Transgender athletes wishing to join the other gender competition?
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I noticed also your attempting to politicise this issue which is wrong, politics have no place being invoked into this issue, this is purely about the biological physical ability of a male versus a female.
If you continue to invoke political and irrelevant side comments that do not actually deal with the physical advantage a male has over a female it only looks devisive and manipulative, attempting to confuse and muddy the issue with political smears that have nothing to do with the actual issue of male physiology versus female physiology highlights the fact that you are doing this because you cannot convince people that a biological male doesn’t have a physical advantage over a biological female and you cannot convince people because it’s a clear biological fact that they DO and everyone knows this, so please end the madness, it should be a level playing field for all!
If you continue to invoke political and irrelevant side comments that do not actually deal with the physical advantage a male has over a female it only looks devisive and manipulative, attempting to confuse and muddy the issue with political smears that have nothing to do with the actual issue of male physiology versus female physiology highlights the fact that you are doing this because you cannot convince people that a biological male doesn’t have a physical advantage over a biological female and you cannot convince people because it’s a clear biological fact that they DO and everyone knows this, so please end the madness, it should be a level playing field for all!
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
What absolute rubbish. Muscle density is meaningless in this - there's a reason why even cis people require hormone replacement therapy if they have to have a gonadectomy for whatever reason (also some post menopausal women); it's that hormone levels determine physical structures like bone and muscle density, and that's ongoing. A bloke who loses his testes to cancer for instance will end up with reduced muscle mass and osteoporosis without use of testosterone boosters. Other skeletal traits like shoulder breadth are currently unalterable, however you make the mistake of thinking that general trends are applicable on an individual level; but actual trends of trans people in sports doesn't follow that up. While Martina Navratilova while whine, she'd do well to remember even back in the 70s she was playing trans athletes (Renee Richards) and won every fixture against Renee. While Fallon Fox has a pretty good win rate in MMA (5-1), it's no better than a number of top fighters like Rhonda Rousey (12-1). Rachel McKinnon may have won a title recently but she's been cycling for years without note (because she didn't win it). Trans women are already in women's sports and they're not dominating it like you claim.
There are issues with sport that participation by transgender people presents, like trans men who are receiving HRT are taking steroids, it'd be doping if they were AMAB and how would doping rules work in such a scenario, but they're not being helped or introduced by transphobic organisations like your own (the capitalisation of Fair Play is a clear giveaway - get your house in order and stop pretending to be feminists while allying with the American far right).
There are issues with sport that participation by transgender people presents, like trans men who are receiving HRT are taking steroids, it'd be doping if they were AMAB and how would doping rules work in such a scenario, but they're not being helped or introduced by transphobic organisations like your own (the capitalisation of Fair Play is a clear giveaway - get your house in order and stop pretending to be feminists while allying with the American far right).
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Fairplay1234
The ONLY issue here is the basic biological facts of male versus female biology do not invoke the myriad of issues regarding the rights of trans -people that has no place being mentioned in this issue no one is trying to deny anyone their rights, this is about protecting the rights of the female athletes all of which will agree that it is unfair for a biological man to be allowed to compete against them.
Everything you are saying is just words, and none of those words will ever change the fact that biological males have a physical advantage over biological females.
In 30-50 years time when the number of trans women athletes increase the number of champion top level trans women athletes will also increase, and because these transwomen will have a biological advantage over the biological women they are competing against they will eventually dominate women’s sport, and biological women will become the novelty in top level champions.
There is no other outcome to this, unless all the irrelevant issues and words you can invoke and mix into this issue can change the facts of male vs female biology?.. which is what you are attempting to do here.
Biological Women in professional top level sports have a bleak future and it’s sad because any young gifted biological girls who were considering a career in professional sport will be watching this now as it unfolds and they will choose something different because they know it’s a glass ceiling now as they will not be able to compete with a top level trans woman.
This madness has to end, physical sport is based on physical excellence, someone born as a male has a physical advantage over someone born as a female FACT, gender rhetoric and trans rights have absolutely nothing to do with it.
I just cannot understand what satisfaction can be gained for someone born as a man who knows they have a physical advantage over the women they are competing against.
I am a lesbian and I can relate to people who feel they need to reassign their gender but I cannot see where the satisfaction lies for a biological man to want to compete against and beat women in physical competitive sports it’s wrong.
No amount of gender rhetoric from the people attempting to normalise this madness can distort the facts of male versus female biology when it comes to physical competitive sports.
Just like men and woman already have to do, trans athletes must compete within their own category if they do not want to compete in their biological category it is the only fair way to go for EVERYONE not just the trans-athletes which is the sad irony of all this, in this crusade for equality in sport you are actually trampling all over the rights of the biological female athletes in the name of equality, absolute madness.
Everything you are saying is just words, and none of those words will ever change the fact that biological males have a physical advantage over biological females.
In 30-50 years time when the number of trans women athletes increase the number of champion top level trans women athletes will also increase, and because these transwomen will have a biological advantage over the biological women they are competing against they will eventually dominate women’s sport, and biological women will become the novelty in top level champions.
There is no other outcome to this, unless all the irrelevant issues and words you can invoke and mix into this issue can change the facts of male vs female biology?.. which is what you are attempting to do here.
Biological Women in professional top level sports have a bleak future and it’s sad because any young gifted biological girls who were considering a career in professional sport will be watching this now as it unfolds and they will choose something different because they know it’s a glass ceiling now as they will not be able to compete with a top level trans woman.
This madness has to end, physical sport is based on physical excellence, someone born as a male has a physical advantage over someone born as a female FACT, gender rhetoric and trans rights have absolutely nothing to do with it.
I just cannot understand what satisfaction can be gained for someone born as a man who knows they have a physical advantage over the women they are competing against.
I am a lesbian and I can relate to people who feel they need to reassign their gender but I cannot see where the satisfaction lies for a biological man to want to compete against and beat women in physical competitive sports it’s wrong.
No amount of gender rhetoric from the people attempting to normalise this madness can distort the facts of male versus female biology when it comes to physical competitive sports.
Just like men and woman already have to do, trans athletes must compete within their own category if they do not want to compete in their biological category it is the only fair way to go for EVERYONE not just the trans-athletes which is the sad irony of all this, in this crusade for equality in sport you are actually trampling all over the rights of the biological female athletes in the name of equality, absolute madness.
Original post by Fairplay1234
I noticed also your attempting to politicise this issue which is wrong, politics have no place being invoked into this issue, this is purely about the biological physical ability of a male versus a female.
If you continue to invoke political and irrelevant side comments that do not actually deal with the physical advantage a male has over a female it only looks devisive and manipulative, attempting to confuse and muddy the issue with political smears that have nothing to do with the actual issue of male physiology versus female physiology highlights the fact that you are doing this because you cannot convince people that a biological male doesn’t have a physical over a biological female and you cannot convince people because it’s a clear biological fact that they DO and everyone knows this, so please end the madness, it should be a level playing field for all!
If you continue to invoke political and irrelevant side comments that do not actually deal with the physical advantage a male has over a female it only looks devisive and manipulative, attempting to confuse and muddy the issue with political smears that have nothing to do with the actual issue of male physiology versus female physiology highlights the fact that you are doing this because you cannot convince people that a biological male doesn’t have a physical over a biological female and you cannot convince people because it’s a clear biological fact that they DO and everyone knows this, so please end the madness, it should be a level playing field for all!
You can waffle about "muh biotrooths" all you want, I've put up some research on whether trans women have an advantage in sports, and the answer is no - if you want to circle jerk with anti-feminism and baseless transphobia that no one will question, go to GenderCritical on Reddit. If you want an actual discussion, drop the TERF rhetoric and engage with the existing information.
Original post by donzie
thoughts?
Definitely not! Female to male trans are not, and never will be, as strong as a biological male just as male to female trans are incredibly strong compared to a biological female and will essentially beat the living daylights out of them if they were to compete in fighting based sports and will outmatch them in every other sport due to their stronger bones and their muscle. There's a reason why men and women don't, and in some cases can't, compete against each other. You can identify as whatever you want but at the same time you were not born the gender you wish to be so you will forever be the biological gender you were born as and that also comes with their advantages and disadvantages.
To deny there is a fundamental difference between someone born with male biology compared to someone born with female biology highlights a massive flaw in your grasp of reality.
stupid waste of time. no male should be in a women's division no matter how much hormones they take. I wrestled and performed kumite. I played sports all my life and have done so against men and women. I look at this from a wreslters perspective. a kid at 50 kg will have near nothing of a chance against 80 kg. I have wrestled against gents who look exact same as me but weigh more due muscles being more lean than mine. my only advantage was smarts and spirit but that can quickly go when you are the beginner.
there should be an open or co-gender category in sports to satisfy transgender society. otherwise, we need to respect women and men by keeping sports separated by biological sex.
I'm sure others have provided content to how invasive this concept can be. instead I wish to share news and other articles that express an opinion as well as context.
above video expresses a sport mind set to where a person with gender dysphoria. as the individual in video explains, sports and physical activities was a big part of that person's life. how would such an individual continue to compete in sports in same way? this also is expression of desire to be a part of a group and have a social aspect to life that one is comfortable in and identifies with.
this is why there should be an "open" gender as there is open weight classes. If someone wants to explore this and see how well they do against skill and biology. then there is a fair way to doing it.
there should be an open or co-gender category in sports to satisfy transgender society. otherwise, we need to respect women and men by keeping sports separated by biological sex.
I'm sure others have provided content to how invasive this concept can be. instead I wish to share news and other articles that express an opinion as well as context.
above video expresses a sport mind set to where a person with gender dysphoria. as the individual in video explains, sports and physical activities was a big part of that person's life. how would such an individual continue to compete in sports in same way? this also is expression of desire to be a part of a group and have a social aspect to life that one is comfortable in and identifies with.
this is why there should be an "open" gender as there is open weight classes. If someone wants to explore this and see how well they do against skill and biology. then there is a fair way to doing it.
(edited 4 years ago)
Original post by Fairplay1234
To deny there is a fundamental difference between someone born with male biology compared to someone born with female biology highlights a massive flaw in your grasp of reality.
So 2 months and you've still nothing of any value to contribute? You still don't intend to address the research on sports performance I posted? (Link again in case you missed it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27699698/)
How about that trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics as their actual gender (not their assigned at birth one) since 2004 and yet to date there's not been a trans Olympian?
Or, how about considering that the difference is driven by the endocrine system, and moving from a testosterone dominant system to oestrogen dominant system or vice versa changes lean mass to fat ratios to more in line with that of cisgender men (for trans men) or cisgender women (for trans women): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27572683
Don't talk about denying reality without the self-awareness to realise you're only describing yourself.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
So 2 months and you've still nothing of any value to contribute? You still don't intend to address the research on sports performance I posted? (Link again in case you missed it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27699698/)
How about that trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics as their actual gender (not their assigned at birth one) since 2004 and yet to date there's not been a trans Olympian?
Or, how about considering that the difference is driven by the endocrine system, and moving from a testosterone dominant system to oestrogen dominant system or vice versa changes lean mass to fat ratios to more in line with that of cisgender men (for trans men) or cisgender women (for trans women): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27572683
Don't talk about denying reality without the self-awareness to realise you're only describing yourself.
How about that trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics as their actual gender (not their assigned at birth one) since 2004 and yet to date there's not been a trans Olympian?
Or, how about considering that the difference is driven by the endocrine system, and moving from a testosterone dominant system to oestrogen dominant system or vice versa changes lean mass to fat ratios to more in line with that of cisgender men (for trans men) or cisgender women (for trans women): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27572683
Don't talk about denying reality without the self-awareness to realise you're only describing yourself.
1. first link supports idea that
a. historical demonstration to concept sex & gender are the same thing
b. not everyone wants or agrees with gender oriented sports to be non-gender oriented.
c. policies are written to regulate the sport and/or its governing bodies for different purposes.
one would conclude that more discussion should occur to understand both sides to this problem. as we include one set of people, another set is pushed to a side. to be inclusive is to satisfy needs of both groups or all groups.
2. Although there is change in weight and mass, an athletic person's change may not produce same results shown in link. that is an estimation based on an average. furthermore, a negative 3 in lean mass does not take a male body to be in same competitive status as female on average.
does the study say how long hormone therapy is, if it is continuous, or longevity of effects?
Original post by da_nolo
1. first link supports idea that
a. historical demonstration to concept sex & gender are the same thing
b. not everyone wants or agrees with gender oriented sports to be non-gender oriented.
c. policies are written to regulate the sport and/or its governing bodies for different purposes.
a. historical demonstration to concept sex & gender are the same thing
b. not everyone wants or agrees with gender oriented sports to be non-gender oriented.
c. policies are written to regulate the sport and/or its governing bodies for different purposes.
And the answer to that frankly is: yeah, and so? The point is not whether people support trans participation as their actual gender, what current rules are or how people view sex and gender. The point is entirely, do trans women hold an advantage over cis women by dint of being AMAB? And the paper linked looks at that and comes to the conclusion that there's not evidence of one currently although there's a dearth of research in that area.
one would conclude that more discussion should occur to understand both sides to this problem. as we include one set of people, another set is pushed to a side. to be inclusive is to satisfy needs of both groups or all groups.
Not even close to being true. Being inclusive doesn't mean treating the "concerns" of bigots to be valid even if they lack a foundation in evidence. It's effectively the same principle as neutrality in reporting - if one group says it's raining and the other says it's bright sun, don't report both, look out the window.
2. Although there is change in weight and mass, an athletic person's change may not produce same results shown in link. that is an estimation based on an average. furthermore, a negative 3 in lean mass does not take a male body to be in same competitive status as female on average.
does the study say how long hormone therapy is, if it is continuous, or longevity of effects?
Athletes would have a higher lean mass:fat ratio than the layperson, such is the nature of physically demanding careers (see also careers like soldier, fire fighters and police officers) but that's again rather besides the point - professional trans-feminine athletes are going to be competing against women at peak athletic condition, not the average woman off the streets. However, comparing the average cis woman with the average trans woman (and the average cis man with the average trans man) when looking at how hormone therapy affects fat distribution is a perfectly valid proxy to increase sample size (not that this study was looking at athletic performance, but since body makeups will affect athletic performance, it gives us an idea of what we're discussing). Treatment goes up to 24 months, and for trans women an average decrease of 2.4kg lean mass and increase of 3kg body fat on an average 74.1kg end weight (+3.6kg total) based on an average range of 18-24% in men and 25-31% in women, puts trans women at 21-27% body fat (overlapping both groups, but only in the typical male range for those at the bottom of the male range pre-transition). Similarly lean mass - average of 69-76% in women, 75-86% in men, the decrease observed puts trans women at 68-79%, pretty much entirely in the average female range.
Original post by NotSoVisualBasic
slightly unfair if a man turned women competes in womens sports where having male testosterone for like 18 years of their life is going to give them a competitive advantage.
your ignorance is remarkable , i strongly suggest you inform yourself of the reality of the phenotypical changes due to medical transition in someone who has completed or near completed one puberty then transitions ...
then of course there is the issue of those who never had the 'wrong' puberty due to effective treatment of their Dysphoria as young people
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
So 2 months and you've still nothing of any value to contribute? You still don't intend to address the research on sports performance I posted? (Link again in case you missed it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27699698/)
How about that trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics as their actual gender (not their assigned at birth one) since 2004 and yet to date there's not been a trans Olympian?
Or, how about considering that the difference is driven by the endocrine system, and moving from a testosterone dominant system to oestrogen dominant system or vice versa changes lean mass to fat ratios to more in line with that of cisgender men (for trans men) or cisgender women (for trans women): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27572683
Don't talk about denying reality without the self-awareness to realise you're only describing yourself.
How about that trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics as their actual gender (not their assigned at birth one) since 2004 and yet to date there's not been a trans Olympian?
Or, how about considering that the difference is driven by the endocrine system, and moving from a testosterone dominant system to oestrogen dominant system or vice versa changes lean mass to fat ratios to more in line with that of cisgender men (for trans men) or cisgender women (for trans women): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27572683
Don't talk about denying reality without the self-awareness to realise you're only describing yourself.
it's FPFW they don't do facts, truth or admitting they are funded by the far right
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