Barbara Bush dies aged 92

First Lady Dr Barbara Bush of the United States of America, formerly first lady to His Excellency President George HW Bush, first mother to His Excellency President George W Bush, second lady of the United States, ambassadress to the United Nations and de facto ambassadress to the People's Republic of China, has passed away.

The mother of Republican presidential candidate His Excellency Governor Jeb Bush, thus First Mother of Texas, has supported gay rights, advocated on the "pro-choice" side on abortion, and stated in an interview that she could not comprehend how women could vote for His Excellency President Donald J Trump, then the Republican presidential nominee.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/18/barbara-bush-former-first-lady-dies-aged-92

(edited 6 years ago)

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Reply 1

999tigger

She refused medication a few days ago. i expect they knew it was time plus her husband isnt in the best of health these days either.

Reply 2

AngeryPenguin

Why are we assigning titles to Americans?

Getting ready for the post-Brexit reality of the UK being the US'****, I suppose

Reply 3

El Salvador

Because I want to.

And actually in a diplomatic setting, they are formally addressed as "Excellency".

Here is a video of His Excellency President Barack Obama being called "His Excellency" at the United Nations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j64d_tiYF0c

Here is a letter from the President of Azerbaijan calling President Obama "His Excellency": https://en.president.az/articles/20742

Here is a letter from a mayor in Armenia using "His Excellency" once again for President Obama: https://archive.org/details/HisExcellencyBarackObama

Here is a letter from the patriarch (head) of the Russian Orthodox Church addressing President Obama as "His Excellency": http://www.greekamericannewsagency.com/GANA3/kirill-president_obama.pdf

This is of course without mentioning the fact that it's equally customary for people to address foreigners in accordance with local customs, when using the local language. Do you call the Prime Minister of Spain "Prime Minister", or do you go for the English equivalent of his title in Spanish, "president"? Is the Emperor of Japan an "Emperor", or is he, like he is in Japanese, a "Heavenly Emperor" (perhaps better translated as "God-Emperor")? To address a university professor in Mexico, are you not going to use the honorific "Professor" instead of the locally used "Dr." (as "Prof."/"Profr." is used by schoolteachers)? How about someone who has the lower doctorate from Italy? Are you not using "Mr"/"Ms" instead of "Dr"?

There is also of course the convention to use that country's practices as well, hence I used American titles such as "First Lady" and "First Mother".

This is of course even assuming that "Excellency" isn't even used as a title in the United States at all. Whilst it isn't used for presidents and former presidents, it is used for some governors (both George W Bush and Jeb Bush were state governors) and ambassadors when overseas (George HW Bush was UN ambassador).

Reply 4

El Salvador

Original post by AngeryPenguin

Getting ready for the post-Brexit reality of the UK being the US'****, I suppose

Right, because clearly Britain wasn't US's lapdog when the Great Tony Blair answered His Excellency George W Bush's call for war.

It's all because of Brexit, apparently.

Reply 5

AngeryPenguin

Original post by Little Toy Gun

Right, because clearly Britain wasn't US's lapdog when the Great Tony Blair answered His Excellency George W Bush's call for war.

It's all because of Brexit, apparently.

We had the chance to be something more.

Reply 6

El Salvador

Irrelevant especially when you're quoting the part where I specifically said it's conventional to address foreigners using local customs. I am not American. Americans are foreigners to me.

I have given you official examples from the UN, from Russia, from Azerbaijan, from Armenia. But you are very welcome to stay ignorant on this matter.

Well, what can I say? You're clearly ignorant, and seem to be insistent on being ignorant even after being presented concrete evidence.

But you know what? I'm feeling generous today so I will present to you another piece of evidence, even though of course as a non-American, I have established very well that US presidents can and are addressed commonly as "Excellency":

Here's a letter from a District Attoney writing to the current Governor of New York, addressing him as "Your Excellency": https://www.scribd.com/document/275524481/08-10-15-David-Soares-Letter

Reply 7

El Salvador

"I had never seen it used" = ignorance

Being able to present concrete evidence with multiple substantiated examples = not ignorant

While we're at it, let me also tell you this:

In a post about someone's literal death, posts only about complaints that titles have been given to her loved ones = prick

Reply 8

El Salvador

America's anti-intellectualism is showing itself here.

In your infinite wisdom, you have decided that that "question" was the only appropriate thing to say in a post about someone's death. Not about her legacy. Not about well wishes for her or her loved ones. Not about the circumstances surrounding her death. Not about causes she supported or went against. Not anything about her.

But a "question" questioning the use of titles for the recently deceased person's loved ones. To top it off, questioning it when it's perfectly customary to use them. Not to mention ultimately my choice, since this is my thread.

As an American, you seemed to have decided that you can police the entire world's use of form of address when addressing people whom you simply happen to share a nationality with. Ironically, that is arrogance.

My arrogance stems from both my disdain for your questionable behaviour, as well as the fact that I know I am correct; your arrogance stems from ignorance.

But apparently it's OK because "who cares about being correct while being a snob", when you can be both incorrect and not showing respect for the nearly deseased and her loved ones.

Reply 9

El Salvador

Let's not pretend I wasn't referring specifically to your comment suggesting it wouldn't matter being correct, as long as one isn't expressing the correct information in a nice way.

And because of that, somehow you feel the need to stop even non-Americans on non-American sites from using it.

And by the way, it's "form of address" or "style". Americans do use titles. Loads. Especially for politicians. President is a title, senator is a title, congressman is a title, representative is a title, secretary is a title. In reality, Americans use political titles as honorifics more than most of the world do.

But once again, ignorance is ignorance.

I know, for a fact, as I have clearly established, that it's perfectly fine for foreigners to call a US president "Excellency". But yes, let's just pretend I was obviously saying I know everything about everything, because there's clearly no other way you can recover from this embarrassing moment.

Clearly you still need some education on how to behave when hearing someone's death.

You can say something like "RIP" or "what an angel" or "God bless her soul"; or you can say something like "I disagree with her but she was an influential woman" or "her husband was bad but she's a silver lining" or "she should've supported her party's presidential candidate, but hope she's now resting in peace" if you dislike her.

Or indeed, in any way acknowledge her death, or don't comment at all. It's bad taste to be going into a discussion on her death, and talk exclusively about anything but her.

Translation: "I'm ignorant and I think my friends and I represent the ultimate truths on this matter, regardless of what UN officials and actual presidents and heads of religions might do."

I'm not proving to you that I'm intellectual superior. You're the one who came into this thread with an irrelevant question, questioning something that I have proven to be entirely fine to do.

That is the only thing I'm proving to you, and with the hope, now clearly just wishing thinking, that you would actually learn something from this, and be less ignorant and indeed arrogant.

What I am saying is correct. But of course you won't acknowledge that, just like how you won't even acknowledge the recently deceased Mrs Bush even in a thread about her.

I served facts. I did not say "I went to Oxford thus what I said and did have to be correct", indeed unlike "I'm an American and I have never heard of this", as if it means anything at all.

But yes, launch a personal attack even when it's completely irrelevant, because clearly you're embarrassed by the fact that you have been proven to be wrong and you also happen to have nothing at all to say concerning Mrs Bush and her death.

---

It's actually quite ironic.

You accused me of being ignorant, while I presented all the facts and you only had irrelevant anecdotes.

You accused me of being arrogant, while you are somehow suggesting that your being American had anything to do with whether I can address her husband "His Excellency".

You accused me then of academic elitism, while you're the only one who's saying you're "qualified and educated", at the same time still presenting no facts on the matter. It's almost as if you're an elitist.

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 10

Notoriety

Original post by Little Toy Gun

And actually in a diplomatic setting, they are formally addressed as "Excellency".

I didn't realise TSR was the UN, i.e. that we were in a diplomatic setting, but fair enough. If this is how you cope with the shock of losing a 92-year-old woman, then it would cruel for us to deny you it.

Reply 11

El Salvador

Original post by Notoriety

Yes, indeed. I can do what I want and I have chosen to call her husband and sons "Excellency" because I want to. On a personal level, there's no reason why you or anyone else should stop me from doing it; and I was also simply pointing out the mere fact that it's used in the real world, both in the United States and outside of the United States.

Exactly what I said in the very beginning of that response.

Reply 12

Notoriety

Original post by Little Toy Gun

Yeah. I mean, it is so run of the mill, it is odd anyone even noticed never mind had the temerity to question it.

I would say good luck with becoming an ambassador and finally being able to use the honorific in an appropriate setting, but we all know HK isn't a country and so might be a long shot.

xoxoxoxo

Reply 13

El Salvador

Original post by Notoriety

The Hong Kong Chief Executive writes directly to foreign heads of state and government, issues diplomatic notes to foreign consuls (who are, by the way, not under the embassies in Beijing) that can and do contradict what China has issued on the same matter, and Hong Kong sets up offices overseas with the diplomatic status of consulates. This is, of course, without mentioning the fact that Hong Kong is a full member in several international organizations.

And I have 3 nationalities, possibly getting a fourth one in a few years, so please do throw as many failed shades as you want. Oh and by the way, in my job, I do meet ambassadors and their family, albeit not as a diplomat.

You can make it as personal as you want because you can't think of a reason why I can't use "Excellency" in my own thread, but perhaps next time try being accurate, because this attempt was dead on arrival.

xoxoxoxo

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 14

Notoriety

Original post by Little Toy Gun

I won.

Reply 15

Snufkin

Universities Forum Helper

The wife of a politician who left office a quarter of a century ago has died. Bad news for her of course, and the Bush family too, but is this newsworthy? Did Denis Thatcher or Audrey Callaghan make international headlines when they died? :dong:

He has a bizarre fetish for honorifics, best to just ignore him tbh.

Reply 16

El Salvador

Picked a fight for no reason? Are you looking into a mirror?

The last time I checked, I wasn't the one going into a thread about someone's death and somehow commented only about the use of styles for the recently deceased husband and sons.

It's not insecurity. Other people could come and read and believe his incorrect post. It's important that I set the record straight on the matter of the status of Hong Kong, which despite constitutionally not supposed to handle foreign affairs, can and do almost all the time.

You are not me, you don't know how difficult life is when I use the Hong Kong passport and people just assume it's the one from China proper. It's not insecurity when it literally affects my life.

Reply 17

El Salvador

Then I guess someone should've held their peace. Just like any reasonable person would do, when they really want to talk about something completely irrelevant in a thread about someone's death.

On the contrary, I'm able to read beyond the surface level and that is universally recognized as a higher level of reading comprehension.

Someone is talking about himself.

Irrelevant. I've said it countless times, this is my thread, I can use whatever style I want. I can call Bush "His Holiness" if I want.

And I clearly stated when it was "customary". In diplomatic and formal settings, both inside and outside of the United States.

But you have never heard of it, your friends have never heard of it, and that's apparently all that matters.

I've responded to your question in a very detailed manner, it's you who cannot accept the truth that 1. I can do it simply because I want to; 2. people in and outside of the United States do use "Excellency" to address some US politicians and officials.

Or rather, should I go for only the surface meaning of your post, and say oh no, you didn't say you wouldn't accept, you simply wouldn't accept the answer and move on, and instead choose to continue on this very clearly losing battle of yours.

You could've left it as "oh thanks, I didn't know some people use that" or "oh right you do what you want, I'm not gonna do that myself", but you decided to say things like "I've never heard of it", "my friends don't use it", "I'm American and I've never heard of it", and indeed "who cares about being correct if you're being a snob about it".

As a wise man once said, "you apparently can't read or you lack reading comprehension", because I didn't say I'm not arrogant. In fact, I said quite explicitly I was arrogant (do you need me to quote it for you?), but I said it was ironic that you accused me of all those things when you were doing the exact same thing.

It's a little thing called "hypocricy".

Reply 18

El Salvador

It may affect in a minor way, but it does affect it. How do people form their perceptions about things in general? By reading, listening to what others say.

Every single person, with the exception of the very, very isolated people, have their own group(s) they have an influence in. It matters even more in democracies/free societies, where people get information from multiple non-authoritative sources, not that the authoritative sources have been very useful on this particular matter.

And responding to him, correcting the misconception, doesn't take much effort, time, or resources from me. The effort I put into it is appropriate considering the limited impact it will have on people's perceptions. I'm not paying to have front-page ads responding to a random internet post. I posted a random internet post in response to a random internet post.