Watergate overshadowed all of Nixon's other achievements.

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Astana
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Please help with factors, it is suggested that I can look at Nixon's whole career, not just as President
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Trinculo
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I would use the comparison of Bill Clinton.

Nixon didn't do that much apart from getting out of Vietnam. This was overshadowed by Watergate as the all-time Presidential scandal.

Clinton didn't do much except mess about a bit with Bosnia and Northern Ireland. This was overshadowed by be nearly getting impeached - although with hindsight and all the stuff that came out later it all looks a lot worse. So - the common factor is that the two presidents didn't have anything larger than their scandal.

Compare this to say Obama - nothing will ever be bigger than his ethnicity. Compare this to Reagan who saw the end of the Cold War. Compare this to HW Bush who had the Gulf War, W Bush who had 9/11 and Iraq. JFK getting assassinated. Truman dropping the bomb. For all these Presidents, they have maybe one defining moment. For Nixon it was Watergate.

Think about Presidents like Ford and Jimmy Carter. No one remembers them because nothing really huge happened.
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Astana
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(Original post by Trinculo)
I would use the comparison of Bill Clinton.

Nixon didn't do that much apart from getting out of Vietnam. This was overshadowed by Watergate as the all-time Presidential scandal.

Clinton didn't do much except mess about a bit with Bosnia and Northern Ireland. This was overshadowed by be nearly getting impeached - although with hindsight and all the stuff that came out later it all looks a lot worse. So - the common factor is that the two presidents didn't have anything larger than their scandal.

Compare this to say Obama - nothing will ever be bigger than his ethnicity. Compare this to Reagan who saw the end of the Cold War. Compare this to HW Bush who had the Gulf War, W Bush who had 9/11 and Iraq. JFK getting assassinated. Truman dropping the bomb. For all these Presidents, they have maybe one defining moment. For Nixon it was Watergate.

Think about Presidents like Ford and Jimmy Carter. No one remembers them because nothing really huge happened.
The question is only about Nixon though, and the course doesn't go beyond Nixon.
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Andrew97
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(Original post by Trinculo)
I would use the comparison of Bill Clinton.

Nixon didn't do that much apart from getting out of Vietnam. This was overshadowed by Watergate as the all-time Presidential scandal.

Clinton didn't do much except mess about a bit with Bosnia and Northern Ireland. This was overshadowed by be nearly getting impeached - although with hindsight and all the stuff that came out later it all looks a lot worse. So - the common factor is that the two presidents didn't have anything larger than their scandal.

Compare this to say Obama - nothing will ever be bigger than his ethnicity. Compare this to Reagan who saw the end of the Cold War. Compare this to HW Bush who had the Gulf War, W Bush who had 9/11 and Iraq. JFK getting assassinated. Truman dropping the bomb. For all these Presidents, they have maybe one defining moment. For Nixon it was Watergate.

Think about Presidents like Ford and Jimmy Carter. No one remembers them because nothing really huge happened.
Nixon also did the visit to China. I would say that is important.
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Astana
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(Original post by Andrew97)
Nixon also did the visit to China. I would say that is important.
So you'd counter-argue to say that Nixon's achievements weren't overshadowed by Watergate?
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Trinculo
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(Original post by Astana)
The question is only about Nixon though, and the course doesn't go beyond Nixon.
That's questionable. You're discussing the office of the President, surely the comparison should be explored. Nixon is famous because he's the President. What happend in that office is what makes it important. If Nixon were CEO of some company who spied on another company, it wouldn't have been news.




(Original post by Andrew97)
Nixon also did the visit to China. I would say that is important.
Sure, but you say "Nixon" to someone, and the first thing that will spring to the mind of most people will be "Watergate", not "China" - and that's the point.
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Astana
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(Original post by Trinculo)
That's questionable. You're discussing the office of the President, surely the comparison should be explored. Nixon is famous because he's the President. What happend in that office is what makes it important. If Nixon were CEO of some company who spied on another company, it wouldn't have been news.





Sure, but you say "Nixon" to someone, and the first thing that will spring to the mind of most people will be "Watergate", not "China" - and that's the point.
This is for A Level history, and the question is about Nixon, not just as President, but his whole career. The other Presidents aren't relevant to Nixon's personal achievements
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thuggahthegoat
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(Original post by Trinculo)
That's questionable. You're discussing the office of the President, surely the comparison should be explored. Nixon is famous because he's the President. What happend in that office is what makes it important. If Nixon were CEO of some company who spied on another company, it wouldn't have been news.





Sure, but you say "Nixon" to someone, and the first thing that will spring to the mind of most people will be "Watergate", not "China" - and that's the point.
This is A level, you dont jump out of the syllabus like you suggest.
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thuggahthegoat
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(Original post by Astana)
This is for A Level history, and the question is about Nixon, not just as President, but his whole career. The other Presidents aren't relevant to Nixon's personal achievements
Ignore that idiot.

Best structure is look at Nixon's other achievements and see how impactful they were. Then relate that and see whether it compares to Watergate. Structure is key for open ended essays.
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Astana
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(Original post by thuggahthegoat)
Ignore that idiot.

Best structure is look at Nixon's other achievements and see how impactful they were. Then relate that and see whether it compares to Watergate. Structure is key for open ended essays.
So for the first factor, I'd discuss how Watergate overshadowed his achievements, and then would I counter-argue that Nixon's achievements weren't overshadowed or that there were other reasons for them being overshadowed, other than Watergate?
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thuggahthegoat
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(Original post by Astana)
So for the first factor, I'd discuss how Watergate overshadowed his achievements, and then would I counter-argue that Nixon's achievements weren't overshadowed or that there were other reasons for them being overshadowed, other than Watergate?
Watergate is obviously pretty overwhelming, so the best way to find balance in your essay is to say that there were simply other significant factors which weren't overshadowed.
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(Original post by thuggahthegoat)
Watergate is obviously pretty overwhelming, so the best way to find balance in your essay is to say that there were simply other significant factors which weren't overshadowed.
ok, thanks
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Trinculo
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(Original post by Astana)
This is for A Level history, and the question is about Nixon, not just as President, but his whole career. The other Presidents aren't relevant to Nixon's personal achievements
Then it's easy. He didn't do anything except get out of Vietnam (which was pretty much inevitable and not really much of an achievement) and taking the trip to China.

And I think you're all wrong about "going beyond the syllabus". The impeachment (albeit incomplete) and it's monumental significance are what make Watergate and Nixon so important. If Presidents were impeached all the time, it wouldn't be an issue. It would be folly to try and look at Nixon in isolation. It would be like asking if the abdication defined the reign of Edward VIII. He was the only one to do it voluntarily in a thousand years or more, so of course it did.
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Trinculo
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(Original post by thuggahthegoat)
Then you are agreeing with the original statement. Except no one asked for your opinion idiot.

You've been wholly unhelpful here, OP is asking for factors and its clear you havent got a clue about A level history. Stop being a ****ing moron because its completely ****ing dumb advice to tell someone that they should go beyond the syllabus and talk about irrelevant crap like Obama's race.
^^This. This right here is exactly how you don't go about an academic debate.

What defined the Nixon presidency? Watergate. Anyone dispute that?

What defined the Obama presidency? Being the first black President. Sorry - that's irrelevant crap.

The examiner will not give you credit for considering that Nixon was a President in the office of President and that de facto impeachment was a unique event?

Cool story, bro.
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Trinculo
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(Original post by thuggahthegoat)
This is not an academic debate you dumb ****ing moron. This is advice about an a level history question. Obama's not on the spec therefore they dont credit it.

As I said, no one asked for your ****ing opinion. OP wanted advice about structure and what you put in it and you, being a ******, tells her to mention that Obama's blackness. To score top marks you have to dispute that, but obviously being the simple minded c*nt you are, you cant think critically and simply blurt your stupid simple opinion when no one asked for it.

You're a ****ing tool.
Why so upset?

It might be as well to consider the context of this. It is history, after all.

Is Watergate more important than the trip to China? I would say yes. The question is why - and the answer is that the Watergate led to a de facto impeachment, which is unprecedented, making Nixon forever infamous.

Trips to adversary countries, whilst rare, are not unprecedented. These things have to be taken in the context of the Office of the President. To deny that would be rather narrow minded for a historian.

Sure the question doesn't ask "compare Nixon to other Presidents" but it should be absolutely clear that considering the historic context would be important. Otherwise, you might as well not consider China or Vietnam as they would be outside the remit of the question.
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Trinculo
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(Original post by thuggahthegoat)
Now you're just changing what you're saying. Earlier on you said to compare to other presidencies like an idiot which is completely wrong because it's not in the syllabus.

It's also clear you dont have a clue what happened because theres a lot more but its been long established you're a pseudo-intellectual ****** who doesnt know sh*t.
No. I'm saying the same thing. There would be no problem comparing the Presidencies. Why not? It's the Office of the Presidency as it relates to Richard Nixon that's the issue, not Richard Nixon in isolation.
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Astana
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(Original post by Trinculo)
No. I'm saying the same thing. There would be no problem comparing the Presidencies. Why not? It's the Office of the Presidency as it relates to Richard Nixon that's the issue, not Richard Nixon in isolation.
No, it only refers to Nixon in the question
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(Original post by Astana)
No, it only refers to Nixon in the question
Yes. I am aware of that. What I am saying is that the defining characteristic of Richard Nixon is that he was the 37th President. The defining characteristic of that Presidency was Watergate and his impeachment process.

To answer that question without reference to anything outside of the Nixon Presidency would make for a very narrow and answer. By the same token you might say "no point in talking about China, because the whole relevance of China is outside the question" and the same with Vietnam.

There has to be historical context. Watergate was unprecedented. Clinton had something similar and that's all that he gets remembered for. Same with many modern Presidents.
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(Original post by Trinculo)
Yes. I am aware of that. What I am saying is that the defining characteristic of Richard Nixon is that he was the 37th President. The defining characteristic of that Presidency was Watergate and his impeachment process.

To answer that question without reference to anything outside of the Nixon Presidency would make for a very narrow and answer. By the same token you might say "no point in talking about China, because the whole relevance of China is outside the question" and the same with Vietnam.

There has to be historical context. Watergate was unprecedented. Clinton had something similar and that's all that he gets remembered for. Same with many modern Presidents.
No, the focus is on Nixon, no other President. This course does not cover Clinton or Obama, so stfu
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Trinculo
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(Original post by Astana)
No, the focus is on Nixon, no other President. This course does not cover Clinton or Obama, so stfu
Which board?
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