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Do Scottish people love taking it up the arse from Brussells?

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Original post by Quady
You realise Salmond has no elected position right?

How is he a 'top SNP politician'?


Are you insane? Do you know who Alex Salmond is? He has been the First Minister of Scotland, an MP and an MSP for many years. He is the most formidable politician in Scotland right now.
Reply 61
Original post by Wired_1800
Are you insane? Do you know who Alex Salmond is? He has been the First Minister of Scotland, an MP and an MSP for many years. He is the most formidable politician in Scotland right now.


Yet is none of those things?

Isn't Harvey a more formidable politician in Scotland right now? Othe rise why is my take home pay down by other £50 this month?

Salmond is on par with that bloke who lives in North Queensferry.
Original post by Quady
Yet is none of those things?

Isn't Harvey a more formidable politician in Scotland right now? Othe rise why is my take home pay down by other £50 this month?

Salmond is on par with that bloke who lives in North Queensferry.


What? Who is Harvey and who is the bloke from NQ?
Reply 63
Original post by Wired_1800
Come on, your point on Boris Johnson is just ridiculous.

I said that politics was about timing because at the right time with the right argument, the politicians will try to achieve their aim.

My analogy was absurd because your position is absurd. I do not contend what you have said here, but that politicians will use timing to their advantage does not speak at all to the likeliness of an outcome.

I am not a fan of polling because the supporting evidence or parameters are never shared with the viewers. So one does not know the intention of the pollsters or indeed the true outcome of the polls.

For example, I can run a poll that shows that 75% of British people want a hard brexit, which would not show that I went to places in the North like Bolton, Sunderland or Bradford to run the poll. Then I can run another one that shows that 75% of British people want to stay in the EU, where I can go to ask Londoners and people from the South East.


Except, of course, every BPS polling company will show you in their data tables the geographical breakdown of the poll, and indeed the breakdowns in other areas. You would never become an accredited polling company with an approach that is inherently dishonest.

To your first point, I said that it was about timing because the top politicians in the SNP like Salmond and Sturgeon have come out to clearly state that they will wait to see the outcome of the referendum before making a decision on calling another Scottish referendum. It is about timing because they want to see the Union implode from Brexit before asking the Scottish people to vote leave. Anytime sooner and they will be viewed as naysayers, which will defeat their argument.


Fine, but relying on Britain having to "implode" seems quite a hostage to fortune, doesn't it? It's also a complete reversal from the previous SNP position on Brexit: that a referendum had to be held before the UK left, with the idea that Scotland could somehow sneak into the EU without having to apply for membership as a third country.

It also presupposes that the SNP have a great deal of control over timing. They've potentially got to the 2021 election, we're already nearly two years into that five year parliament, the UK Government has already refused to legislate for another referendum in the immediate future. We would need some months for a referendum campaign, there would need to be time to negotiate a referendum with the UK Government, there would need to be time to legislate for one - and all of this is assuming things go the SNP's way

So we're talking about the middle of next year at the very latest, by which time we'll likely only have negotiated an interim relationship with the EU rather than the full future agreement.
Reply 64
Original post by Wired_1800
Are you insane? Do you know who Alex Salmond is? He has been the First Minister of Scotland, an MP and an MSP for many years. He is the most formidable politician in Scotland right now.


He's not a politician, he's an increasingly embarrassing figure who hosts some shock-jock style shows on radio (well, LBC...), television (well, Russia Today...) and some of the country's rather less salubrious theatres.

I'm not really convinced the SNP want him back in any capacity.
Original post by L i b
My analogy was absurd because your position is absurd. I do not contend what you have said here, but that politicians will use timing to their advantage does not speak at all to the likeliness of an outcome.

Except, of course, every BPS polling company will show you in their data tables the geographical breakdown of the poll, and indeed the breakdowns in other areas. You would never become an accredited polling company with an approach that is inherently dishonest.

Fine, but relying on Britain having to "implode" seems quite a hostage to fortune, doesn't it? It's also a complete reversal from the previous SNP position on Brexit: that a referendum had to be held before the UK left, with the idea that Scotland could somehow sneak into the EU without having to apply for membership as a third country.

It also presupposes that the SNP have a great deal of control over timing. They've potentially got to the 2021 election, we're already nearly two years into that five year parliament, the UK Government has already refused to legislate for another referendum in the immediate future. We would need some months for a referendum campaign, there would need to be time to negotiate a referendum with the UK Government, there would need to be time to legislate for one - and all of this is assuming things go the SNP's way

So we're talking about the middle of next year at the very latest, by which time we'll likely only have negotiated an interim relationship with the EU rather than the full future agreement.


Politicians also use timing to adjust themselves and their policies. When there was a major anti-immigration demand from the public, the Tory party initiated their hostile environemnt rhetoric which is biting them now. Politics is about perception and timing.

Not all polling company release their data. Come on, are you telling me that all Daily Mail or BBC “polls” have their data subsets released? Even the Daily Mail has come out to apologise for misleading the public with a biased poll which they stitched up.

The issue you dont seem to understand is that the SNP does not care about the “UK”, they are only interested in Scotland and the UK imploding will play well to their arguments for Scottish independence.

Yes, they thought they could sneak into the EU, but that was before the UK voted to leave. Now that the UK is leaving, are you telling me that Brussels will turn down the golden opportunity of getting a major third of the UK (Scotland) with its fisheries, oil and gas, maritime strength, farming, strategic military location etc? Come on. Even the EU has been aggressively trying to take Northern Ireland.

To your penultimate point, if the UK indeed implodes post-Brexit, the central government will have no choice. Think about it, the Scottish people were told they will be in the EU by remaining in the UK, then they were forced to leave the EU. The UK’s economy is in the trouble and they will then be told they cannot make their own decision to leave? Come on.

I dont know when Holyrood would be able to call for a referendum. If Northern Ireland gets a leg into the EU, I speculate that will pave a way for them demanding another referendum.
Original post by L i b
He's not a politician, he's an increasingly embarrassing figure who hosts some shock-jock style shows on radio (well, LBC...), television (well, Russia Today...) and some of the country's rather less salubrious theatres.

I'm not really convinced the SNP want him back in any capacity.


Are you in the SNP? How do you know that?
Reply 67
Original post by Wired_1800
What? Who is Harvey and who is the bloke from NQ?


Patrick Harvie (sorry phone auto corrected it to Harvey)
The guy keeping the SNP in power.

And Gordon Brown, you know MP for 32 years, chancellor for 10 years, PM and leader of the Labour party for three. Credited with brokering the deal for 'the vow' which some say swug the indie ref vote from Yes to No.
Original post by Quady
Patrick Harvie (sorry phone auto corrected it to Harvey)
The guy keeping the SNP in power.

And Gordon Brown, you know MP for 32 years, chancellor for 10 years, PM and leader of the Labour party for three. Credited with brokering the deal for 'the vow' which some say swug the indie ref vote from Yes to No.


Yes, what happened to them? The argument post brexit will be different during the Indy ref 2.
Reply 69
Original post by Wired_1800
Yes, what happened to them? The argument post brexit will be different during the Indy ref 2.


Well Harvie is still a massive thorn in Sturgeon's side.

What do you think next year's extorted policy change(s) will be?
Original post by Quady
Well Harvie is still a massive thorn in Sturgeon's side.

What do you think next year's extorted policy change(s) will be?


I think the SNP move will be calculated. They will have to wait until they have a strong indicator before demanding another referendum. To me, there are two main determinants at the momen, the first is the Northen Ireland situation and the other is the implosion of the UK post-brexit.
Reply 71
Original post by Wired_1800
I think the SNP move will be calculated. They will have to wait until they have a strong indicator before demanding another referendum. To me, there are two main determinants at the momen, the first is the Northen Ireland situation and the other is the implosion of the UK post-brexit.


What price do you think Harvie will extract to allow indie ref2?
Original post by Quady
What price do you think Harvie will extract to allow indie ref2?


What do you think?
Reply 73
Original post by Wired_1800
What do you think?


Property value tax to replace council tax

New income tax band at £75k
Original post by Quady
Property value tax to replace council tax

New income tax band at £75k


That may be hard to push through esp as it is clearly targeted at the rich.
Original post by Quady
Property value tax to replace council tax

New income tax band at £75k


So basically what Corbyn's Labour wants?
Reply 76
Original post by Wired_1800
That may be hard to push through esp as it is clearly targeted at the rich.


Why?



Stamp duty reformed to LBTT hammering the rich in 2015.

Council tax rises for all with extra uplifts for those in bands above D in 2016.

Higher rate band frozen in 2016.

Higher rate increased, even the basic rate has been increased for some in 2018

Given a £75k income tax band was speculated as part of this year's income tax changes and without council tax reform it's hard to see how the SNP will get a budget through next year.

But I don't understand politics.

So perhaps you could outline how they'll get their budget agreed next year?
Reply 77
Original post by Rakas21
So basically what Corbyn's Labour wants?


Yeah so it's hard to see Scottish Labour with their new leader voting against. The Lib Dems are equally in favour.

Which then leaves the SNP needing Tory support to get their budget through.

In the era of Salmond being a politician that mattered that'd be an option. Nae chance Sturgeon will seek a deal with Davidson's stand in, not that the Torys would been keen to prop up the SNP anyway.
Original post by Quady
Why?

Stamp duty reformed to LBTT hammering the rich in 2015.

Council tax rises for all with extra uplifts for those in bands above D in 2016.

Higher rate band frozen in 2016.

Higher rate increased, even the basic rate has been increased for some in 2018

Given a £75k income tax band was speculated as part of this year's income tax changes and without council tax reform it's hard to see how the SNP will get a budget through next year.

But I don't understand politics.

So perhaps you could outline how they'll get their budget agreed next year?


That is fair. My point is that one cannot continue to hammer the rich without expecting repercussions. Just look at France under Hollande.

Although I am left-leaning and welcome tax reforms to accommodate for a wide range of incomes. I think an overall increase, if needed, should be across the board.

To me, it does not make sense to hike rates then provide relief. You either introduce manageable increments or don't do it at all. E.g. the Goverment having an LBTT relief for first-time buyers for up to £175,000.

You do have fair points though.
Reply 79
Original post by Wired_1800
That is fair. My point is that one cannot continue to hammer the rich without expecting repercussions. Just look at France under Hollande.

Although I am left-leaning and welcome tax reforms to accommodate for a wide range of incomes. I think an overall increase, if needed, should be across the board.

To me, it does not make sense to hike rates then provide relief. You either introduce manageable increments or don't do it at all. E.g. the Goverment having an LBTT relief for first-time buyers for up to £175,000.

You do have fair points though.


What do you see happening in next year's budget?

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