University of Warwick suspends 11 students over rape jokes Watch

Poll: Opinion on Warwick Rape Joke Students
Free speech and you should be allowed to have any opinion. (80)
17.78%
Just a joke and taking too seriously. (77)
17.11%
It was private and their business (75)
16.67%
They should have mediation and sort it out between themselves. (35)
7.78%
Officers and the ones making jokes about known students should be expelled. (84)
18.67%
The university should consider damage to its reputation and expell. (99)
22%
999tigger
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#81
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#81
(Original post by NonIndigenous)

I believe it would have been quite sufficient to just expose these people in the local student paper, and been given a stiff warning from the university administrators. Perhaps in the worst cases, been given a compulsory 1 year leave, after which they'd be permitted to finish their course. Be certain, they would have been very unpopular for it. Rape is no longer "mainstream" or remotely popular or funny in Western culture. Yes, we do have feminists to thank for that. But we also have them to thank for increasingly overstepping certain boundaries themselves now, who not at all infrequently still claim that we live in a "rape culture". Bullshyt. We do not.
Doesn't really help the university protect its reputation though.
Why should these students benefit from it, when they cant follow the rules and respect the values of the institution? They cant have it both ways.
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Sataris
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#82
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#82
(Original post by 999tigger)
Yes I agree. I was wrong.
What no I need to argue ;_;

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Sataris
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#83
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#83
(Original post by Gent2324)
wow its so ridiculous how far a uni takes just a few words that mean nothing.
Lot more than a few words. This could be viewed as incitement
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NonIndigenous
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#84
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#84
(Original post by TCA2b)
There is no better cure/inoculation for being a far-left "radical" than running into one of them.

As for "anti-fa", they're just violent commies doing what they do best and pretending anyone they disagree with is a "fascist", as if they're any better.
I want riot squads deployed on AntiFa.

Though I wouldn't necessarily do it, yet. I don't think it'd solve the problem this early on. It would win them too much sympathy. Often it's more effective to let your enemies get bolder and arrogant to show their true colors in public, to let them discredit themselves, before knocking them down into the ground like roadkill.

I have too much anger towards these people. Not communists themselves. Antifa specifically. I shouldn't ever be put in charge of dealing with them. For everyone's sake lol. I've taken it upon myself to avoid the company of people that bring out the worst in me. These people truly flick a switch in my brain.

Commies have a right to be commies. I don't have a right to beat them up for it, and never felt the inclination to. Occasionally I even enjoy a reasonable discussion with one (though there aren't many capable of it without soon resorting to slander and name calling). AntiFa though... different story altogether.
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Gent2324
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#85
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#85
(Original post by Sataris)
Lot more than a few words. This could be viewed as incitement
its not more than a few words, there are loads of cases of rape everyday but everyones attention seems to be on just saying it. people that view this as incitiment are just sensitive and need to grow up, it makes no sense that people add value to swear words.
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NYU℠
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#86
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#86
I’m not sure I understand the reasoning here, or the order of events.

Did these screen shots come into possession of others BEFORE disciplinary action was instituted? Or after? If after, were they leaked by someone whose responsibility it was to keep such information private?

I’m not sure I understand what business it is of the University to be policing private group chats. This isn’t happening in public, it’s not as though other students are hearing these statements. These aren’t genuine threats, as far as I can tell from what it says, so it’s not a safety issue.

What business or interest does a university, which is a semi-public body, have in regulating my private life? Do I not have a privacy right even against my university? Should I let them into my bedroom while I’m at it? These messages were sent in a private chat, between consensual participants, as far I can tell.

Further, a university would surely be either a public authority or hybrid public authority under the Human Rights Act and, as such, must respect HRA ECHR rights, including Article 8 private life and Article 10 freedom of speech.

I see no reason to regulate mere offensiveness. As Notoriety said, it doesn’t seem to make a material difference if it was 1 joke or 100. If I repeated the same tasteless joke 100 times, it doesn’t seem to be the case that mere repetition ought or would incur liability, because it’s the content of a statement that is liable to incur punishment, not its mere repetition (excluding things like harassment claims, where content and repetition would be relevant).

As far as I can tell, the only justification the university has for punishing these students would be something like “bringing disrepute” on the university. But, depending on the order of events as I mentioned above, it could be the case that the investigation or punishment brought about the leak of information — in which case, but for the university’s unnecessary intervention, such disrepute wouldn’t have occurred because the information wouldn’t have been made public.
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TCA2b
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Gent2324)
its not more than a few words, there are loads of cases of rape everyday but everyones attention seems to be on just saying it. people that view this as incitiment are just sensitive and need to grow up, it makes no sense that people add value to swear words.
It's cheap posturing/virtue signalling. It's easy to "condemn" situations like this, which really are just words, whilst failing to realise that what is actually a threat to genuine rape victims is the sheer amount of fabricated rape claims out there, as well as police incompetence in dealing with these cases at the investigative level, meaning many of these cases will now have to be revisited.
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NonIndigenous
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#88
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#88
(Original post by 999tigger)
Doesn't really help the university protect its reputation though.
Why should these students benefit from it, when they cant follow the rules and respect the values of the institution? They cant have it both ways.
The university does have a right to protect its reputation. I don't begrudge them for it. They're doing what is in their self-interest. But they're also doing this under the partial pressure of a overbearing left-wing influence in our culture that would crucify the university if they did anything less to those students.

I'm criticizing this left-wing influence. And I suppose to some extent I'm also criticizing the people that cower to and comply with it... which would be the university, although they're one-level down the hierarchy here, so I'm less concerned with them. They need students to enroll, in order to survive as an institution and maintain their relevance in the education sector... like any other university or school.
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TCA2b
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#89
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#89
(Original post by NonIndigenous)
I want riot squads deployed on AntiFa.

Though I wouldn't necessarily do it, yet. I don't think it'd solve the problem this early on. It would win them too much sympathy. Often it's more effective to let your enemies get bolder and arrogant to show their true colors in public, to let them discredit themselves, before knocking them down into the ground like roadkill.

I have too much anger towards these people. Not communists themselves. Antifa specifically. I shouldn't ever be put in charge of dealing with them. For everyone's sake lol. I've taken it upon myself to avoid the company of people that bring out the worst in me. These people truly flick a switch in my brain.

Commies have a right to be commies. I don't have a right to beat them up for it, and never felt the inclination to. Occasionally I even enjoy a reasonable discussion with one (though there aren't many capable of it without soon resorting to slander and name calling). AntiFa though... different story altogether.
Yeah, once they turn violent, I think the police should be dealing with them accordingly, but whether they possess the means, permission or wherewithal to do so is another question.

Then there's the whole stupid Theresa May approach to it, which is about as enlightened as an ostrich dunking its head in the ground. Pointless hot air to make her look better than she is.
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Axiomasher
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#90
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#90
(Original post by NonIndigenous)
The university does have a right to protect its reputation. I don't begrudge them for it. They're doing what is in their self-interest. But they're also doing this under the partial pressure of a overbearing left-wing influence in our culture...
That's very Daily Mail of you
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TCA2b
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#91
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#91
(Original post by NonIndigenous)
The university does have a right to protect its reputation. I don't begrudge them for it. They're doing what is in their self-interest. But they're also doing this under the partial pressure of a overbearing left-wing influence in our culture that would crucify the university if they did anything less to those students.

I'm criticizing this left-wing influence. And I suppose to some extent I'm also criticizing the people that cower to and comply with it... which would be the university, although they're one-level down the hierarchy here, so I'm less concerned with them. They need students to enroll, in order to survive as an institution and maintain their relevance in the education sector... like any other university or school.
I'd question whether it even protects their reputation and, if so, on what basis. If media outlets are the reason for it, through their one-sided, frenzied, piecemeal reporting of it, then they need to be brought to task. I personally lose respect for these universities (really, any organisation) whenever they just keel over every non-event out there that will pass over in but a few weeks, if not days, and which only matter to the most zealous of SJW fruitcakes on any significant level.
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Afforestation
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#92
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#92
Should have spent their time beating the **** out of potential rapists instead of making jokes
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NonIndigenous
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#93
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#93
(Original post by Axiomasher)
That's very Daily Mail of you
I don't actually read the Daily Mail, unless by coincidence due to following a link somewhere. Though if they say this is the case... are they 'wrong' about it?

As you probably know me by now, I could go into more detail and give you paragraphs of 'bluster' (lol) justifying my position. You've probably read what I have to say before already anyway, so I don't I'd change your mind much after the nth time. I also have coursework due on Friday and spent far too much time on TSR today already.
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Dandaman1
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#94
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#94
(Original post by NonIndigenous)
The university does have a right to protect its reputation. I don't begrudge them for it. They're doing what is in their self-interest. But they're also doing this under the partial pressure of a overbearing left-wing influence in our culture that would crucify the university if they did anything less to those students.

I'm criticizing this left-wing influence. And I suppose to some extent I'm also criticizing the people that cower to and comply with it... which would be the university, although they're one-level down the hierarchy here, so I'm less concerned with them. They need students to enroll, in order to survive as an institution and maintain their relevance in the education sector... like any other university or school.
The "protecting their reputation" argument I find rather unsatisfactory. Firstly, most people know a university isn't responsible for what its students happen to say on the internet. Warwick University is obviously not at fault. Secondly, by suspending them and making a big issue of it, it counterintuitively brought more attention to the jokes. Would any of us have heard about this otherwise? Probably not.
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Axiomasher
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#95
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#95
(Original post by TCA2b)
...I personally lose respect for these universities (really, any organisation) whenever they just keel over every non-event out there...
Maybe these universities need to know just how important your respect for them counts.
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NonIndigenous
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#96
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#96
(Original post by Dandaman1)
The "protecting their reputation" argument I find rather unsatisfactory. Firstly, most people know a university isn't responsible for what its students happen to say on the internet. Warwick University is obviously not at fault. Secondly, by suspending them and making a big issue of it, it counterintuitively brought more attention to the jokes. Would any of us have heard about this otherwise? Probably not.
Well, legally perhaps not. But according to more subjective personal standards administered by many people... they are responsible, or would be otherwise.

Warwick isn't responding to legal threat. They're responding in anticipation public pressure. Mob justice.
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999tigger
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#97
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#97
(Original post by NYU2012)
I’m not sure I understand the reasoning here, or the order of events.

Did these screen shots come into possession of others BEFORE disciplinary action was instituted? Or after? If after, were they leaked by someone whose responsibility it was to keep such information private?

I’m not sure I understand what business it is of the University to be policing private group chats. This isn’t happening in public, it’s not as though other students are hearing these statements. These aren’t genuine threats, as far as I can tell from what it says, so it’s not a safety issue.

What business or interest does a university, which is a semi-public body, have in regulating my private life? Do I not have a privacy right even against my university? Should I let them into my bedroom while I’m at it? These messages were sent in a private chat, between consensual participants, as far I can tell.

Further, a university would surely be either a public authority or hybrid public authority under the Human Rights Act and, as such, must respect HRA ECHR rights, including Article 8 private life and Article 10 freedom of speech.

I see no reason to regulate mere offensiveness. As Notoriety said, it doesn’t seem to make a material difference if it was 1 joke or 100. If I repeated the same tasteless joke 100 times, it doesn’t seem to be the case that mere repetition ought or would incur liability, because it’s the content of a statement that is liable to incur punishment, not its mere repetition (excluding things like harassment claims, where content and repetition would be relevant).

As far as I can tell, the only justification the university has for punishing these students would be something like “bringing disrepute” on the university. But, depending on the order of events as I mentioned above, it could be the case that the investigation or punishment brought about the leak of information — in which case, but for the university’s unnecessary intervention, such disrepute wouldn’t have occurred because the information wouldn’t have been made public.
Hard to say, but three complaints were made. I suspect they would have had to come into the unis possession before they brought proceedings otherwise they would have nothing to base them on. One suspects a member of the group leaked them to some of the people they were talking about or to the paper.

The uni wasnt policing private chats.

Once it fell into the public domain though it isnt something they can ignore because people made complaints and they have to investigate.

Now it is in the public domain then they have brought the university into disrepute and would also be in breach of the unis code of conduct, which they all sign up to.

The repetition would add to the idea that this wasnt a one off and was a persistent course of action over a period of time.

I dont believe the idea that it was meant to be private will save them from a disrepute charge because the reality is they got caught and the damage has been done.

Have a look at the uni rules plus read the articles.
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crecookiesx
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#98
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#98
Why don't people understand

Freedom of Speech requires RESPONSIBILITY for what you say.

You can say anything but you can't get away with not saying anything. Therefore, free speech laws could be used against you - ever heard of Free speech abuse?
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Sataris
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#99
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#99
(Original post by Dandaman1)
Secondly, by suspending them and making a big issue of it, it counterintuitively brought more attention to the jokes. Would any of us have heard about this otherwise? Probably not.
Too risky... What if there were a big story in future about a Warwick student getting raped, and then it got brought up that the university knew about this conversation and did nothing about it?
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Axiomasher
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#100
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#100
(Original post by Dandaman1)
...Firstly, most people know a university isn't responsible for what its students happen to say on the internet...
Universities have to be, or at least appear to be, providing safe, fair and inclusive environments for their current and prospective students. Reputation is a massive issue, it cannot be underestimated. Any student behaviour which places a question over that and which has become public has to have a serious response. It's not uncommon, for example, for universities to have explicit 'zero-tolerance' policies when it comes to things like sexism, racism, homophobia and bullying behaviour.
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