The Student Room Group

Hello, from across the pond. Let's talk US vs UK politics

First off, I'm from Minnesota, USA.
I'm a firearms instructor as a 2nd job, but work in IT as my primary job.

I've been reading about some things that are going on in the UK, and I honestly wanted to know how YOU all felt about them. To me, some of the things you are unable to do, seem insane. But I wanted a real perspective from people who live 'there'.

1. A man was recently prosecuted for some youtube video where his dog did some Sig Heil Nazi thing. I believe that was in the UK. How do you feel about being unable to express yourself freely?

2. I saw an ad on a gun forum here in the US talking about being "knife free" in the UK. LIke this is an actual advertisement?! What are you supposed to do if someone attacks you? Just let them? How do you feel about that?

Name is Chris....I hope to have an HONEST and open dialogue with you all.

Scroll to see replies

Howdy partner, the name's Billy John! Yeee-haw! I too am an American man, say what on darn tootin' you here for?

Spoiler

So do people normally walk around with knives in the US? Knife attacks aren't really a common thing here so it's not a major concern for most people.

I mean, I had a pair of scissors in my pencil case at school (for innocently cutting up random papers teachers give us to stick into our books) and apparently that was too much 🌚🌚🌚
Original post by fruitjacket
First off, I'm from Minnesota, USA.
I'm a firearms instructor as a 2nd job, but work in IT as my primary job.

I've been reading about some things that are going on in the UK, and I honestly wanted to know how YOU all felt about them. To me, some of the things you are unable to do, seem insane. But I wanted a real perspective from people who live 'there'.

1. A man was recently prosecuted for some youtube video where his dog did some Sig Heil Nazi thing. I believe that was in the UK. How do you feel about being unable to express yourself freely?

2. I saw an ad on a gun forum here in the US talking about being "knife free" in the UK. LIke this is an actual advertisement?! What are you supposed to do if someone attacks you? Just let them? How do you feel about that?

Name is Chris....I hope to have an HONEST and open dialogue with you all.


Hello.

Firstly, whilst I respect your democratic political system, it really is just a two party state, centre left or right, mostly right (economically). I don't respect this, as you literally spend billions of dollars in an election campaign, here in the UK I think there is a limit of somesorts. About the two party thing, this is just open for corruption, and it is my firm belief that nothing will destroy America, in this case I think America will destroy itself internally.

Secondly, i'm soooooooooooooooooooooo glad we don't have guns (we do technically but it has to be for a legitimate purpose) we banned handguns in 1997 after 1 and I repeat 1 school shooting. In America, you're willing to legalise guns in protection of the 4th amendment or whatever to 'protect your rights man'. It's pretty ironic that your nation is willing to sacrifice your children for a gun. Like I get it it's the principle of what your country stands for, but at least make it selective when someone buys a gun, I watched a vlogger and he bought an AR-15 in 19 MINUTES! I mean common, seriously?

In terms of safety, yes we take knife crime seriously. Most chavs carry them to some degree. But it's not a problem because we probably have the best police force in the entire world, who don't shoot 200 people per day (coughs* USA). If someone mugged me I would take the stabbing and carry on than have the humiliation of some street thug taking my belongings.

In terms of democratic freedom here in the UK. I find it rude how you would suggest our free speech is limited. Now in the case of the dog I think political correctness has gone wayyy too far. I mean in the UK if your house is burgled the police no longer come round, and you have to fill in a form, yet if some idiot makes an animal make a funny gesture in today's society then you have three police vans to escort them. But our freedom is great, we can pretty much say what we want when we want as long as it does not incite hatred to another person, which is the principle of free speech anyways.
Hello Fruitjacket,

In response to your message, my personal opinion is that there is a great divergence between the US and Europe's politics rather than a US-UK paradigm [with the divergence factors in a Yankee bias]. The whole structure of our society in the UK is ironically indifferent to central/western Europe's yet the transatlantic relationship is more embedded with the States.

Issues such as fiscal [consolidation] policy, gun control [gun adversity], the [national] health care system, free trade, G/S regulations, welfare [Universal credit] and taxation structures [progressive] are very inline with Europe. Ironically, the policies stated/listed above are very conservative positions compared to the pro-cyclical budget deficit loving, adverse to gun restrictive policies, private insurance driven health care, protectionism dressed up as [un]fair trade, Dodd-Franks repealing, welfare cutting and regressive [with respect to taxation policies] Republican party.

If you have any questions, please feel free to reply.

[P.S. I've worked for our equivalent to the states IRS (HMRC) and I'm an employee for our equivalent department for Social security [DWP] hence my opinion is much more credible than most TSR members.]

Kind regards,

The Asian Tory
Original post by fruitjacket
First off, I'm from Minnesota, USA.
I'm a firearms instructor as a 2nd job, but work in IT as my primary job.

I've been reading about some things that are going on in the UK, and I honestly wanted to know how YOU all felt about them. To me, some of the things you are unable to do, seem insane. But I wanted a real perspective from people who live 'there'.

1. A man was recently prosecuted for some youtube video where his dog did some Sig Heil Nazi thing. I believe that was in the UK. How do you feel about being unable to express yourself freely?

2. I saw an ad on a gun forum here in the US talking about being "knife free" in the UK. LIke this is an actual advertisement?! What are you supposed to do if someone attacks you? Just let them? How do you feel about that?

Name is Chris....I hope to have an HONEST and open dialogue with you all.


We can express ourselves freely; but we must do it responsibly. Sadly due to such a politically correct world its quite subjective nowadays.

With regards to your second point, if someone attacks you, you resort to self defence. Knife attacks are fairly rare around the country. Fight or Flight. Here in U.K we don't resort to whipping our "rootin' tootin' gun" out for much, especially for petty beef. By the time someone stabs you, if there skilled enough and no *****y roadman, you will be dead. Not enough time to whip the M4 out, you know, to "save lives".
1; I think it’s terrifying. It wouldn’t bother me half as much if I knew the government were tackling real issues (such as grooming gangs) properly, but they’re not. The British police are semingly more concerned with policing twitter and stopping trolls than dealing with actual crime and possibly being called racist.

2: We also get acid attacks in some of the more diverse parts of the country.
Reply 7
Original post by fruitjacket

I've been reading about some things that are going on in the UK, and I honestly wanted to know how YOU all felt about them. To me, some of the things you are unable to do, seem insane. But I wanted a real perspective from people who live 'there'.

1. A man was recently prosecuted for some youtube video where his dog did some Sig Heil Nazi thing. I believe that was in the UK. How do you feel about being unable to express yourself freely?


Hello, Chris.

The man in question was convicted of a crime under the Communications Act, essentially for using communications networks (in this case, YouTube) for disseminating material that was essentially obscene.

This is, of course, a crime in the United States too. Yes, they are legislated for very differently, but these differences are a matter of degree rather than type. There is no country on earth where the concept of free speech is not, in some way, balanced against other considerations.

The standards are potentially quite different. Sometimes we have looked across at the United States and seen them as being prudish, or that their laws went too far in this regard. That's the sort of reasonable divergence you'd expect between two different nations. From a British perspective, there was a great deal of debate here too about whether this man, Mark Meechan, ought to have been prosecuted.

2. I saw an ad on a gun forum here in the US talking about being "knife free" in the UK. LIke this is an actual advertisement?! What are you supposed to do if someone attacks you? Just let them? How do you feel about that?


I would assume anyone who goes around the streets of the United Kingdom carrying a weapon on the basis that they might be attacked is pretty paranoid.

In any case, yes, we legislate against the carrying of offensive weapons. For my part, the idea of someone who isn't a criminal going around carrying a knife (or some other weapon) is pretty absurd. Our laws ensure that these weapons - when carried by people with criminal intent - are taken off the streets. The obvious consequence is that the UK has a low murder rate by international standards.

Our laws allow, in any circumstances, the use of reasonable force against someone who attacks you. If someone is trying to kill you, and you kill them with a sharp object, that is of course fine. But there is an entirely different mindset between stabbing someone in self defence with something that happens to be at hand, and going out arming yourself.

(I should probably be clear that these laws operate reasonably and are not universal: if you're going fishing and carrying a knife clearly for that purpose, that is fine; if you're walking home from having bought a set of kitchen knifes, that is fine; if you carry a small penknife for Boy Scout type activities - typically the standard is a folding blade shorter than 3 inches - that is fine.)
(edited 5 years ago)
Reply 8
Original post by johnwilliam1
Hello.

Firstly, whilst I respect your democratic political system, it really is just a two party state, centre left or right, mostly right (economically). I don't respect this, as you literally spend billions of dollars in an election campaign, here in the UK I think there is a limit of somesorts. About the two party thing, this is just open for corruption, and it is my firm belief that nothing will destroy America, in this case I think America will destroy itself internally.

Secondly, i'm soooooooooooooooooooooo glad we don't have guns (we do technically but it has to be for a legitimate purpose) we banned handguns in 1997 after 1 and I repeat 1 school shooting. In America, you're willing to legalise guns in protection of the 4th amendment or whatever to 'protect your rights man'. It's pretty ironic that your nation is willing to sacrifice your children for a gun. Like I get it it's the principle of what your country stands for, but at least make it selective when someone buys a gun, I watched a vlogger and he bought an AR-15 in 19 MINUTES! I mean common, seriously?

In terms of safety, yes we take knife crime seriously. Most chavs carry them to some degree. But it's not a problem because we probably have the best police force in the entire world, who don't shoot 200 people per day (coughs* USA). If someone mugged me I would take the stabbing and carry on than have the humiliation of some street thug taking my belongings.

In terms of democratic freedom here in the UK. I find it rude how you would suggest our free speech is limited. Now in the case of the dog I think political correctness has gone wayyy too far. I mean in the UK if your house is burgled the police no longer come round, and you have to fill in a form, yet if some idiot makes an animal make a funny gesture in today's society then you have three police vans to escort them. But our freedom is great, we can pretty much say what we want when we want as long as it does not incite hatred to another person, which is the principle of free speech anyways.


Systemically, I'll address your topics.
1. WE don't spend billions in campaigns; politicians do, and yes, they are bought and paid for by special interests. This is why most of us in the US don't trust politicians. I agree American will destroy itself from within. Nobody could destroy us externally.

2. I can BUILD an AR15 in 19 minutes. Let alone buy one. I actually own probably 12-13 of them. I don't recall. Owning a firearm is part of our 2nd amendment; and the reason for it is simple. Government cannot ever be fully trusted. The people must be armed in order to keep them in check.
Do people die, unnecessarily in the US by firearms? Of course they do. Long story short, it happens because it's part of the process of being free. None of us gun owners want to see ANYBODY die from a firearm (that doesn't deserve it...for lack of a better term). We also realize that you can't 'wish' away bad people.

Re-read your third point. You take exception with my suggestion that you're not free, and you go on to explain why you can't say what you want.
That's not freedom my friend. If you can't say what you want about others because it might offend them, you are not free. Period.
But I do honestly appreciate the dialogue.
Reply 9
For the record, I also find it "funny" that all of my replies require a moderator to "approve" them.

In the US, you can say whatever you want. Don't like whites, blacks, gays, straights, whatever? You have the right to express your opinion.
If that's censored, you're not free.
Original post by L i b
Hello, Chris.

The man in question was convicted of a crime under the Communications Act, essentially for using communications networks (in this case, YouTube) for disseminating material that was essentially obscene.

This is, of course, a crime in the United States too. Yes, they are legislated for very differently, but these differences are a matter of degree rather than type. There is no country on earth where the concept of free speech is not, in some way, balanced against other considerations.

The standards are potentially quite different. Sometimes we have looked across at the United States and seen them as being prudish, or that their laws went too far in this regard. That's the sort of reasonable divergence you'd expect between two different nations. From a British perspective, there was a great deal of debate here too about whether this man, Mark Meechan, ought to have been prosecuted.



I would assume anyone who goes around the streets of the United Kingdom carrying a weapon on the basis that they might be attacked is pretty paranoid.

In any case, yes, we legislate against the carrying of offensive weapons. For my part, the idea of someone who isn't a criminal going around carrying a knife (or some other weapon) is pretty absurd. Our laws ensure that these weapons - when carried by people with criminal intent - are taken off the streets. The obvious consequence is that the UK has a low murder rate by international standards.

Our laws allow, in any circumstances, the use of reasonable force against someone who attacks you. If someone is trying to kill you, and you kill them with a sharp object, that is of course fine. But there is an entirely different mindset between stabbing someone in self defence with something that happens to be at hand, and going out arming yourself.

(I should probably be clear that these laws operate reasonably and are not universal: if you're going fishing and carrying a knife clearly for that purpose, that is fine; if you're walking home from having bought a set of kitchen knifes, that is fine; if you carry a small penknife for Boy Scout type activities - typically the standard is a folding blade shorter than 3 inches - that is fine.)


No, my friend. It is not. I can say whatever I please; especially if it is offensive or "obscene".
We thrive on obscene. We live for the offensive.
Original post by fruitjacket

1. A man was recently prosecuted for some youtube video where his dog did some Sig Heil Nazi thing. I believe that was in the UK. How do you feel about being unable to express yourself freely?

2. I saw an ad on a gun forum here in the US talking about being "knife free" in the UK. LIke this is an actual advertisement?! What are you supposed to do if someone attacks you? Just let them? How do you feel about that?


To address your points directly.
1. I am entitled to express myself as I feel fit. But thankfully, like the overwhelming majority of people in the UK, I have absolutely no need whatsoever to offend others. I have no need to train my dog to make Nazi salutes and I have no need to address crowds of racists and call them to attack others simply because of their race, colour or religion. Free speech is all well and good, but just exactly what purpose does being allowed to be racist serve society?

2. How many times have you been attacked on the street? Me - none. My mates - none. The UK and US are generally safe and people do no just attack you out of no where. And if they did attack you, chances are you wouldn't have time to defend yourself with a knife. And even if you did, you are more likely to be injured by your own knife than do an injury to others. Let's face it, the only reason Americans like guns, is because you like guns. Self defence is about the poorest excuse in the world, especially when more kids die from shooting themselves with the household gun, than burglars die being killed by the owner of the house.
Keep your ****ing guns across the pond and slaughter your children, let ours live.
1. a person can express themselves freely enough in private conversations with family and friends etc. but in a public situation anyone has to watch what they say I would have thought and not say racially/culturally insensitive things, or if you do then you should exepect a hostile reaction. anything to do with holocaust is a very sensitive subject here in the uk, you have to be very respectful and the only people allowed to make jokes are the jewish people themselves. it's just how it is.

2. we don't carry knives on us here or see knives as a protection, it's a little crazy that you think that of us. the news stories about knife crime can be big but the crimes themselves don't happen that often and are in certain no-go areas. there is also a problem with acid attacks, so should we be arming ourselves with acid sprays or other weapons to combat them? we are not combative, belligerent people. yes, there are criminals but we don't want to do criminal behaviour ourselves to deal with them. we would prefer the police were more competent. it may sound passive to you, but we find the american 2nd amendment stuff really scary.
1. I’m not really following this nazi dog thing so I won’t comment on it, but I don’t think i’m “unable to express myself freely”. You’re free to say whatever you want here, but there is responsibility for your actions. If someone is harassing someone with their speech then they can get punished. If someone tries to encourage crime against someone(s) then they should pay the price. However I do agree that this could go too far if it isn’t used properly.

2. Never seen or heard of being “knife free” in the UK. Legally you’re not allowed to carry a concealed weapon, which includes knives longer than 3inches. If someone attacks you and you pull out a knife, they can easily take it off you and use it against you. I’ve never felt so unsafe walking in public that I would ever wish I had a knife to protect me. People don’t really attack strangers in the streets here...

I can’t imagine what it’s like to live in the US, knowing you could leave the house and not come back because someone might shoot up the school, the cinema, your place of work. I’m so thankful that we don’t have guns.
@ByEeek


‘What exact purpose does being racist serve society?’

The problem is that the scope for ‘racism’ has grown immensely so virtually anything can be considered racist if framed the right way. That’s not to say that there aren’t racists but that I’d be reluctant to trust any authority with the power to decide this.
Original post by fruitjacket
First off, I'm from Minnesota, USA.
I'm a firearms instructor as a 2nd job, but work in IT as my primary job.

I've been reading about some things that are going on in the UK, and I honestly wanted to know how YOU all felt about them. To me, some of the things you are unable to do, seem insane. But I wanted a real perspective from people who live 'there'.

1. A man was recently prosecuted for some youtube video where his dog did some Sig Heil Nazi thing. I believe that was in the UK. How do you feel about being unable to express yourself freely?

2. I saw an ad on a gun forum here in the US talking about being "knife free" in the UK. LIke this is an actual advertisement?! What are you supposed to do if someone attacks you? Just let them? How do you feel about that?

Name is Chris....I hope to have an HONEST and open dialogue with you all.



Why do you think you're so free just because you have access to firearms? I'm genuinely interested to know why firearms, on a practical, day-to-day reality level, give you "freedom". People in the U.K. also have access to firearms, just not as widely available. Section 1 license holders (most commonly farmers) can legally own bolt action rifles (and shotguns) of any caliber, and can shoot wherever they have permission. The most recent school shooting in the U.K. was over 20 years ago, and caused all handguns to be banned. And shootings are an extremely rare occurrence here as a result.
(edited 5 years ago)
Guns is not something i think we should necessarily have in the U.K. but I don’t believe that guns are the problem- it’s a culture problem- mass shooters are generally from broken homes with drug problems.
Original post by Davij038


The problem is that the scope for ‘racism’ has grown immensely so virtually anything can be considered racist if framed the right way. That’s not to say that there aren’t racists but that I’d be reluctant to trust any authority with the power to decide this.


Why? There is a lot of speculation in the news, but can you point to one instant where someone was taken out of context and prosecuted? All the cases I have read about are perfectly reasonable when looked at in the cold light of day. It is all the hysteria driven mainly by the right wing press of "political correctness gone mad" that is stirring up a mistrust of the law and authority.

But on the flip side - I had to look into the faces of 300+ Muslim students on Thursday's assembly as we talked about the upcoming "Harm a Muslim" day that has been doing the rounds on social media. Many are genuinely terrified by the prospect. That isn't the sort of society I want to live in. So which is it? Laws that prevent hatred or a free-for-all?
Original post by ByEeek
Why? There is a lot of speculation in the news, but can you point to one instant where someone was taken out of context and prosecuted? All the cases I have read about are perfectly reasonable when looked at in the cold light of day. It is all the hysteria driven mainly by the right wing press of "political correctness gone mad" that is stirring up a mistrust of the law and authority.


Tbh i thought the pug case was absurd and clearly taken out of context.

Ok what about this https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/school-called-police-because-boy-visited-ukip-website-on-class-computer-a6899641.html%3famp


But on the flip side - I had to look into the faces of 300+ Muslim students on Thursday's assembly as we talked about the upcoming "Harm a Muslim" day that has been doing the rounds on social media. Many are genuinely terrified by the prospect. That isn't the sort of society I want to live in. So which is it? Laws that prevent hatred or a free-for-all?


But on the flip side many white peoples are also terrified about rising immigration - but I guess they can just shut up and stop being so prejudiced. Their[\i]fears are clearly baseless.

Harm a Muslim day? Never heard of it- sounds a bit uninspired doesn’t it? Also minority groups such as below are well known for crying wolf.

https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/40361/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jewish-man-andrew-king-spray-paint-swastikas-new-york-schenectady-nazi-own-home-a7643996.html%3famp
(edited 5 years ago)

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