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Why do uni summer schools only let in "educationally disadvantaged" pupils?

Poll

Are experience days and summer schools worth it

Firstly, did anyone get a place on a Sutton trust summer school? I didn't and I emailed back asking why. ( I applied for Cambridge uni for chemistry) . Personally I think this is a poor excuse:
"We prioritise applications based on the selection criteria that is outlined on our website here. This selection criteria is in place as we aim to reach students from educationally disadvantaged backgrounds and help them overcome some of the barriers they may face in accessing higher education. We do not use academic performance as a main selection tool (outside of the 5 GCSEs at 6-9 minimum) and do not require students to fill out long personal statements or questionnaires. There is, therefore, nothing that you could personally have done to improve your application"
Okay, I get there probably would have been a few thousand applicants (but the original email said they have 500 odd places) but I thought Cambridge aimed at high achievers like me. if every uni does this then how are are top achievers meant to get any uni experience like this? To quote the email I think they are creating a barrier for us for higher education. I don't mean to be mean or anything, but it sometimes seems like everything is for disadvantaged people and everyone else doesn't get anything! I thought this would be a valid experience for me as I don't have any family who have been to uni and I want to see what chemistry is like at uni, but reading the rejection email I was extremely disappointed. Then they offer you a crappy experience day which I don't want. What does everyone else think about this?

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There are summer school for those who aren't accepted but the are rather expensive for what they are :smile:
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by raspberry.x
Firstly, did anyone get a place on a Sutton trust summer school? I didn't and I emailed back asking why. ( I applied for Cambridge uni for chemistry) . Personally I think this is a poor excuse:
"We prioritise applications based on the selection criteria that is outlined on our website here. This selection criteria is in place as we aim to reach students from educationally disadvantaged backgrounds and help them overcome some of the barriers they may face in accessing higher education. We do not use academic performance as a main selection tool (outside of the 5 GCSEs at 6-9 minimum) and do not require students to fill out long personal statements or questionnaires. There is, therefore, nothing that you could personally have done to improve your application"
Okay, I get there probably would have been a few thousand applicants (but the original email said they have 500 odd places) but I thought Cambridge aimed at high achievers like me. if every uni does this then how are are top achievers meant to get any uni experience like this? To quote the email I think they are creating a barrier for us for higher education. I don't mean to be mean or anything, but it sometimes seems like everything is for disadvantaged people and everyone else doesn't get anything! I thought this would be a valid experience for me as I don't have any family who have been to uni and I want to see what chemistry is like at uni, but reading the rejection email I was extremely disappointed. Then they offer you a crappy experience day which I don't want. What does everyone else think about this?


People from educationally disadvantaged backgrounds often don't even have university presented to them as an option, much less have any knowledge of the application process or what university study entails, and typically little if any support or advice on it. Students who are educationally disadvantaged often go to poorer schools, where it is much less likely to have the staff to have a dedicated universities tutor to guide students through the process, and are very often the first of their family to go to university so don't have their parents to help them either.

These students are often bright individuals but their schools, families, friends and communities are, for reasons beyond their control, unable to provide the support they would normally get being white middle-class student going to a "decent" comprehensive (or indeed a private school). The summer programmes are primarily designed to help bridge that gap and allow them to fulfill their potential, which otherwise wouldn't be possible, through no fault of their own.

While being the first generation to go to university can be a factor in being considered "educationally disadvantaged" it is not the only one. Most probably share this quality and also have far more barriers preventing them from attending university otherwise. The summer programmes as I understand are more to allow the students to get the necessary teaching, as above, to fulfill their potential, rather than "see what chemistry is like at uni". There are open days for that, which are available for anyone to attend - and some universities, including I believe Cambridge, do offer support to students for whom attending the open day would present a financial burden.

The sour grapes look is not a good one either, so perhaps take a moment to reflect upon what opportunities, privileges and facilities you do have available to you, and consider what it would be like for a student with none of those, with the same "intelligence" as you. This includes such things as "food on the table", "a roof over their head", "actual family members who are able and willing to care for them", even before considering their schools etc.
Original post by raspberry.x
Firstly, did anyone get a place on a Sutton trust summer school? I didn't and I emailed back asking why. ( I applied for Cambridge uni for chemistry) . Personally I think this is a poor excuse:
"We prioritise applications based on the selection criteria that is outlined on our website here. This selection criteria is in place as we aim to reach students from educationally disadvantaged backgrounds and help them overcome some of the barriers they may face in accessing higher education. We do not use academic performance as a main selection tool (outside of the 5 GCSEs at 6-9 minimum) and do not require students to fill out long personal statements or questionnaires. There is, therefore, nothing that you could personally have done to improve your application"
Okay, I get there probably would have been a few thousand applicants (but the original email said they have 500 odd places) but I thought Cambridge aimed at high achievers like me. if every uni does this then how are are top achievers meant to get any uni experience like this? To quote the email I think they are creating a barrier for us for higher education. I don't mean to be mean or anything, but it sometimes seems like everything is for disadvantaged people and everyone else doesn't get anything! I thought this would be a valid experience for me as I don't have any family who have been to uni and I want to see what chemistry is like at uni, but reading the rejection email I was extremely disappointed. Then they offer you a crappy experience day which I don't want. What does everyone else think about this?


I think you need to realise that there is a reason Cambridge is targetting educationally disadvantages students. They're not doing it just to look good, it's because there's a genuine reason.
Look at it this way:
You're a Year 12 student who went to a failing comprehensive school, and an average 6th form/college. You spent your entire secondary education being ignored by stressed/overworked teachers, who have always had to focus their attention on the disruptive ones. Nobody has ever told you that you're academically gifted, let alone that you should consider a top university. Although little support is given to you, you're clearly smart, and achieve good GCSEs, with a few A*s, and then As and Bs.
Neither of your parents went to University, and you come from a poorer background. University will seem like an expensive dream that's so far out of reach aas nobody has ever given you any information on what it even is. It's not until when a teacher at your new college tells you that you should be considering a top university, based on how you're doing at A-Level. You apply, and get into this summer school, and it gives you an amazing experience on what university actually is.

These students, who are still going to be high-achievers, may never have even considered applying to a top university. By the sound of your post, it looks like university has always been an option for you. I think you should move on from this, and not act superieur to those who got a place. They probably had to work incredibly hard to overcome the barriers they faced in education, and so deserve a lot of respect.
Reply 4
One of my friends got into chemistry for Cambridge but the other two didn’t. I wouldn’t necessarily say we’re from educationally disadvantaged backgrounds
Original post by raspberry.x
To quote the email I think they are creating a barrier for us for higher education. I don't mean to be mean or anything, but it sometimes seems like everything is for disadvantaged people and everyone else doesn't get anything! I thought this would be a valid experience for me as I don't have any family who have been to uni and I want to see what chemistry is like at uni, but reading the rejection email I was extremely disappointed. Then they offer you a crappy experience day which I don't want. What does everyone else think about this?


Jesus Christ... Are You hearing yourself? Disadvantaged people get everything??? They're creating a barrier??? Please check stats and look at the economic status of people who actually get into higher education.

And you will see what chemistry is like at Uni by going to their open day. I swear some TSR threads make me facepalm so hard.

Since you joined today im hoping this is a stupid troll.
Reply 6
Can I just point out that I am first to go to university in my family, we do not have loads of money and I have never been offered a place on any school I have ever applied for. I think this is extremely unfair, because I am sure there are many normal people out there who want to go and experience uni but can’t because educationally challenged people get first pick. All of my friends at school applied for a summer school and none of us got a place. I do not know anyone who has got a place. This is a poor system and I think everyone should get equal opportunity to go to something like this. Surely people who are educationally disadvantaged aren’t clever enough to go to uni anyway so what’s the point. Then there’s top grade people who can’t go because people who won’t be going anyway get priority. Seriously
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by artful_lounger
People from educationally disadvantaged backgrounds often don't even have university presented to them as an option, much less have any knowledge of the application process or what university study entails, and typically little if any support or advice on it. Students who are educationally disadvantaged often go to poorer schools, where it is much less likely to have the staff to have a dedicated universities tutor to guide students through the process, and are very often the first of their family to go to university so don't have their parents to help them either.

These students are often bright individuals but their schools, families, friends and communities are, for reasons beyond their control, unable to provide the support they would normally get being white middle-class student going to a "decent" comprehensive (or indeed a private school). The summer programmes are primarily designed to help bridge that gap and allow them to fulfill their potential, which otherwise wouldn't be possible, through no fault of their own.

While being the first generation to go to university can be a factor in being considered "educationally disadvantaged" it is not the only one. Most probably share this quality and also have far more barriers preventing them from attending university otherwise. The summer programmes as I understand are more to allow the students to get the necessary teaching, as above, to fulfill their potential, rather than "see what chemistry is like at uni". There are open days for that, which are available for anyone to attend - and some universities, including I believe Cambridge, do offer support to students for whom attending the open day would present a financial burden.

The sour grapes look is not a good one either, so perhaps take a moment to reflect upon what opportunities, privileges and facilities you do have available to you, and consider what it would be like for a student with none of those, with the same "intelligence" as you. This includes such things as "food on the table", "a roof over their head", "actual family members who are able and willing to care for them", even before considering their schools etc.


As someone "educationally disadvantaged" that got a place at the sutton trust summer school, this is exactly it, beat me to it.
Reply 8
Original post by LlamaLikeEllie
I think you need to realise that there is a reason Cambridge is targetting educationally disadvantages students. They're not doing it just to look good, it's because there's a genuine reason.
Look at it this way:
You're a Year 12 student who went to a failing comprehensive school, and an average 6th form/college. You spent your entire secondary education being ignored by stressed/overworked teachers, who have always had to focus their attention on the disruptive ones. Nobody has ever told you that you're academically gifted, let alone that you should consider a top university. Although little support is given to you, you're clearly smart, and achieve good GCSEs, with a few A*s, and then As and Bs.
Neither of your parents went to University, and you come from a poorer background. University will seem like an expensive dream that's so far out of reach aas nobody has ever given you any information on what it even is. It's not until when a teacher at your new college tells you that you should be considering a top university, based on how you're doing at A-Level. You apply, and get into this summer school, and it gives you an amazing experience on what university actually is.

These students, who are still going to be high-achievers, may never have even considered applying to a top university. By the sound of your post, it looks like university has always been an option for you. I think you should move on from this, and not act superieur to those who got a place. They probably had to work incredibly hard to overcome the barriers they faced in education, and so deserve a lot of respect.


I am sorry, but I think everyone should have equal right to go to something like this. Surely these people are equal because they want to go to uni anyway so they’re the same. Teachers always spend time with disruptive kids anyway. So what. What I don’t understand is why special kids get everything and believe they should have first picks.
Reply 9
Can I just point out that I am first to go to university in my family, we do not have loads of money and I have never been offered a place on any school I have ever applied for. I think this is extremely unfair, because I am sure there are many normal people out there who want to go and experience uni but can’t because educationally challenged people get first pick. All of my friends at school applied for a summer school and none of us got a place. I do not know anyone who has got a place. This is a poor system and I think everyone should get equal opportunity to go to something like this. Surely people who are educationally disadvantaged are clever enough to go to uni anyway so what’s the point. Then there’s top grade people who can’t go because people who won’t be going anyway get priority. Seriously
Original post by raspberry.x
I am sorry, but I think everyone should have equal right to go to something like this. Surely these people are equal because they want to go to uni anyway so they’re the same. Teachers always spend time with disruptive kids anyway. So what. What I don’t understand is why special kids get everything and believe they should have first picks.


I have no idea what university is like because I have never had the opportunity to go to a summer school because I never get a place. Nobody in my family has ever been to university and they don’t have fab jobs. Why is it only people from crap schools. Okay my school isn’t the best but it isn’t the worst. WHY is everything so unfair.
Original post by Leks
One of my friends got into chemistry for Cambridge but the other two didn’t. I wouldn’t necessarily say we’re from educationally disadvantaged backgrounds


So how come other normal people can’t get in.
You just sound ridiculous tbh. This isn’t about providing everyone with the same experiences, it’s about providing those with barriers with the opportunity to experience university and see that it is something attainable for them. You know this already.

Interesting that you’ve decided that they’re all disruptive and think they should have first picks. When you’re the one who clearly feels that way.
Original post by raspberry.x
Can I just point out that I am first to go to university in my family, we do not have loads of money and I have never been offered a place on any school I have ever applied for. I think this is extremely unfair, because I am sure there are many normal people out there who want to go and experience uni but can’t because educationally challenged people get first pick. All of my friends at school applied for a summer school and none of us got a place. I do not know anyone who has got a place. This is a poor system and I think everyone should get equal opportunity to go to something like this. Surely people who are educationally disadvantaged aren’t clever enough to go to uni anyway so what’s the point. Then there’s top grade people who can’t go because people who won’t be going anyway get priority. Seriously


Dunno what you've been told but it's not phase one of the uni admissions process... It's supposed to be some extra help for those who need it most.

We don't always get what we want or what we deserve but IMO it's better to deal with your disappointments in a way that doesn't make you sound like a self pitying whiner...
First it's less painful for everyone else to be around you
Second it'll develop the useful psychological trait of resilience which will help you succeed in your life.
Original post by lucabrasi98
Jesus Christ... Are You hearing yourself? Disadvantaged people get everything??? They're creating a barrier??? Please check stats and look at the economic status of people who actually get into higher education.

And you will see what chemistry is like at Uni by going to their open day. I swear some TSR threads make me facepalm so hard.

Since you joined today im hoping this is a stupid troll.


Excuse me?
Original post by raspberry.x
I am sorry, but I think everyone should have equal right to go to something like this.

Original post by raspberry.x
I think everyone should get equal opportunity to go to something like this.


That is why the system is set up the way it is.

Original post by raspberry.x
Surely these people are equal because they want to go to uni anyway so they’re the same.


No, as has been explained.

Original post by raspberry.x
Surely people who are educationally disadvantaged aren’t clever enough to go to uni anyway so what’s the point


I'm beginning to think you aren't "clever enough" to go to university with such asinine and uncritical comments as these.

Here is a pictorial representation, to help:




You are proposing the first image - which as shown means some people miss out, by no fault of their own. Cambridge are implementing the second image, to try and ensure everyone gets the same chance. The third is the ideal scenario but requires fundamental changes from the top down and bottom up which politicians are not, by and large, interested in implementing. Thus, the second/middle option is the best that can be done in these circumstances. Someone else being given support does not mean you are being marginalised, it means they are being put on the same footing as you.
Original post by raspberry.x
I am sorry, but I think everyone should have equal right to go to something like this. Surely these people are equal because they want to go to uni anyway so they’re the same. Teachers always spend time with disruptive kids anyway. So what. What I don’t understand is why special kids get everything and believe they should have first picks.


The sutton trust summer school programme was specifically designed to widen access to equally bright yet disadvantaged students who alternatively would not have considered an application to Oxbridge or other top universities.

We're really not special at all, I would argue we're the opposite. That's why this summer school was targetted at us - we've been deprived of opportunities and support all of our academic lives, something you might not have realised you had and take for granted.

You just seem bitter that you didn't get in but it really does not affect your chances of getting accepted into university as the selection for uni is completely different.
Original post by artful_lounger
That is why the system is set up the way it is.



No, as has been explained.



I'm beginning to think you aren't "clever enough" to go to university with such asinine and uncritical comments as these.

Here is a pictorial representation, to help:




You are proposing the first image - which as shown means some people miss out, by no fault of their own. Cambridge are implementing the second image, to try and ensure everyone gets the same chance. The third is the ideal scenario but requires fundamental changes from the top down and bottom up which politicians are not, by and large, interested in implementing. Thus, the second/middle option is the best that can be done in these circumstances. Someone else being given support does not mean you are being marginalised, it means they are being put on the same footing as you.


Still don’t understand why clever people can’t experience university as well. I am clever actually, predicted 4 A* and at GCSE all my grades were A*/A. :smile:
Original post by raspberry.x
Can I just point out that I am first to go to university in my family, we do not have loads of money and I have never been offered a place on any school I have ever applied for. I think this is extremely unfair, because I am sure there are many normal people out there who want to go and experience uni but can’t because educationally challenged people get first pick. All of my friends at school applied for a summer school and none of us got a place. I do not know anyone who has got a place. This is a poor system and I think everyone should get equal opportunity to go to something like this. Surely people who are educationally disadvantaged aren’t clever enough to go to uni anyway so what’s the point. Then there’s top grade people who can’t go because people who won’t be going anyway get priority. Seriously


You've pointed out how hard it is for you to get anywhere and you clearly haven't fit all the criteria for the summer school so think about how hard it would be for someone that does fit those categories.

I don't think you understand what 'educationally disadvantaged' means in this context. It absolutely does not mean that they 'aren't clever enough to get into uni anyway, so what's the point', despite what Cambridge have stated about grades, this is aimed at students who are bright enough to potentionally get into Cambridge but who aren't exposed to an educational experience that would encourage them to do so I.e. These students may have no higher education sessions at school that could teach them about uni or they are under the impression that uni would be too expensive to attend (not aware o bursaries or support the uni could offer) etc.

It also provides these students with something to put down on their personal statements - someone who is more financially stable or has greater connections will be able to buy books and other activities that they could use to express their interest in the subject, go on interview prep days and arrange work experience, all of which would boost your application to uni. Disadvantaged students can't do this. Not because they're F grade students, but simply because they don't have the means to.

By having these summer schools, it helps those at the bottom of the pile get to where they deserve to be in life. I understand your frustrations, but you aren't at the bottom of that pile so I think it's fair to say, we should let those people have a chance at something.
Original post by Mesopotamian.
You've pointed out how hard it is for you to get anywhere and you clearly haven't fit all the criteria for the summer school so think about how hard it would be for someone that does fit those categories.

I don't think you understand what 'educationally disadvantaged' means in this context. It absolutely does not mean that they 'aren't clever enough to get into uni anyway, so what's the point', despite what Cambridge have stated about grades, this is aimed at students who are bright enough to potentionally get into Cambridge but who aren't exposed to an educational experience that would encourage them to do so I.e. These students may have no higher education sessions at school that could teach them about uni or they are under the impression that uni would be too expensive to attend (not aware o bursaries or support the uni could offer) etc.

It also provides these students with something to put down on their personal statements - someone who is more financially stable or has greater connections will be able to buy books and other activities that they could use to express their interest in the subject, go on interview prep days and arrange work experience, all of which would boost your application to uni. Disadvantaged students can't do this. Not because they're F grade students, but simply because they don't have the means to.

By having these summer schools, it helps those at the bottom of the pile get to where they deserve to be in life. I understand your frustrations, but you aren't at the bottom of that pile so I think it's fair to say, we should let those people have a chance at something.


Disadvantaged people get everything they want though. I’m ending this conversation now, because clearly no one is frustrated because they aren’t getting somewhere they need to be to help them get to a good university.

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