The Student Room Group

Is medicine a good career to get into?

I am a year 11 student and am interested in getting a degree in medicine. However, I am worried, because my brother has told me that medicine as a field is becoming more obsolete, as technology is reducing the need for doctors. I am good at science at maths, so was also thinking about a degree in computer science, but I feel medicine would be a more interesting career path. What do you think I should do?
Original post by hugebrain
I am a year 11 student and am interested in getting a degree in medicine. However, I am worried, because my brother has told me that medicine as a field is becoming more obsolete, as technology is reducing the need for doctors. I am good at science at maths, so was also thinking about a degree in computer science, but I feel medicine would be a more interesting career path. What do you think I should do?


Meh, that logic can be applied to 9/10 things - it seems more predominant in surgery; a lot of people would still rather discuss things with a human than a robot

Anyway, like many things, if you're passionate about it, then it can be a good career path.

Bare in mind that on the job, you'll probably find the maths & science use low. E.g. You'll know that you have to prescribe drug x, but you can't definitively describe on a molecular level why it works because you have to remember other stuff. The problems are more practical than theoretical, and if the problem is very abstract, you'll probably be sending the patient to one of those specialist hospitals in London, but I digress

Don't worry about what your brother says
Original post by hugebrain
I am a year 11 student and am interested in getting a degree in medicine. However, I am worried, because my brother has told me that medicine as a field is becoming more obsolete, as technology is reducing the need for doctors. I am good at science at maths, so was also thinking about a degree in computer science, but I feel medicine would be a more interesting career path. What do you think I should do?


I'm currently a year 12 student also wanting to pursue medicine. there are many specialities within medicine and in all honesty there is a lack of doctors at the moment. medicine is an amazing career path if you especially want to use your passion for science and apply that to helping others.
Look at both courses in depth and see if it suits you. remember just because you're good at science does not automatically mean you can be suited to be a medical professional, you have to ensure that you want to do medicine to help others.
Original post by hugebrain
I am a year 11 student and am interested in getting a degree in medicine. However, I am worried, because my brother has told me that medicine as a field is becoming more obsolete, as technology is reducing the need for doctors. I am good at science at maths, so was also thinking about a degree in computer science, but I feel medicine would be a more interesting career path. What do you think I should do?


We will definitely still need human doctors during your lifetime, don't worry.
I'd say there's reasons to be worried about going into a medical career, but this isn't quite one of them.

I'm going to talk about this as a previous medical school applicant who is now an engineer/programmer in some of the areas which would make human doctors obsolete. Medicine is viewed as a service provided by skilled professionals and so people will be very hesitant for a long time to allow a robot to take this role, it's a similar situation as for pilots: even though the robot can do a much better job, the service receivers (the patients, and also their families) won't quite understand this and it's difficult to introduce them to the idea. For medicine this is even worse as most people you are treating are going to be even older, and so they have even less understanding of just how good the technology can be in comparison to a human doctor. You might find that your work is enhanced by technology, but you won't be replaced by it.

The real problem is job prospects. The numbers you see for graduate prospects are inflated by being measured at 6 months and so as everyone gets a foundation position, they're automatically near 100%. When you look at post-F2 employment stats, things become much more dire, for last year just 42.6% of medical graduates were in a specialist post within 6 months of completing F2, and the trend is that this number is reducing at a significant rate. In addition, despite the advice is given (at least when I was applying), the medical school you go to has a huge impact on these kind of destination statistics, and just going to any UK medical school doesn't put you on equal footing with every other UK medical school, with one school having a 26.3% rate while another has 70%. The foundation school you go to also has a massive impact, with values as low as 32.4% in some areas compared to 60.9% in others.

If I were to go through applying again (and I didn't end up in engineering) then I would go for nursing. If you're the kind of person who is applying for medicine, let alone one that can get a place, then you can do very well in nursing by going into academic nursing or management. Jobs are abundant, private sector only is a valid option, lots of opportunities to work abroad, earnings end up being pretty similar to a GP except you have an extra couple years of earnings and less loans to pay off. If you still want to become a doctor later on then that will be an option, and you'll have a pretty big advantage over the large majority of other applicants. The downside of nursing is understaffing and the resultant stress and hours, though those still won't necessarily be good as a doctor either.
Original post by Helloworld_95

The real problem is job prospects. The numbers you see for graduate prospects are inflated by being measured at 6 months and so as everyone gets a foundation position, they're automatically near 100%. When you look at post-F2 employment stats, things become much more dire, for last year just 42.6% of medical graduates were in a specialist post within 6 months of completing F2, and the trend is that this number is reducing at a significant rate. In addition, despite the advice is given (at least when I was applying), the medical school you go to has a huge impact on these kind of destination statistics, and just going to any UK medical school doesn't put you on equal footing with every other UK medical school, with one school having a 26.3% rate while another has 70%. The foundation school you go to also has a massive impact, with values as low as 32.4% in some areas compared to 60.9% in others.


Just checking, but you're aware that the 42.6% statistic doesn't mean the same thing as 57.4% of post FY2 doctors are unemployed or have diminished employment prospects, right?

It is now very common to take a "FY3 year" after FY2 - there are probably several reasons for this, not least wanting a break from the demands of the Foundation Programme before tackling the demands of a specialty training programme, and also feeling the need for more clinical experience before picking a specialty.

For the vast majority of doctors, the FY3 year still involves some kind of medical employment (whether as a locum, teaching fellow, clinical fellow, working abroad etc) or further study for postgraduate qualifications. Some choose to use part of this year for travelling etc, but I have yet to hear of a FY2 doctor who was unable to find work, moved back home and signed on.

If you're the kind of person who is applying for medicine, let alone one that can get a place, then you can do very well in nursing by going into academic nursing or management.


Lol, that's clearly where all the nursing shortages are.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by hugebrain
I am a year 11 student and am interested in getting a degree in medicine. However, I am worried, because my brother has told me that medicine as a field is becoming more obsolete, as technology is reducing the need for doctors.


I'd argue that medicine is one of the areas that is least vulnerable to automation.

Whilst there are a lot of complicated decisions made in medicine and computers may be useful in doing some of this, in reality so much of what patients come in with is so subjective. Have you tried internet diagnostic programs? They're awful. That's where we are at the moment.

Even if you did overcome those problems, examination findings are still very much human-based. Designing technology to listen to the lungs, or feel for lymph nodes, is not really on the cards any time soon.

Even if you solved that, the fact is that most patient complaints are regarding communication, and people still just prefer humans to robots when it comes to being told you have cancer or whatever.

And then even if you solved that... in reality there is a big transition period between a technology being available and it being widely available. For example, essentially all secretarial roles and human resources roles could be done by computers pretty easily now. Yet how many secretaries and HR workers are there in our economy? Hundreds of thousands.

I really, really wouldn't worry about this. Its at least 70 years away, if that.

Original post by Helloworld_95
When you look at post-F2 employment stats, things become much more dire, for last year just 42.6% of medical graduates were in a specialist post within 6 months of completing F2, and the trend is that this number is reducing at a significant rate.


You know that's a choice of the doctors right? The number of post-FY2 posts available is higher than the number of grads per year, and specialities like GP and psych are forced to go ahead with hundreds of vacancies each year. That's why they have just substantially increased the number of med school places - because we desperately need more doctors!

Getting post-FY2 jobs is substantially easier than it was in the past precisely because so many people are not continuing.

In addition, despite the advice is given (at least when I was applying), the medical school you go to has a huge impact on these kind of destination statistics, and just going to any UK medical school doesn't put you on equal footing with every other UK medical school, with one school having a 26.3% rate while another has 70%. The foundation school you go to also has a massive impact, with values as low as 32.4% in some areas compared to 60.9% in others.


Those are very specific figures - please can you link the source? I'd be very interested :smile:
Reply 7
Original post by Helloworld_95
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The problem lies with the amount of Doctors not choosing to go into specialty training (doing an F3 year, choosing to locum whilst figuring out what they want to do/prefer the flexibility that locuming(?) offers, moving to work abroad), not with the amount of places available.

I spent a week shadowing the Neurosurgeons at my uni hospital at the start of Easter. Of the 4-6 SHO's that I met during that week working in that department only one of them was an F2, the rest were locums.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Democracy
Just checking, but you're aware that the 42.6% statistic doesn't mean the same thing as 57.4% of post FY2 doctors are unemployed or have diminished employment prospects, right?

It is now very common to take a "FY3 year" after FY2 - there are probably several reasons for this, not least wanting a break from the demands of the Foundation Programme before tackling the demands of a specialty training programme, and also feeling the need for more clinical experience before picking a specialty.

For the vast majority of doctors, the FY3 year still involves some kind of medical employment (whether as a locum, teaching fellow, clinical fellow, working abroad etc) or further study for postgraduate qualifications. Some choose to use part of this year for travelling etc, but I have yet to hear of a FY2 doctor who was unable to find work, moved back home and signed on.



Lol, that's clearly where all the nursing shortages are.


Yes, I understand that it doesn't mean the rest are unemployed, however you should also know that job prospects doesn't just mean unemployment stats, it also means things like career progression. And if your explanation was the case to a redeeming extent then obviously they would show statistics for longer down the line. Further study, Locum and service appointments help, but you're still looking at over 20% unemployed, in a career break, or otherwise have left the medical profession, where the stats also show that the large majority of people who take a career break at this stage are unlikely to return.

Management is still in shortage, and it's not like academic nursing is going to be more difficult to get into than the long run to your first or second choice speciality.

Original post by nexttime

You know that's a choice of the doctors right? The number of post-FY2 posts available is higher than the number of grads per year, and specialities like GP and psych are forced to go ahead with hundreds of vacancies each year. That's why they have just substantially increased the number of med school places - because we desperately need more doctors!

Getting post-FY2 jobs is substantially easier than it was in the past precisely because so many people are not continuing.



Those are very specific figures - please can you link the source? I'd be very interested :smile:


Demand for certain specialities over others doesn't defend your point, that's just saying a lot of doctors either have to settle for their 2nd, 3rd, nth choice or they need to have more experience in order to compete for those more competitive speciality positions. What's next? F4?

Here's your source, pdf btw http://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/download.asp?file=Career_Destinations_Report_2017.pdf

Original post by Marathi
The problem lies with the amount of Doctors not choosing to go into specialty training (doing an F3 year, choosing to locum whilst figuring out what they want to do/prefer the flexibility that locuming(?) offers, moving to work abroad), not with the amount of places available.

I spent a week shadowing the Neurosurgeons at my uni hospital at the start of Easter. Of the 4-6 SHO's that I met during that week working in that department only one of them was an F2, the rest were locums.


As above, not continuing on to F3 straight away is still a depression in career prospects, adding time to a career which already takes a long time to get into is particularly bad.

If you look at the stats you will likely see that this is due to your foundation school, some just don't get that many people into specialist training positions.
Original post by Helloworld_95
Demand for certain specialities over others doesn't defend your point, that's just saying a lot of doctors either have to settle for their 2nd, 3rd, nth choice or they need to have more experience in order to compete for those more competitive speciality positions. What's next? F4?


F4 sounds great! Wish i could have had one!

You really seem to be misinterpreting what an F3 year is. You'll note that table 6 of the linked document shows that only 53% of new FY1s actually intended to continue to speciality training at the end of FY2. The reason people take FY3 years is very occasionally because they want to get LAT posts in their specialist area so they are more competitive. Its much much more commonly so that you can work 6 months in Australia and have 6 months off, work for Β£50 per hour as a locum rather than Β£13 as a training grade, or (like me) just because I've been working very hard for 8 straight years and just want a break! An F3 year is not career-mandated extra toil - its a fun choice that people look forward to. The fact that its possible - that a career break is not looked down upon as it used to be and as it is in other professions - is a good thing and shows how easy it is to get speciality posts these days.



Ah yes thought it might be that (although i hadn't seen the latest one so thanks).

If you look at the stats you will likely see that this is due to your foundation school, some just don't get that many people into specialist training positions.


Which likely represents the culture among juniors for wanting to continue.

You'll notice, for instance, that the % who continue to F2 by med school has no relation to how well said graduates do in postgraduate exams (the thing that does actually halt career progression these days). Oxford, for instance, gets by far the highest postgrad exam results and yet is among the lowest of entering speciality training, whereas non-EEA are the second highest for progression despite being by far the lowest in terms of exam results (or if you want to choose less of an outlier as an example, look at Bart's).

https://www.bmj.com/content/348/bmj.g2621

Honestly, its very easy to get positions at the moment. If its London or specific competitive specialities like opthalmology or neurosurgery it can still be difficult, but in most its very easy. A lot of them are done by points scoring systems, and the number of points you need is very low.
Original post by Helloworld_95
Yes, I understand that it doesn't mean the rest are unemployed, however you should also know that job prospects doesn't just mean unemployment stats, it also means things like career progression. And if your explanation was the case to a redeeming extent then obviously they would show statistics for longer down the line. Further study, Locum and service appointments help, but you're still looking at over 20% unemployed, in a career break, or otherwise have left the medical profession, where the stats also show that the large majority of people who take a career break at this stage are unlikely to return.


I think you are rather mistaken about the reasons why people do an F3 year. It is an active choice for most doctors; it is not a consolation prize or the a sign of a career that is not "progressing". The Foundation Programme is rarely tailored to the individual's needs and is also pretty rigid and demanding. Specialty training is even more demanding. Having the autonomy to take a year (or more) to explore one's professional and personal interests is a positive thing - inflexible training systems and pigeonholing your workforce early on is very much not!

There is nothing problematic about delaying the start of specialty training. In fact, prior to the introduction of MMC (2005, not eons ago), it was very much the norm to spend several years as an SHO bouncing around from specialty to specialty to get more experience (I suppose you could call that an FY4 :wink:). Clinical experience is always valuable and will make you a better doctor. Expecting doctors to apply for specialty training 15 months after starting work is a lot of pressure and a lot of people simply aren't ready to make that sort of commitment after completing 3.5 foundation jobs. Especially considering how unrepresentative FY1 is of the rest of medicine.
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Helloworld_95
I'd say there's reasons to be worried about going into a medical career, but this isn't quite one of them.

I'm going to talk about this as a previous medical school applicant who is now an engineer/programmer in some of the areas which would make human doctors obsolete. Medicine is viewed as a service provided by skilled professionals and so people will be very hesitant for a long time to allow a robot to take this role, it's a similar situation as for pilots: even though the robot can do a much better job, the service receivers (the patients, and also their families) won't quite understand this and it's difficult to introduce them to the idea. For medicine this is even worse as most people you are treating are going to be even older, and so they have even less understanding of just how good the technology can be in comparison to a human doctor. You might find that your work is enhanced by technology, but you won't be replaced by it.

The real problem is job prospects. The numbers you see for graduate prospects are inflated by being measured at 6 months and so as everyone gets a foundation position, they're automatically near 100%. When you look at post-F2 employment stats, things become much more dire, for last year just 42.6% of medical graduates were in a specialist post within 6 months of completing F2, and the trend is that this number is reducing at a significant rate. In addition, despite the advice is given (at least when I was applying), the medical school you go to has a huge impact on these kind of destination statistics, and just going to any UK medical school doesn't put you on equal footing with every other UK medical school, with one school having a 26.3% rate while another has 70%. The foundation school you go to also has a massive impact, with values as low as 32.4% in some areas compared to 60.9% in others.

If I were to go through applying again (and I didn't end up in engineering) then I would go for nursing. If you're the kind of person who is applying for medicine, let alone one that can get a place, then you can do very well in nursing by going into academic nursing or management. Jobs are abundant, private sector only is a valid option, lots of opportunities to work abroad, earnings end up being pretty similar to a GP except you have an extra couple years of earnings and less loans to pay off. If you still want to become a doctor later on then that will be an option, and you'll have a pretty big advantage over the large majority of other applicants. The downside of nursing is understaffing and the resultant stress and hours, though those still won't necessarily be good as a doctor either.


Where did you get those numbers from/is there a specific Uni ranking for this?
(edited 5 years ago)
By the time medicine is replaced by machines etc, then so will essentially every other career.

Interesting prospects though:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature21056
Original post by Chief Wiggum
By the time medicine is replaced by machines etc, then so will essentially every other career.

Interesting prospects though:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature21056


Not the adult entertainment industry
the only reason why there are a lack of doctors atm is because unis are failing to offer more places.
Original post by shohaib712
the only reason why there are a lack of doctors atm is because unis are failing to offer more places.


A number of unis (if not all of them) increased their intake for 2018 entry and there are a number of new medical schools being opened in the pipeline. There a multitude of factors that need to be considered when increasing medical school places, I can't imagine it to be a very straight forward process.

But yes, it is going to be a while until the effects of this are seen, and that's if everyone sticks around to work for the NHS.

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