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Gender is a social construct - unless you're trans?

"Gender is a social construct". As we all know, gender is a socio-cultural invention, having absolutely nothing to do with the established psychological, hormonal, reproductive and physiological differences between the two sexual halves of our species. That is, of course, only if one is 'cis-gendered.'

In 2018, transgendered persons are, apparently, expressing a supposedly innate yet "socially constructed" feeling about their own being. A trans person has somehow developed a dysphoria between two conflicting social inventions. Harry (somehow) only feels like Harriet because of society. However, Harry/Harriet was born that way. Harry/Harriet must come to terms with the fact his/her "true" gender is not true to him/her at all, but rather a socially enforced mixture of meaningless norms and expectations. Society, on the other hand, is also expected to come to terms with the fact that Harry is innately Harriet - a girl. It's the socially constructed gender Harriet truly is.

I know what you're thinking. None of this makes much sense. Many things espoused by the LGBTQA+ community rarely do.

Flash forward to 2038: Gender norms have ceased to be in the new and improved non-binary, progressive society. Harriet is no longer a she, as the very concept of 'she' is a reinforcement of now outdated gender stereotypes. Harriet's gender identity - something she once felt to be intrinsic and true to herself - is effectively erased. Poor Harriet.

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Reply 1
The term 'gender' is itself a social construct, an absolutely meaningless one. You're either male or female and various deviations from the stereotypical 'male' or 'female' character do not mean that your gender is different -- just that you, as any other person, aren't a carbon copy of a stereotypical man or woman. It seems to me the word 'personality' can readily be substituted for 'gender'.

If you're trans then clearly there are structural changes at play in your brain and you're feeling dissonance because your brain is expecting a different body than the one you're in. Nothing to do with 'gender'.
Original post by ilem
The term 'gender' is itself a social construct, an absolutely meaningless one. You're either male or female and various deviations from the stereotypical 'male' or 'female' character do not mean that your gender is different -- just that you, as any other person, aren't a carbon copy of a stereotypical man or woman. It seems to me the word 'personality' can readily be substituted for 'gender'.

If you're trans then clearly there are structural changes at play in your brain and you're feeling dissonance because your brain is expecting a different body than the one you're in. Nothing to do with 'gender'.

Absolutely agree. You've just said simply what I've been thinking whenever I hear gender fluidity/ gender being a social construct and the like.
Original post by ilem
The term 'gender' is itself a social construct, an absolutely meaningless one. You're either male or female and various deviations from the stereotypical 'male' or 'female' character do not mean that your gender is different -- just that you, as any other person, aren't a carbon copy of a stereotypical man or woman. It seems to me the word 'personality' can readily be substituted for 'gender'.

If you're trans then clearly there are structural changes at play in your brain and you're feeling dissonance because your brain is expecting a different body than the one you're in. Nothing to do with 'gender'.


Agreed.

'Man' and 'woman' were always used in conjunction with sex. I see no reason to stop doing so. But being a man doesn't automatically have to define everything about you. Some men are very feminine and like typically feminine things, and that's perfectly OK. It shouldn't stop them from being men or make them feel like they have to identify as women. All this gender identity nonsense unnecessarily complicates things. It makes itself meaningless in the end.
Reply 4
I kind of see where you're going with this?

For starters, gender and sex are defined separately, so that helps to clear things up :smile:
Sex is your biological indicators of male/female or other, and yes there is an 'other' for biology. Obviously hermaphroditism and intersex are both valid and scientifically recognised sex apart from male and female, as there can be a vast difference in the organs, chromosomes and hormones that typically regulate and determine 'female' or 'male'.

that being said, "gender" (oooh scary) is defined as the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones). Now i've always found that gender is fluid, and feel free to rant at me, but people's concepts and definitions of gender and especially their gender is different from others. so i could see a particulary 'butch' looking girl and assume she is trans or feels male because of the way she's dressed/her hair is, because that's what i see as being masculine. for her, it may be that she doesn't see short hair and trousers as being masculine (as they are obviously becoming less so in modern times) so she may well simply identify as female.

the important thing, for me anyway, is how that person feels. if a person hates femininity and dresses and pink and everything 'traditionally' associated with females, then they very well may identify as male because they feel more comfortable being masculine. if someone hates their body and their genitals and wants gender reassignment surgery to change their body to be more inline with what they think it should look like, then they also may identify as trans or the gender they want to be. The important thing is that one isn't MORE valid than the other. it may be that the second person is further down the 'sliding scale' of gender identity than the other, but that doesn't mean that the first person isn't also 'allowed' to be trans or to experience body dysphoria or want to change their appearance.

it may well end up being that gender norms are re-examined and changed to fit more people and be more inclusive of other identities, and i hope that happens. i also think that there are people who go too far (again in my opinion) with things like transracial or identifying as animals or non-human things. the whole apache helicopter thing is obviously great talking point for those that want to put down and invalidate gender identity and trans people, but times change. things aren't static, people aren't static. why should gender be?

tl;dr - poor harriet isn't poor at all. they're fine.
(edited 6 years ago)
This is only an issue when gender is being used to mean a couple of things. Gender as in gender roles, what a man should be and what a woman should be is absolutely a social construct, a set of meaningless ideals that vary based on time (like for instance colour preferences, used to be pink was the masculine colour) and location that most people live outside of anyway. Gender as in psychological/neurological sex is real and may or may not match the physical sex - if it doesn't then you're trans, and it's easier to change the body than the brain.
Are you a fan of BBC's 'Sherlock', perchance? (i.e. your use of the names 'Harry' and 'Harriet')
Meh, why should we be upset because a person - who we probably don't know anyway - feels more like a man than a woman (or vice versa) and it happens to be at odds with the kind of tackle they have? What happened to live and let live?
Reply 8
Original post by Dandaman1
I know what you're thinking. None of this makes much sense. Many things espoused by the LGBTQA+ community rarely do.


It makes plenty of sense if you're willing to educate yourself on some basic psychology and sociology. It's really not rocket science.

We have a set of male/female principles that are inherently biological/physical (genitals, sexual dimorphism, childbirth) and we have a set of male/female principles that are not biological (clothing, hairstyles, manner of speech, pronouns, even colours). In most circumstances, set B is more prominent in our lives than set A.

Transgender and transsexual are not the same thing. They are linked, and many people experience both at the same time. But there is no law saying that someone has to be both or neither. Just as there is no law saying girls must wear skirts (in most countries anyway).

Being trans is complex. There's an awful lot we don't really know much about how the mind works, and the research being done into transgenderism/trassexualism certainly has a long way to go. What is obvious is that, as with most pyschological conditions, not everyone experiences the same thing. Some people know from a very young age that they're "born into the wrong body", others may simply feel more uncomfortable in society as they grow and learn about it. It's not an easy thing to work out but we've made a lot of progress, and there are many avenues available to people experiencing gender dysphoria that have never existed before. We're improving as we go.

Hopefully that clarifies some things. Feel free to ask questions.
Why not just let people define themselves the way they want to? How does it threaten you that they define themselves somewhat differently? Why the pointless heckling?

It’s people like you who make me have nothing but respect for openly trans people. It’s the existence of people like you that makes coming out as trans into a brave, difficult undertaking when it really shouldn’t have to be.
(edited 6 years ago)
I wish I was born later. like in the 2500s.
just so I can see how all this turns out.
Reply 11
Original post by Dez


We have a set of male/female principles that are inherently biological/physical (genitals, sexual dimorphism, childbirth) and we have a set of male/female principles that are not biological (clothing, hairstyles, manner of speech, pronouns, even colours). In most circumstances, set B is more prominent in our lives than set A.



Set B is just as biological as set A. Evolution does not stop at the neck and these traits also evolved the way they did as a result of the different evolutionary pressures experienced by males and females, just like the physical traits did.
Reply 12
Original post by ilem
Set B is just as biological as set A.


Are you trying to be funny? How the hell is the colour pink "just as biological" as a person's bone structure?
Reply 13
Original post by Dez
Are you trying to be funny? How the hell is the colour pink "just as biological" as a person's bone structure?


Colour was not the only thing you mentioned in that list.

Hairstyles are certainly not down to societal influence, the reason women with long hair look much more attractive than short-haired women to men is because long, healthy hair signals that the woman is healthy herself. Sure, anyone can have healthy hair nowadays but this was much harder to achieve throughout most of humanity's existence due to poor availability of nutrients and therefore only the fittest, most suitable for procreation women had such hair. The brain still finds such things attractive because it has not caught up with the pace of industrial and societal progress and essentially still believes we're living in a desert. It should be quite evident that it's nearly impossible to change what people find attractive -- despite years of constant criticism, men still aren't attracted to fat women and no amount of 'fat is beautiful' rhetoric is ever going to change that.

Same thing goes for manner of speech, women find deep, confident and commanding male voices attractive as this signals high testosterone because androgens elongate the vocal cords and deepen the voice as the boy undergoes puberty. A man who speaks with a high-pitched, timid voice is not attractive to women as this signals low testosterone, which is not exactly a desirable trait for procreation.

Clothing is nothing more than a way for women and men to emphasise their particular physical traits that make them attractive to the opposite sex -- breasts, thighs and ass for women and broad shoulders, chest, tapered waist for men.

There is very little societal influence in most things because biology dictates culture, not the other way around.
(edited 6 years ago)
Reply 14
Original post by ilem
Hairstyles are certainly not down to societal influence, the reason women with long hair look much more attractive than short-haired women to men is because long, healthy hair signals that the woman is healthy herself. Sure, anyone can have healthy hair nowadays but this was much harder to achieve throughout most of humanity's existence due to poor availability of nutrients and therefore only the fittest, most suitable for procreation women had such hair. The brain still finds such things attractive because it has not caught up with the pace of industrial and societal progress and essentially still believes we're living in a desert.


This is unsubstantiated pseudoscience.

Original post by ilem
It should be quite evident that it's nearly impossible to change what people find attractive -- despite years of constant criticism, men still aren't attracted to fat women and no amount of 'fat is beautiful' rhetoric is ever going to change that.


On the contrary, what people find attractive changes all the time. There are plenty of cultures around the world where plumpness is encouraged, along with other traits that in Western countries would be seen as undesirable by the majority of people.

Original post by ilem
Same thing goes for manner of speech, women find deep, confident and commanding male voices attractive as this signals high testosterone because androgens elongate the vocal cords and deepen the voice as the boy undergoes puberty. A man who speaks with a high-pitched, timid voice is not attractive to women as this signals low testosterone, which is not exactly a desirable trait for procreation.


This is not what I meant by manner of speech. Obviously there is a biological aspect to speech (mens voices are deeper) but there are non-biological influences as well.

Original post by ilem
Clothing is nothing more than a way for women and men to emphasise their particular physical traits that make them attractive to the opposite sex -- breasts, thighs and ass for women and broad shoulders, chest, tapered waist for men.


So why do men wear neckties and women paint their nails?

Original post by ilem
There is very little societal influence in most things because biology dictates culture, not the other way around.


Biology does dicate culture, but that doesn't mean that biology is culture (or that culture is biology). It should be pretty obvious that many assumptions we have about gender are a result of tradition and upbringing rather than any biolological need or influence.
Original post by ilem
Colour was not the only thing you mentioned in that list.

Hairstyles are certainly not down to societal influence, the reason women with long hair look much more attractive than short-haired women to men is because long, healthy hair signals that the woman is healthy herself. Sure, anyone can have healthy hair nowadays but this was much harder to achieve throughout most of humanity's existence due to poor availability of nutrients and therefore only the fittest, most suitable for procreation women had such hair. The brain still finds such things attractive because it has not caught up with the pace of industrial and societal progress and essentially still believes we're living in a desert. It should be quite evident that it's nearly impossible to change what people find attractive -- despite years of constant criticism, men still aren't attracted to fat women and no amount of 'fat is beautiful' rhetoric is ever going to change that.

Same thing goes for manner of speech, women find deep, confident and commanding male voices attractive as this signals high testosterone because androgens elongate the vocal cords and deepen the voice as the boy undergoes puberty. A man who speaks with a high-pitched, timid voice is not attractive to women as this signals low testosterone, which is not exactly a desirable trait for procreation.

Clothing is nothing more than a way for women and men to emphasise their particular physical traits that make them attractive to the opposite sex -- breasts, thighs and ass for women and broad shoulders, chest, tapered waist for men.

There is very little societal influence in most things because biology dictates culture, not the other way around.


If we're playing the evopsych game even though it's pretty much absolute piffle, fat would be attractive as it signals reliable access to food, which would be desirable in a mate.
Original post by ilem
...There is very little societal influence in most things because biology dictates culture, not the other way around.


But 'dictate' is the wrong word seeing as plenty of people do step outside of norms deemed to have biological origins. Things that biology does actually dictate, like breathing to stay alive, aren't subject to heated debates.
Original post by Dez
It makes plenty of sense if you're willing to educate yourself on some basic psychology and sociology. It's really not rocket science.

We have a set of male/female principles that are inherently biological/physical (genitals, sexual dimorphism, childbirth) and we have a set of male/female principles that are not biological (clothing, hairstyles, manner of speech, pronouns, even colours). In most circumstances, set B is more prominent in our lives than set A.

Transgender and transsexual are not the same thing. They are linked, and many people experience both at the same time. But there is no law saying that someone has to be both or neither. Just as there is no law saying girls must wear skirts (in most countries anyway).

Being trans is complex. There's an awful lot we don't really know much about how the mind works, and the research being done into transgenderism/trassexualism certainly has a long way to go. What is obvious is that, as with most pyschological conditions, not everyone experiences the same thing. Some people know from a very young age that they're "born into the wrong body", others may simply feel more uncomfortable in society as they grow and learn about it. It's not an easy thing to work out but we've made a lot of progress, and there are many avenues available to people experiencing gender dysphoria that have never existed before. We're improving as we go.

Hopefully that clarifies some things. Feel free to ask questions.


You haven't clarified a thing.

Please explain how gender is both a social construct and something people innately identify with. Because those two ideas are in conflict with one another.
Reply 18
Original post by Dandaman1
You haven't clarified a thing.

Please explain how gender is both a social construct and something people innately identify with. Because those two ideas are in conflict with one another.


People identify with loads of different social constructs. You'd be really hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't have at least a few they identify with.

Gym bunny, green thumb, couch potato, frugal, vegan, gypsy, Christian, environmentalist. And many others. More possibilities than you can count really. And all of them essentially just a rough set of behaviours attributed to a simple phrase.

Is it really so difficult to wrap your head around the idea that the phrases male and female can be looked at in the same light? That "male" has a set of behaviours and characteristics assoicated with it separate to biological sex? That is in essence what we're talking about here.
Original post by Axiomasher
Meh, why should we be upset because a person - who we probably don't know anyway - feels more like a man than a woman (or vice versa) and it happens to be at odds with the kind of tackle they have? What happened to live and let live?


It’s not live and let live though. Not if I’m expected to positively affirm that as correct even if I don’t believe it is.

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