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pgce or gtp?

i'm currently doing psychology at undergraduate level and i want to be either a maths or science teacher but i was wondering if anyone could recommend either doing a pgce course or becoming a gtp?
does anyone have any experiences of either of these? and could anyone give any good/bad points of each course?
any help/advice would be greatly appreciated :smile:

thanks

Reply 1

Cruzaro

Well, im currently working in a school as a teaching assistant (gap year) and so far I have gathered this info from my colleagues:

PGCE

- Is more academic. i.e you still submit essays etc.
- You go through teaching theory. i.e different techniques etc.
- Learn behaviour management techniques
- University based (other than the 2 placements)
- Do not get paid

GTP

- You get paid a lot more
- You are basically a teacher. However, you teach a 10% reduced timetable
- Training prior to going into the school in v. limited

From my experience it seems older people do the GTP, people that cant afford to stop earning for a year because of children, rent etc etc.
The PGCE also gives you the opportunity to work in two schools before you actually start your first NQT post. Conversely, if a school has a good provision for GTP students, and training it can be fantastic. In contrast, however, a lot of schools simply dont.

Depends on what you are looking for as an individual really...

Personally, i'd recommend the PGCE. Plus, you get to check out another uni and be a student for a further year!

Reply 2

a_s_king

Hi

When speaking about it with previous teachers and what they did, one teacher mentioned applying for both because if you get offered a place on both then you can decide at a later date, once explored the pros and cons of either.

I would say a GTP would be beneficial for those who prefer hands on learning, in the actually environment all the time but does put you straight into the environment and the deep end as such yet highly beneficial as you refine your schools on a daily basis.

PGCE is also beneficial with placements during the course and possibly adapts your skills slower.
This is the advice i was given.

Reply 3

Perfection

I am currently a GTP student. I graduated two years ago and looked into doing both of them. There really isnt a better course, but I will give you my opinion on both.

The first thing I would like to say is that the GTP is still an academic course. I also gain a Postgraduate Certificate when I graduate and have to write essays totalling 10k words by the end of the course/read up on theorhetical material just like a PGCE student would. However, the certificate award varies from area to area so it may be worth checking this out with your local provider. I am in the north west and I get one there but there are other GTP providers around the country where you still have to do the essays but are not accredited for it at the end - ie. you just get QTS.

The PGCE has a lot more university based sessions, so you spend a lot more time in university. This gives it the impression of being more academic but in reality I write exactly the same amount as my PGCE counterparts in exactly the same format and on exactly the same topics (3 essays totalling 10k words). What is different is the model of learning that is on offer. But attending lots of university based sessions you are being led by the hand as it were by your tutors. As a GTP, you have to learn the same material from your own mistakes or from other teachers.

I should also mention here that the training path is very different. As a PGCE student you follow a generic route with little adaptation. There will be sessions that you have to go to regardless of your background on the topic. The GTP route has an individual training plan, which basically means your training is tailored to suit you. For example, I had worked for a year with Yrs 10/11 on GCSE work before starting the GTP. Hence Yr 10/11 was my 'comfort zone.' Thus my first classes I was given were a Yr 10 and a Yr 11, whereas a PGCE student would never be given a KS4 class in their first term regardless of their experience.

The GTP does also require that you do a block in a second school. A PGCE student will do two seperate blocks of say 10 and 15wks each in 2 schools. As a GTP, you are based in one school for the whole year and complete a second placement of 6 wks. There are positive and negative aspects to this.

As a GTP student, you a full member of staff from day 1. In the first term, you teach a 30% timetable going up to 50% and 70% in terms 2 and 3 respectively. I was teaching 12hrs/week by the end of September, many lessons of which where I was on my own with the class - by which point some PGCE students had not even begun their first placement yet. It is very much more 'sink or swim' in this respect. However, the extra teaching load gives you a lot more experience by the end of the year than a PGCE would. I also get to go on INSET days as a full member of staff, which are teacher training days held by the LEA. Im not sure if PGCE students go on these, but I havent seen any of the PGCE students from my school there so I dont think they do.

Now, Jesus Christ I have almost written an essay so I will make a couple more quick points and then you can ask any questions you may have. I wouldnt consider the money as a factor. I am training as a maths teacher on the GTP and the salary I get this year is only very slightly more than the PGCE bursary + Golden Hello I would have received from the PGCE. There is an impression amongst those I have spoke to that are knowledgable about the two routes, many of whom did a PGCE themselves, that GTP is a 'better way of doing it.' You get vastly more experience just in terms of teaching time alone which should put you in a better position to be an NQT. However, amongst those that arent knowledgeable I think they generally have an opinion that it is somewhat substandard to the PGCE (then again, these people tend to think everything that isnt a PGCE is substandard). I think some of the old guard independent schools in particular display this attitude, so if you wanted to work in one of those straight from uni a PGCE may be better. The personal responsible for profesional training at a leading independent school in Manchester didnt even know what the GTP was! On the other hand, I know that what would probably be considered the best grammar school in the north west has a GTP trainee this year.

I should also mention as well that the GTP can be a somewhat lonely experience. Im lucky in that there are other young GTs at my school. If you didnt have this then I imagine you might feel a bit isolated. PGCE has a big + in this respect in that your basically a student again. Its probably the only reason I would say justifies taking a PGCE. Obviously the student lifestyle, but even having people to talk to who are new to teaching and understand the problems your having would be beneficial.

In summary, choose which one best suits you because youll have no problem getting a maths or science teaching job :smile:

Reply 4

sammyrj

Thanks, that was very helpful to me too :smile:

Would you consider then that for subjects without a Golden Hello, the GTP is the better route to take? The financial differences must be more pronounced.

And how about the variety of your teaching environment? Do you get the opportunity to go to other schools as a GTP student? One of the positives I see in the PGCE is that you get to 'play the field' a little more by doing multiple placements, and then going into a school full-time as an NQT.

Reply 5

Perfection

Yeah, financially there is a big chasm between a typical GTP and PGCE student. This is part of the point of the program - to provide a more financially rewarding route to being a teacher for those who have been working in industry and have commitments (mortgage/kids etc). Im a bit of an anomaly being a 23yr old GT. Normally, Golden Hellos are £2500 and the PGCE bursary is £6000 which gives you 8.5k total (minus uni fees) - for maths and the some sciences these are £5000 and £9000 respectively which gives you a much healthier £14k (again, minus fees if your unlucky). As a GT you get £14.5k salary minimum, more if you have significant experience, and have no university fees to pay. So as a maths student im a whole £500 off by being a GTP student rather than a PGCE student. However, since I have to pay council tax because a GT isnt considered a full time student its basically the same.

As a GT I spend most of the year in my main (secondary) school. I go on 3 placements - one, a 6 wk block in another secondary school that must be significantly different from the main school (ie. my main school is a typical comprehensive, my second school is a grammar school). I also have to do a 1 wk 16 - 18 placement (college) and a 1 week primary school placement. I dont know how many placements a typical pgce student will do, but im fairly sure it is 3: 1 per term of varying lengths. However, Im not sure there is any guarantee of your placement schools being 'different' - you could end up going into 3 comprehensives that basically have the same student make up/result figures. Im also not sure if PGCE students are required to go into post 16/primary schools. In any case, a PGCE students 3 placement schools to a GTs 2 shouldnt be that much of a factor.

Reply 6

brak3n

If the pay is not the factor, why is it then that you chose to do the GTP?

Reply 7

Perfection

Id love to say it was a considered decision but it really wasnt. I was working in a school around February last year intending to apply for my PGCE in the September. By this point I had been working in the school for a few months. The teacher in charge of training basically came to me and told me there was a GTP position available if I would like to apply for it. Now, If someone offers you the chance to train to be a teacher now rather than wait another 6 months your pretty much have to take that offer. So I applied and went through each interview stage - when I got the offer I didnt debate it long - at the end of the day you still get QTS and become a teacher. I couldnt refuse a school offering me QTS status a whole year earlier than I intended to get it.

So with me it was a bit of a 'fall into' it situation rather than a considered choice. I do like the department I work in though, and knowing I was gonna be with people I knew I could get along with and work well with for 9 months overrode my desire to get the 'student' experience of the PGCE. Obviously as I have said, I didnt consider the money an issue because of the subject I am training in.

One thing I didnt mention about the GTP is that it is quite difficult to get on in the first place. There are generally very few open application places, indeed part of the application process involves the school making an argument as to why they believe you would make a good teacher - something they would find very hard to do if they had only known you for a 30 minute interview. All the GTs I know have worked in their school for several years before starting this course. I had been at my school about 4 months before applying and I am probably one of the 5 least experienced people on my course.

Reply 8

hermaphrodite

Perfection

However, amongst those that arent knowledgeable I think they generally have an opinion that it is somewhat substandard to the PGCE (then again, these people tend to think everything that isnt a PGCE is substandard). I think some of the old guard independent schools in particular display this attitude, so if you wanted to work in one of those straight from uni a PGCE may be better.

Do they? I thought it was only recently independent schools asked for PGCEs. I understood that previously you get get a teaching post in an independent school with just a degree and no PGCE.

Perfection

The personal responsible for profesional training at a leading independent school in Manchester didnt even know what the GTP was! On the other hand, I know that what would probably be considered the best grammar school in the north west has a GTP trainee this year.

Would that be Manchester Grammar School? Are you doing your placement there?

Reply 9

Perfection

MGS has a GTP trainee there, so they are certainly aware of the scheme. I am not on placement there. I would indicate that MGS is an exception to my general thoughts on independent schools.

Independent schools can still employ people without PGCE's. I suppose for some schools its better to have a Phd holder than a PGCE holder, but most people even at independent schools have a teaching qualification of some sort really. The chances of a candidate being appointed with just a degree and no teaching qualification/doctoral work must be remote.

The point I was making was that generally independent schools dont have much experience with trainees, and the few they do meet generally hold PGCE's. This generally creates an attitude that the PGCE is the 'right' way to qualify because that it is all they have experienced. So, if one wanted to work in that environment (I would advise otherwise, but each to their own) I suppose a PGCE might be somewhat 'better.'

Reply 10

hermaphrodite

Perfection

would independent schools such as Eton, Haow, charterhouse, st pauls, etc. take on trainee PGCEs? (i.e people who are doing there PGCE)

Reply 11

penguinpoo

independent schools can take on PGCE students. All schools view initial teacher training as an investment in their future. Especially if they are going to be looking for a new teacher in the following year. A lot of ITT institutions will be very careful about placing students at independent schools, mainly because the PGCE course has to provide teaching of a the national curriculum and independent schools can choose to follow or disregard this totally (or do so in part).

With regard to GTP or PGCE I have mentored and employed both. My general opinion on this is that GTP students tend to be stronger than PGCE students - please nobody get upset with this. I am not saying that anybody is a bad teacher. GTP students have a real insight into a schools that cannot be got over teaching practice. They tend to develop into teachers from the real world and hit the ground running.

This combined with the financial rewards, in my opinion, make it a superior route. However it is ideally designed for the more mature candidate and therefore age will be a factor.

Reply 12

Shakespearean

Perfection, the information you've posted is perhaps the most helpful that I've read anywhere.

I am 45 years old and have just completed my 2nd year at University, I want to become a secondary school teacher but I'm not sure which route is the best for me.

At 45 I don't have that many years actually teaching ahead of me and if there's a way to save myself a year then I would have to favour that route. Do you feel the GTP would be better for someone like me?