ll listen to us. I’m sure they will catch up. Eventually. It happens very slowly over time; it won’t happen overnight. Remember when we looked down on black people and gays? The hatred went away slowly but surely.
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CoolCavy
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cat_mac
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Who’s asking you to respect it? What situation would you feel pressure to show respect to (what sounds like) Saudi laws? Your opinion on it is a non-issue.
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Mesopotamian.
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Can you please be specific about which countries you're talking about? It's rather annoying when people generalize Islamic/Arab/Middle Eastern countries as one unit based on incomplete and often incorrect facts and ignore the fact that there are several different 'Islamic' countries which actually don't treat women like trash by law (shock horror, I know).
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NonIndigenous
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
What's you point? Feminism doesn't have to be liberal feminism.

Liberal feminism: my body and my choices.
Other feminism (name I've forgotten): casual sex is giving into the demand of men and becoming a slab of meat in the patriarchal status quo.
Interesting variation.

I've not observed girls who get hammered 3 times a weeks and sleeping with Tom **** & Harry being any more happy or feeling 'fulfilled' than those that do not.

Just, complete lack of impulse control. No delayed gratification. No patience for anything. Like a gaming addiction, where sudden depression sets in the instant you're torn away from the monitor, even just for a toilet break.

If this lifestyle is meant to be 'liberating', then, I suppose too bad it isn't all that was promised.
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username2752874
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
What's you point? Feminism doesn't have to be liberal feminism.

Liberal feminism: my body and my choices.
Other feminism (name I've forgotten): casual sex is giving into the demand of men and becoming a slab of meat in the patriarchal status quo.
Thinking that girls have casual sex for the sole purpose of pleasing men is patriarchal in itself. Feminism being equal rights and opportunities for both sexes clearly doesn't coincide with your viewpoint if you're holding women to a different standard, and hence isn't feminist.

Asterisk feminist seems more appropriate.
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username3482522
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
I know local men and women are challenging the status quo and fighting for women's rights. I respect those people! The problem I have is the people who aren't.

In some Islamic cultures women can't set up a bank account. They can't have a job without their husband's permission. Any money they do earn goes to their husband (effectively slavery). They are forced to use separate entrances to places. They are forced to dress in a certain way. They can't be seen with men who aren't their kin. They can't date.

Some might say this a question of West vs East and it might be. What I want to know is all my values as a feminist fight for liberalisation and equality for women. I want to end repression.

The treatment of women in some places goes against those values. How can I respect those cultures where women are treated as second class citizens whilst being a feminist?

This also goes for non-Islamic cultures where the same problems exist.
let's put it this way: if you were living in the 19th century in britain, would you still respect the culture, even though there was a lot of misogynistic views engraved in that society during that time period in that place?
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NonIndigenous
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(Original post by num.7)
let's put it this way: if you were living in the 19th century in britain, would you still respect the culture, even though there was a lot of misogynistic views engraved in that society during that time period in that place?
I'd like to answer that as well. Yeah, I would respect those parts of the culture that I thought were 'decent'. Much like with any person, I don't discard someone for being "bad" simply because they have a few opinions I disagree with, or even a lot of opinions. I prefer to judge on actions. The biggest minus is if someone goes beyond minding their own, and starts 'enforcing' their points of view or ideology on others around them. When you believe in a religion, any religion, that heralds itself as the "only true religion"... you can put 2 and 2 together.

To relate that back to the thread topic though... I do honestly find it hard to judge the culture of a place I've never been to. The best I can do in that regard is judge the behaviors of some of the people from that culture that might have migrated to my country, and I'm for the most part not impressed so far with those that make their voices heard, with exceptions made for various students I've mingled with, but those come from very different backgrounds than your average person, and have quite different aspirations. There may very well be a 'silent majority'. Anywhere you go, any people you deal with, it tends to be the obnoxious ones yelling the loudest that need to be taken down a few pegs from time to time. And the time is coming.

I've not investigated enough, but seen evidence to suggest younger Muslim populations in the UK are actually at higher risk of being radicalized than in their home countries. Now, that I can concede, is not a problem that originates in their home countries. Although there is a network of dirty money bankrolling some of these 'schemes' that does apparently originate from some of the countries in those regions, it's not quite the fault of the migrants, 2nd generation or otherwise.

.
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YixingZhang
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
I know local men and women are challenging the status quo and fighting for women's rights. I respect those people! The problem I have is the people who aren't.

In some Islamic cultures women can't set up a bank account. They can't have a job without their husband's permission. Any money they do earn goes to their husband (effectively slavery). They are forced to use separate entrances to places. They are forced to dress in a certain way. They can't be seen with men who aren't their kin. They can't date.

Some might say this a question of West vs East and it might be. What I want to know is all my values as a feminist fight for liberalisation and equality for women. I want to end repression.

The treatment of women in some places goes against those values. How can I respect those cultures where women are treated as second class citizens whilst being a feminist?

This also goes for non-Islamic cultures where the same problems exist.
That’s the thing, they’re not Islamic. It’s just the culture of the country.
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Terranova
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
What's you point? Feminism doesn't have to be liberal feminism.

Liberal feminism: my body and my choices.
Other feminism (name I've forgotten): casual sex is giving into the demand of men and becoming a slab of meat in the patriarchal status quo.
You should have no quarrel with Islam.
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